Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ) is NOT Almighty YHWH

[gadar perets]

GINOLJC, to all,

I must disagree, listen John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"

the term here "Sons" is
G5043 τέκνον teknon (tek'-non) n.
a child (as produced).
[from the base of G5098]
KJV: child, daughter, son

I didn't bring up John 1:12 and I didn't say it uses "huios".

apparently you didn't read vines dictionary, for if you did you would have read this...

"The Apostle John does not use huios, 'son,' of the believer, he reserves that title for the Lord; but he does use teknon, 'child,' as in his Gospel, John 1:12; 1John 3:1-2; Rev 21:7 (hunios) is a quotation from 2Sam 7:14.

I used John 1:12 above to prove my point that you must not read Vines dictionary.

so I reject your statement that it's "irrelevant". I suggest you re-read vines Dictionary again.

PCY

I don't need to read Vine's again. I already read it and it seems to me he is wrong.

John 1:42 And he brought him to Yeshua. And when Yeshua beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son (huios) of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
​

Paul said he was the son (huios) of a Pharisee in Acts 23:6. Romans 8:14 says, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons (huios) of God.

What exactly are you trying to teach me? And what bearing does Yeshua being a son have on whether or not he is YHWH?

 

[brakelite]

Which scriptures?


Adam was made in God's image, but that did not make him God.

KJV Colossians 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Adam was created in God's image.
We are adopted then changed into Christ's image. It's speaking of character.
Christ in his pre incarnation existence, was begotten. Born. Big difference. Begotten not only has the meaning of birth, but the scripture says only begotten. Which makes Christ unique.

 

[Truth]

Just a thought, Why does Yeshua say If you have seen me you have seen God the Father, I am just trying to get a handle on this myself! He came in the fullness of the Godhead, and He said that God was in Him and He was In God and that He and God were One and they would be Within us!

 

[brakelite]

And what bearing does Yeshua being a son have on whether or not he is YHWH?

YHWH ......
KJV Hebrews 1
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Christ Is Superior to the Angels
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

As an heir to His Father God, what name specifically did He inherit that formerly belonged to His Father that makes Yeshua so worthy? Not Yeshua... Not Emmanuel... Try Jeremiah 23:6.

 

[brakelite]

Just a thought, Why does Yeshua say If you have seen me you have seen God the Father, I am just trying to get a handle on this myself! He came in the fullness of the Godhead, and He said that God was in Him and He was In God and that He and God were One and they would be Within us!

Yeshua came to live and die. To live ind to reveal the Father in character and purpose. To die in order to do the same . The Father would have come and died himself if he could. But being inherently immortal, that could not be because God cannot die. But the Son, because life was a gift, could lay that gift aside. To lay down his life for our sake. Buy what Yeshua did was do what the Father would have gone. Yeshua revealed the heart of the Father. They were one in mind and heart and purpose.

 

[gadar perets]

so you know, ok.... you said, "Messiah is NOT the power of God since the power of God resurrected him". ok, let's see. you do agree that the Lord Jesus cannot lie right... right.

scriptures, John 2:18 "Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

John 2:21 "But he spake of the temple of his body".


gadar perets, I have a question, can the Lord Jesus lie? ... of course not, so who raised up that body? just read verse 19 above again.

First, there are many Scriptures that say Yeshua's Father raised him up. However, Yeshua played an important part in his resurrection as well. He chose to live a sinless life allowing for his resurrection. Had he chose to disobey his Father, he would not have been resurrected. When a person plays a vital part in something, he is spoken of as having done the thing. The Roman soldiers crucified Yeshua. Yet Peter said to the rulers of the Jews that they killed him and hung him on a tree (Acts 5:30). The Jews played a vital part in Yeshua's death, even though they themselves did not do it. Yeshua played a vital role in his resurrection and so he could rightfully say, based on the common way of speaking in that culture, that he will raise his body up.

now don't loose it, let me hit you with something else.

Yes, the Lord Jesus is the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit, God now in flesh and bone. can you handle that?

we'll see. just remember Jesus is God ... the Holy Spirit in the flesh.

PCY

No, I can't handle that. Do you also believe Yeshua is our Heavenly Father? If so, you're more deceived than I thought.

 

[gadar perets]

YHWH ......
KJV Hebrews 1
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Christ Is Superior to the Angels
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

As an heir to His Father God, what name specifically did He inherit that formerly belonged to His Father that makes Yeshua so worthy? Not Yeshua... Not Emmanuel... Try Jeremiah 23:6.

Verse 4 is not referring to a specific name, but to having a more excellent reputation. As for Jeremiah 23:6, Jerusalem has the same name (Jeremiah 33:16). It does not mean Yeshua and Jerusalem are really YHWH any more than the name Jehu means the man named Jehu is YHWH because his name means, "YHWH is He".

 

[gadar perets]

KJV Colossians 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

I asked you which Scripture says Yeshua had "all the attributes of the Godhead"? Colossians 2:8 does no such thing.

Adam was created in God's image.
We are adopted then changed into Christ's image. It's speaking of character.
Christ in his pre incarnation existence, was begotten. Born. Big difference. Begotten not only has the meaning of birth, but the scripture says only begotten. Which makes Christ unique.

I agree it refers to character. What Scripture says Yeshua was begotten/born prior to his earthly birth?

 

[brakelite]

I asked you which Scripture says Yeshua had "all the attributes of the Godhead"? Colossians 2:8 does no such thing.

quite right, sorry.
But I am sure you knew precisely what VERSE I was referring to. VERSE 9. You went agree with me of course, but that is your prerogative. To me, all the fullness of the Godhead means just that. But of course, that cannot refer to His physical incarnation period because he wasn't as you point out, omniscient or omnipresent. Thereffore that reference can only refer to His pre incarnation life. As Michael.

 

[gadar perets]

quite right, sorry.
But I am sure you knew precisely what VERSE I was referring to. VERSE 9. You went agree with me of course, but that is your prerogative. To me, all the fullness of the Godhead means just that. But of course, that cannot refer to His physical incarnation period because he wasn't as you point out, omniscient or omnipresent. Thereffore that reference can only refer to His pre incarnation life. As Michael.

I honestly did not know you meant verse 9 since that verse says nothing about "attributes". It says the fullness of the Deity DWELLS in him BODILY. There is no such thing as a "Godhead" (a trinitarian word suggesting three in one). The word "dwells" means to be housed permanently. The Deity does not dwell in Father YHWH. He IS the Deity. The Deity dwells in the Son because the Son is NOT the Deity. The Deity is housed IN the Son in all His fullness (2 Corinthians 5:19). YHWH is housed in the Son's BODY. If Yeshua preexisted, did he have a body? Does YHWH have a body or is He Spirit? "Bodily" refers to Yeshua's corporeal body of flesh. So, in reality, verse 9 can ONLY refer to the Son in the flesh.

As for Yeshua being the angel Michael, Hebrews 1 was written to show that the Son was not an angel, but was made so much better than them. Hebrews 2:5 goes on to say;

For unto the angels hath He not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
​

The Son was not an angel.

 

[brakelite]

As for Yeshua being the angel Michael, Hebrews 1 was written to show that the Son was not an angel, but was made so much better than them. Hebrews 2:5 goes on to say;

For unto the angels hath He not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
​

The Son was not an angel.

True. The Son is not, norever had been, an angel in the normal acceptance of the word. But neither was Michael. Nowhere is Michael described as an angel. Chief of the angels, yes. But it is presumption to think that such a title as archangel means that Michael is an angel. Is the Lord of hosts an angel?

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all

Paul said he was the son (huios) of a Pharisee in Acts 23:6. Romans 8:14 says, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons (huios) of God.

see, you didn't read Vines it said JOHN applied it only to the Lord and NOT "Believers". Listen again, The Apostle John does not use huios, 'son,' of the believer, he reserves that title for the Lord; but he does use teknon, 'child,' as in his Gospel.

see, Acts, nor Romans are John's writings. and as for your John 1:12 is that relationship of natural birth or a believer?..... see the difference.

now,

First, there are many Scriptures that say Yeshua's Father raised him up. However, Yeshua played an important part in his resurrection as well

ERROR, the Lord Jesus said "I" and nobody else was involved. so your assessment is rejected. I means he alone, no one else played a part in it.

also,

No, I can't handle that. Do you also believe Yeshua is our Heavenly Father? If so, you're more deceived than I thought.

well, let's see.
John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you".

ok gadar perets, who came to them the disciple/apostles? before you answer read verse 18 first.

second, "Who is the TRUTH", I suggest you read John 14:6

third, when did our Lord return and comfort them?

fourth, our Lord Jesus said in verse 21c "and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him". so when did our Lord Jesus manifested himself, NOT APPEAR, but manifested himself to them and not the WORLD? when.

I'll be looking for your answers.

 

[ScottA]

"Foreordained" means to foreknow. YHWH knew He would create Yeshua long before he came into existence just as He "chose" and "predestined" believers we existed.

Eph 1:4 According as He has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Yeshua Messiah to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,​

Yeshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:25-26)

Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yeshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the mind or plan of Almighty YHWH. This is akin to John 1:1 which speaks of the very word of Elohim being with Elohim in the beginning. This spoken word or plan of YHWH existed throughout the ions of time. From the beginning of time, YHWH had Yeshua's sacrifice in His plan for all humankind. For it was through Yeshua that we would receive our justification (Romans 4:25). 1 Peter 1:18-20 continues to explain this by saying:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."​

Yeshua was foreordained (foreknown) from the foundation of the world, but was made manifest or revealed in these last times. He did not exist as a person or being in former times, but in these last times YHWH allowed him to be born of a woman (Galatians 4:4) and speaks through him (Hebrews 1:1-2).

The glory that Yeshua had was as the slain lamb of YHWH, in the mind of YHWH, and Yeshua was praying for that glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, eternal life. This is why Yeshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.' " Yeshua wanted to bring about the fulfillment of the plan of salvation by YHWH glorifying him as the ultimate sacrifice, and Yeshua in turn glorifying the Father.


Paul was addressing two separate issues; 1) Yeshua being the image of the invisible God and 2) Yeshua being the firstborn of every creature.

1) If it was possible to see the invisible God, He would look like Yeshua, not outwardly, but inwardly via his character, dedication, faith, obedience, love, etc.
2) Of all the creatures that YHWH created, Yeshua was the "firstborn" or first to be "begotten again" via a resurrection unto eternal life.​

Also, Paul says Yeshua is the "image" of the invisible God. He did NOT say Yeshua IS the invisible God. An image is a replica of the original. A painting of an apple is not an apple. Neither is an image of the only true God, the only true God.

You are attempting to define heavenly things by worldly standards...which cannot be done. So, you can explain everything, but it is darkness.

These things that you seem to think are true are only so in a manner of speaking. That is, only according to the way the world sees the meaning of "foreordained." Which, according to the heavenly standard and not that of the world, is instead merely reading ahead in a book that is already written or being written, which only gives the illusion of time to an otherwise eternal reality in God. Your whole explanation exists withing the illusion of the world.

You see, if I AM, says "I will", He does not refer to something future, but something revealed.

So, it is no longer profitable for me to quote scripture to you to explain the eternal and heavenly truth of what you have missed in the worldly vision of something ultimately greater than you will allow yourself to consider. And this limit you place upon yourself because you think you have it all figured out, when you have not, but have only seen the manifest image and object of a parable which is not the subject thereof. In other words, what is unseen trumps that which is seen - but you will not hear of it. Therefore, I leave you to your groping in darkness.

If you should change and want to discuss the greater unseen reality of God, you will need to say so, and then be prepared to listen.

 

[Philip James]

And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth.

 

[Taken]

You mean John 1:1. I agree, but the "word/logos" was NOT the Son prior to it being made flesh.

The Word of God IS God regardless of WHAT God say to call His Word.

I disagree. Messiah is the power of God unto salvation, but he was not the power of God to deliver Israel out of Egyptian bondage or to work miracles throughout the OT. The Father has His own power apart from using the Son to manifest His power. He used that power to resurrect His Son.

I would say this differently.
Jesus came to earth in the likeness as a man.
All of His power did not come to earth with Him.
His Power was sent down to Him from Heaven being revealed as He was being revealed being the Christ, the Power of God.

Your implication is He did not Possess such power before Hewas revealed as the Son, as the Christ.

I disagree.

Col 1:16
John 1:3

Nothing was made or created without Gods Word coming forth out of His mouth.
Nothing was made or created without Gods Power coming forth out from Him.

It doesn't matter IF mankind saw the Heavens and Earth being created and made...or IF mankind KNEW BY WHAt Name He would call His OWN Word and Power and Himself.

Jesus was BEFORE the WORLD WAS....
John 17:5

Yes. We see the Father's character when we see Yeshua. We do not literally see the Father whom no man has ever seen.

No man has SEEN God, Agree.
However men HAVE SEEN God IN a FORM, that God Himself has devised to COVER Himself as His IS....such as...
A burningbush
A Dove
A Cloud
An Angel
A man
And in the last days A man, God Himself said, to call His Son.

Both passages refer to Father YHWH, not His Son Yeshua.

God IS ONE God.
John 10:30

Lord Jesus
God Father
Almighty Christ

Lord God Almighty, thee First and thee Last for mankind to Know, as God Himself has revealed Himself bit by bit.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Philip James]

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM."

 

[gadar perets]

True. The Son is not, norever had been, an angel in the normal acceptance of the word. But neither was Michael. Nowhere is Michael described as an angel. Chief of the angels, yes. But it is presumption to think that such a title as archangel means that Michael is an angel. Is the Lord of hosts an angel?

"Archangel" (archo aggelos) means "chief angel", not "chief of the angels". You are doing the same thing most Christians do to prove Yeshua preexisted. They find all sorts of vague references to people in the OT and say it was the Son (Elohim, Melchizedek, captain of the host, YHWH, Michael, the Angel of YHWH, etc.). He was none of them. He did not exist as a living being until the logos was made a flesh and blood man.

 

[gadar perets]

GINOLJC, to all


see, you didn't read Vines it said JOHN applied it only to the Lord and NOT "Believers". Listen again, The Apostle John does not use huios, 'son,' of the believer, he reserves that title for the Lord; but he does use teknon, 'child,' as in his Gospel.

see, Acts, nor Romans are John's writings. and as for your John 1:12 is that relationship of natural birth or a believer?..... see the difference.

I know what you are saying, but you don't know what I am saying. Either that or you are willfully shutting your eyes to what I write. So what if John does not call believers "huios". Does that mean they are not? No, since other verses DO use "huios" for believers.

ERROR, the Lord Jesus said "I" and nobody else was involved. so your assessment is rejected. I means he alone, no one else played a part in it.

Sure, throw out all the verses that clearly say his Father resurrected him and hang dearly on the one that seems to say he resurrected himself. If true, then you believe the Son is his own Father. You need to go back to Bible 101.

well, let's see.
John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

If Yeshua said the Father would give "another" Comforter (other than himself since he was their current comforter, then Yeshua can't be the other Comforter.

John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you".

ok gadar perets, who came to them the disciple/apostles? before you answer read verse 18 first.

Yeshua did.

second, "Who is the TRUTH", I suggest you read John 14:6

Yeshua is. Why? Because he is filled without measure with the Spirit of Truth (the Holy Spirit).

third, when did our Lord return and comfort them?

Shortly after his resurrection.

fourth, our Lord Jesus said in verse 21c "and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him". so when did our Lord Jesus manifested himself, NOT APPEAR, but manifested himself to them and not the WORLD? when.

I'll be looking for your answers.

When he and his Father come to live in a person.

What do you do with John 14:26? But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

These words suggest Yeshua is not the Holy Spirit. If he is the Holy Spirit, then explain Matthew 1:18-20. If he is the Holy Spirit, then how is it we can blaspheme the Son, but not the Holy Spirit?

 

[brakelite]

From Pastor Terry Hill.
Jesus knew exactly what His relationship was with God.


When He heard that the Jews had cast out from the temple the man whose sight He had earlier restored, He found him again and said to him


“Dost thou believe on the Son of God? John 9:35


The man answered Jesus by asking “Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? John 9:36


The Scriptures record


“And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.” John 9:37


Do we wish to argue with Jesus Himself? He very clearly said that He is the Son of God. This was no figurative claim. It was very real and it was literal. The blind man was told that the one that had healed him was the Son of God. Quite obviously this man who had been blind would only have understood this in a literal sense. In more ways than one, his eyes were now open.


There is another experience of Jesus where He claimed to be the divine Son of God. This was when He heard that His friend Lazarus was sick.


Jesus said to His disciples regarding that sickness


“This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.” John 11:4



Again Jesus refers to Himself as the Son of God. He was clearly not using this title to simply denote the intimacy of relationship that He had with His Father.


Throughout His life on earth, Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. This is why the Jews said He was a blasphemer.


Perhaps the best known time is when He said to Nicodemus


“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:16-18



Challenged by Satan


Jesus obviously had no problems with His own identity (who He was) but it did concern Satan.


When he came to Jesus, tempting Him to doubt His true identity, he said,“If thou be the Son of God” (see Matthew 4:6).


It was on the point of Sonship that the devil challenged Jesus. Prove who you are he said, prove that you really are the Son of God. This was at the very beginning of the ministry of Jesus. Satan knew that Jesus regarded Himself as the Son of God.



Notice here that Satan said “If thou be the Son of God.



Satan was obviously challenging Jesus to display His powers of divinity. This, according to him, would have proved that He was the Son of God. He was in fact attempting to make Jesus doubt His Father’s testimony. This testimony was that He was the Son of God (Matthew 3:17).



Here can be seen the entire point of Satan’s challenge. He was urging Christ to prove His Sonship, meaning to prove His divinity. If we miss this point we miss everything about the temptation. Obviously the devil never meant these words to be metaphorical (representative of the loving relationship that Jesus had with the Father). This would not make any sense at all.



The testimony of demons



Satan’s fellow angels also knew the identity of Jesus. With their leader they too had heard of the testimony of God the Father (Matthew 3:17).



They said to Jesus



“What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?” Matthew 8:29



In His pre-existence, these demons had known Jesus as the divine Son of God. They were the fallen angels. Christ had once been their beloved commander, at least up until the time they had been deceived by Lucifer. Now they were encountering Him in His incarnate state.



The Scriptures also tell us



“And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.” Mark 3:11



This same type of unclean spirit said to Christ



“What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.” Mark 5:7



They also said of Jesus



“Thou art Christ the Son of God.” Luke 4:41



Even in His incarnation, these demons had no problems identifying Jesus. They realised His true identity. Just like all the others we have noted, they did not use this term “Son of God” in any figurative sense. Certainly they were not using this term simply as an expression of God’s love for the Son or the intimacy of relationship that the Father had with the Son. This would be a totally ridiculous conclusion to draw.



This in turn begs a question. If the demons know and confess that Christ is truly the Son of God, then why do not many Christians know and confess it today?

 

[gadar perets]

You are attempting to define heavenly things by worldly standards...which cannot be done. So, you can explain everything, but it is darkness.

These things that you seem to think are true are only so in a manner of speaking. That is, only according to the way the world sees the meaning of "foreordained." Which, according to the heavenly standard and not that of the world, is instead merely reading ahead in a book that is already written or being written, which only gives the illusion of time to an otherwise eternal reality in God. Your whole explanation exists withing the illusion of the world.

You see, if I AM, says "I will", He does not refer to something future, but something revealed.

So, it is no longer profitable for me to quote scripture to you to explain the eternal and heavenly truth of what you have missed in the worldly vision of something ultimately greater than you will allow yourself to consider. And this limit you place upon yourself because you think you have it all figured out, when you have not, but have only seen the manifest image and object of a parable which is not the subject thereof. In other words, what is unseen trumps that which is seen - but you will not hear of it. Therefore, I leave you to your groping in darkness.

If you should change and want to discuss the greater unseen reality of God, you will need to say so, and then be prepared to listen.

More spiritual sounding philosophy. Your problem is that you can't refute my use of Scripture so you present yourself as being so far above me spiritually. I use Scripture (the heavenly standard) and you use philosophy (the worldly standard).

If we cannot accept the lexical definition of "foreordained", then where do you get the correct definition from and what is the correct definition?