Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ) is NOT Almighty YHWH

[gadar perets]

It is not a beach to die on.
I see no place in God's word where He tells us that we are in big trouble if we don't have perfect doctrine.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

When Paul in Acts found them "worshiping the unknown god"...He did not rebuke them by saying ... You are in idolatry..therefore this or that will happen to you.

He just showed them who their unknown was was!!

Paul was talking to pagan idolaters, not believers. His primary purpose was to lead them to Yeshua. My primary purpose here is to get believers ready for Yeshua's return by helping them to come out of their idolatrous worship of the Son as though he is the "only true God".

Paul warned them that they needed to repent because judgment day was coming.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent:
Acts 17:31 Because He has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.​

You are straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel.

You call idolatry "a gnat"?? What is the "camel" I am swallowing?

Your argument here does not phase God one bit...it is hearts that He looks at.
A true heart running after Him ...all this twaddle about Who is Who and who isn't Who...is nothing but a distraction and rabbit hole...give us something to do, but gets us no where in the Spirit.

A true heart running after Him will put away idolatry and any other sin he/she may be committing. It is the Spirit that is trying to correct you through people like me, but you are fighting against it.

 

[Helen]

...whatever you say...
If that is your passion, then keep at it...but just don't be deceived into believing that this a the gospel/ Good News of the kingdom...
....like I say...it is a rabbit trail...it will give you something to do, but it will get you or anyone else...nowhere.

 

[gadar perets]

but just don't be deceived into believing that this a the gospel/ Good News of the kingdom...

If you were an unbeliever, I would give you the gospel. Since you are a believer, then I correct you as a brother as per Galatians 6:1. If you don't want to be corrected, but choose to remain in your fault, so be it.

 

[brakelite]

In verse 6 it is worth noting that if someone was already God as many say Jesus was, then he would not grasp equality of being God again – makes no sense. Why grasp for something you already possess? Sounds quite odd and something to consider seriously.

G'day mate. There is another way of looking at this, that does no damage to the text. Now remember, I am not a trinitarian, but I believe that Christ was the literal Son of God pre-creation. That the Son of God became a son of man. Not the other way around. That verse 6 seems to cause you some trouble; have seen you mention it previously, but didn't have time to address it. Look at it in the sense that Jesus, while not God Almighty, was the Son of God but thought that being such was not something to cleave to, but was willing to humble Himself and become a servant...a man...even to death. Being the Son of God is the greatest evidence we have to His deity. Also, that word you disect, 'form', is entirely appropriate for a pre-incarnation literl Son. Just as my own son is in the 'form' of me, then so the Son of God was a 'form' of His Father, His God, even an 'express image'.
Otherwise, all we have is a human sacrifice that is short of that which was needed to satisfy the law. Of course, if He were God Almighty, and therefore inherently owning all the attributes of deity or divinity, such as immortality, as a natural consequence of Who He is, then it would have been impossible for Him to die. However, as Jesus Himself said, it was the Father that gave Him life, therefore being a gift, the Son was able to lay that life down for our sakes.
Denying the literal pre-existent or pre-incarnation Sonship of Jesus, or denying His deity, reduces the love of God, and minimizes the incredible gift of salvation He offers. Both Father and Son, in deciding to carry out their plan on our behalf, took an infinite risk. If Jesus had sinned, just once, even He would have never been raised from the dead, and all would have been lost. Of course if we take things to the other extreme, the trinitarian concept which has a part od Jesus, the 'divine' part which is indivisible from the other members of the trinity, then there was no risk...no real sacrifice...and Jesus didn't really die which makes a mockery of the entire plan of salvation.

 

[brakelite]

This is all relative to the Trinity doctrine, which is true but misunderstood, and tends to create more mystery than is actually there, suggesting that God is not One but three. Nonetheless, attributes and offices do not make God any less One...and the further one goes in defining them as "distinct", the further one goes away from the Truth.

"God with us"...is God. But all that is in the world is a mere "image", "a Light shining into darkness", and not to be made into gods separate from the One True God.

If the Son was indivisibly connected to the other two members of a 'trinity' as taught in all the creeds and as believed throughout Christendom, then the son didn't really die. There must have been a part of his divine being/nature still attached inseparably to the trinitarian 'God'. So did the son of God die or not? Or was it just a human sacrifice? Just a human body that died, but the essence immortally surviving?

 

[brakelite]

But for those who have an ear to hear what the Spirit says, there is no dividing the light of God that shines into this present darkness. If you want to point out individual strengths and give them names...it has already been done. But God is One, and the so-called differences are not a son being his own father, etc., but God being "all in all."

You are having the same difficulty as the thousands, nay millions, of theologians and philosophers that preceded you. That difficulty lies in the absolute impossible task of understanding the nature of the Godhead yourself, and explaining it in terms that anyone else can understand it. The very existence of a formula that man calls 'trinity', is an exercise in futility. Then attempting to explain what that formula actually means, makes matters infinitely worse, and becomes an insult to the God you are attempting to describe.
Yet it is essential that we know Him in Whom we believe. It is essential that we worship the true God.
"Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgement is come, and worship Him Who made the heavens and the earth, and the fountains of waters.". Revelation 14:7

And scripture, without attempting to define Him, tells us clearly Who God is.


1 Corinthians 8:6

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


John 17:3

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

If we simply accept the Bible as it reads without conjecture, and without assumption, we will know of the doctrine.

 

[APAK]

APAK, I count you as one of my friends on this Site.

So tell me...does anyone's view or trinity or non-trinity change your or my position in the Kingdom one iota?
What I don't understand here is why some people believe that all this is so critical to our overall salvation or future position.
As if the one who dot's all the i's and crosses all the T's wins some brownie point competition!!
Do you guys believe that God is so protective of His position as Almighty God, that if someone believes that Jesus is also God the Father...that it would some how deplete Almighty God's position?
Sorry I do not..I don't believe He could give a fig...but He is looking for the fruit of love. That is a different story.

Bless you my friend...Helen

Helen, well I believe when I became a true believer of God via his son, his words and work he did for me, I did not really grow until I prayed in the spirit for understanding the word of God and to know God in a more intimate way.

This is my argument and main point.

When I began unravelling scripture over many years, it opened my eyes to knowing God and his son more clearly. I will continue this quest because it not only helps my walk with Christ, it also makes me more confident in faith and boldness, and yes, my love for God, his son and other believers. It is not used to knock anyone at all. It is used here in this site to share my view that I have discovered, hopefully not by my own will, but God’s will. These views I consider important and even pivotal for other believers to know.

When I see the concept of the RCC Trinity being preached, and according to me, blinding others, I want to point it out. It does not have to be a heated discussion at all. Emotions usually surface when the receiver of this different view perceives that their cherished belief system is being attacked. And I say I’m not here to annoy anyone, and I’m not also responsible for their feelings or emotions either. I am responsible to share my views in love and with joy. Unfortunately, I do not get the same back in return as I read some responses.

brakelite just made a couple of posts on this forum and thread. He has a different spin on an area of scripture. We know each other’s differences. I will not start an argument or try to persuade him on these differences, TWO major differences (pre-existence of Jesus and the divinity of Jesus in earth) actually that may or may not divide us and suffer our hope in salvation and eternal life.

I know I need to answer him, although already my mind tells me that he believes in a pre-existent Jesus and that Jesus is divine because he cannot understand or wants to believe that Jesus was on earth just a spirit filled man that did not sin, without presenting any scriptural support. I believe they are his own conclusions that benefit something in him.

I have asked many Trinitarians and pre-existent Jesus believers what is the one major thing why they believe Jesus is YHWH. Their answer is always the same.

I already used brakelite in my answer: they all do not believe even a born God spirit-filled human being could NOT SIN. They have no ready answer and so they made one up….that’s what occurred over 1800 years ago in the minds of men.

They say Jesus had to be divine (as God or being God himself) without any scriptural support. I believe it is a lack of understanding of scripture and even a lack of faith to pray to the spirit for guidance and understanding. It takes patience and many years…

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Helen]

Helen, well I believe when I became a true believer of God via his son, his words and work he did for me, I did not really grow until I prayed in the spirit for understanding the word of God and to know God in a more intimate way.

This is my argument and main point.

When I began unravelling scripture over many years, it opened my eyes to knowing God and his son more clearly. I will continue this quest because it not only helps my walk with Christ, it also makes me more confident in faith and boldness, and yes, my love for God, his son and other believers. It is not used to knock anyone at all. It is used here in this site to share my view that I have discovered, hopefully not by my own will, but God’s will. These views I consider important and even pivotal for other believers to know.

When I see the concept of the RCC Trinity being preached, and according to me, blinding others, I want to point it out. It does not have to be a heated discussion at all. Emotions usually surface when the receiver of this different view perceives that their cherished belief system is being attacked. And I say I’m not here to annoy anyone, and I’m not also responsible for their feelings or emotions either. I am responsible to share my views in love and with joy. Unfortunately, I do not get the same back in return as I read some responses.

brakelite just made a couple of posts on this forum and thread. He has a different spin on an area of scripture. We know each other’s differences. I will not start an argument or try to persuade him on these differences, TWO major differences (pre-existence of Jesus and the divinity of Jesus in earth) actually that may or may not divide us and suffer our hope in salvation and eternal life.

I know I need to answer him, although already my mind tells me that he believes in a pre-existent Jesus and that Jesus is divine because he cannot understand or wants to believe that Jesus was on earth just a spirit filled man that did not sin, without presenting any scriptural support. I believe they are his own conclusions that benefit something in him.

I have asked many Trinitarians and pre-existent Jesus believers what is the one major thing why they believe Jesus is YHWH. Their answer is always the same.

I already used brakelite in my answer: they all do not believe even a born God spirit-filled human being could NOT SIN. They have no ready answer and so they made one up….that’s what occurred over 1800 years ago in the minds of men.

They say Jesus had to be divine (as God or being God himself) without any scriptural support. I believe it is a lack of understanding of scripture and even a lack of faith to pray to the spirit for guidance and understanding. It takes patience and many years…

Bless you,

APAK

APAX thank you so much for your gracious response.
As you know...I am convinced that what we believe is not 'life or death.'
Our firm foundation is in Whom we believe.

But...at the end of all this, one day we will see where we all went wrong..I'm sure not everyone has 'everything'..right.

All I know is...at the end...God Wins!!!
To me that is the bottom line.

Bless you. ...H

 

[APAK]

@brakelite ..differences are still there mate....I'm still not convinced...I like to think my version is simple, easy to understand with faith of the word of God and scriptural all the way...my condensed answers:

Jesus had one nature, human nature, according to scripture. Jesus never had a divine nature on earth. The analogy used of a human father and son is a false. Jesus was born a human being AND filled with the spirit of God from birth. This is scriptural. Jesus grew in the spirit of his Father as scripture says. He was intimate with his Father. His mind matures and developed into his Father’s mind, that began from birth. They were an intimate team and worked as one mind.

There is no evidence of a Jesus pre-existing before he was born on earth apart from the being in the mind of God.

The law required a 100% human being sacrifice, unblemished and sinless. And not with a divine + human -natured sacrifice. Jesus, the God spirit-filled human met these requirements by yielding his will to his Father’s will to the cross. Dual natured beings’ origin from paganism.

Phil 2:6 has never been an issue for me in understanding it. You have read my posts.

Jesus became immortal upon his resurrection and ascension to his Father. He was not divine or immortal whilst he was a God-filled human being on earth.

There is no reduction in the love of God by creating the last Adam and human being with Mary. Jesus had to be ONE of US, even though he was both the son of God and son of man. Many read this last part of the last sentence and make Jesus dual-natured. Big mistake.

There is no minimizing the gift of salvation because Jesus was a 100% human being. In fact, it shows how a human believer in God from birth can show love for his immortal Father and his future believers. He is the first of the new creation. This is the ultimate maximization and act of love. We as believers are to follow suit as 100% human beings to become immortal and similar as Christ.

Yes, Jesus succeeded with his Father’s assistance, indeed. Therefore, we as believers today can cross the bridge of perfection to salvation as Jesus’ now extends his arms with one arm to us and the other to his Father. Making Jesus divine would nullify the sacrifice of sin and destroy the plan of salvation. I believe he was a human being that never once sinned as he possessed the spirit of God FROM BIRTH.

How can Jesus sin as a newborn baby with the Father’s spirit in his heart? Yes, he had a human nature although it was well overwhelmed by his Father’s spirit. Emmanuel, if you will. He could not sin then and could not later sin as an adult, ever. The ever presence of the Father’s spirit in Jesus (with one exception) took care of that issue from the start of his life. In fact, his Father’s presence and power increased at Jesus’ baptism. Now that is something to ponder and figure out why a human being called Jesus Christ never sinned and without being divine. I already answered the riddle in a general way.

Brother, love your tenacity. May God be there for you, always

APAK

 

[pia]

Sorry I do not..I don't believe He could give a fig...but He is looking for the fruit of love. That is a different story.

Amen to all that you wrote ! People just sometimes want to either complicate things, or mostly they want to have a part in the 'doing', as you put it, for brownie points......

 

[ScottA]

One thing at a time...

In verse 6 it is worth noting that if someone was already God as many say Jesus was, then he would not grasp equality of being God again – makes no sense. Why grasp for something you already possess? Sounds quite odd and something to consider seriously.

This He tells us was Him laying down His life that He may take it up again. But we know there is no life except in God. Paul explains what that quality of God was made visible in Christ, that men struggle with understanding and therefore resort to dividing what cannot be divide, in this way:

Romans 4:17
"as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations” in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;"

...So, when He said that we (even Christ) were made in His image - He meant it literally, saying that prior to being born of God we do "not exist" except in image only. Therefore, when we read that Christ is "God with us" "the Way, the Truth, and the Life", it is not speaking of men, or even of Christ the Son, but of God. This is why He said that "God is the God of the living." Thus, we, and even Christ the Son, by God's own definition do not even exist, unless we are called. And if we are called, we are children, but if chosen, then God and One. As it is written, our "life is hidden with Christ in God."

1 John 5:20
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

Now for a little technical stuff…
Php 2:6 -8

The word ‘form’ is in Greek ‘morphe’ this word means ‘outer’ appearance, likeness, or image and not inner nature. If Jesus was meant to be mean God, there would be no need to ‘beat around the bush’ and say, ‘a form of.’ As we are ‘a form’ of Christ in mind, although we are not Christ (see verses 1-5). So if we have the mind of Christ are we to grasp and take credit for having the mind of Christ?

Jesus would have clearly stated he was God in the flesh.

Now the Greek word ‘morphe’ is usually interchangeable with the Greek word ‘schema’ for the English word ‘external appearance.’ There is no hint of ‘inner nature’ here.

It is good to find another verse describing Jesus and his outward appearance.

Look at Mark 16:12-13

(Mar 16:12) After these things he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country.
(Mar 16:13) And they went back and told the rest, but they did not believe them. (ALL ESV)

We see in verse 12 that the Greek word ‘morphe’ is used to indicate the change in Jesus’ outward appearance. Jesus did not change his ‘inner nature’ in front of these two apostles. He had a changed appearance and the apostle did not recognize him at first. Luke tells this story in full.

Even when the Jews translated the Septuagint and the RCC sanctioned Apocrypha, from Greek into Hebrew they always translated, ‘morphe’ as ‘outer appearance’ and never inner nature.

We can understand that ‘a form of’ or ‘an image of’ is not the genuine article, right? Jesus was not intended to be called God here. He and his Father worked as the same mind, although they we still different...cannot make it any clearer.

As I have explained above, "form" means "image", meaning "those things which do not exist." But men have made a god out of an image.

ScottA..I don't know what you mean about the 'lights and darkness' text at the end of your post.

Indeed. "And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

 

[ScottA]

I just went back through all your posts. You have not cited one Scripture reference, but you did mention "Emmanuel" and vaguely "I am", both of which were entirely refuted with Scripture.

You lawyers...

Must one use quotations for you to know when the word of God has been spoken to you? You make claims and act as a teacher of the word, but do not know it when you hear it?

 

[ScottA]

If the Son was indivisibly connected to the other two members of a 'trinity' as taught in all the creeds and as believed throughout Christendom, then the son didn't really die. There must have been a part of his divine being/nature still attached inseparably to the trinitarian 'God'. So did the son of God die or not? Or was it just a human sacrifice? Just a human body that died, but the essence immortally surviving?

These are good questions.

First, one must understand what a son is. In the creation story, i.e., the word of God: a son is a mere "image."

Then, it is important to understand that the Son "laid down His life." Meaning, that His "image" died on the cross, but He had already laid down His life when He first came...as did we all. So, yes, He died.

 

[ScottA]

You are having the same difficulty as the thousands, nay millions, of theologians and philosophers that preceded you. That difficulty lies in the absolute impossible task of understanding the nature of the Godhead yourself, and explaining it in terms that anyone else can understand it. The very existence of a formula that man calls 'trinity', is an exercise in futility. Then attempting to explain what that formula actually means, makes matters infinitely worse, and becomes an insult to the God you are attempting to describe.
Yet it is essential that we know Him in Whom we believe. It is essential that we worship the true God.
"Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgement is come, and worship Him Who made the heavens and the earth, and the fountains of waters.". Revelation 14:7

And scripture, without attempting to define Him, tells us clearly Who God is.


1 Corinthians 8:6

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


John 17:3

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

If we simply accept the Bible as it reads without conjecture, and without assumption, we will know of the doctrine.

I was not promoting the trinity doctrine, but referred to it as contributing to men's misunderstanding...as if three were all the attributes that could be named!

 

[gadar perets]

You lawyers...

Must one use quotations for you to know when the word of God has been spoken to you? You make claims and act as a teacher of the word, but do not know it when you hear it?

As I said, I refuted the only two verses you mentioned. Once again you post nothing except bringing my spirituality into question.

 

[mjrhealth]

But it should be known that we cannot call God One, and also call Him more than one.

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

See all 3. Jesus the Word in the Flesh, the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and God in heaven making a proclamation about His son. Doesnt really matter, since there are one, as in they are all one in agreement and purpose.

 

[ScottA]

As I said, I refuted the only two verses you mentioned. Once again you post nothing except bringing my spirituality into question.

This is not about you, and I have tried not to make it personal. But you bring the question of your spirituality upon yourself, by only listing the quotation marks and not the word, showing just what it is that you recognize and what you do not. And here you've done it again.

 

[amadeus]

Helen, well I believe when I became a true believer of God via his son, his words and work he did for me, I did not really grow until I prayed in the spirit for understanding the word of God and to know God in a more intimate way.

I am not Helen but would like to respond with my agreements and/or differences:

Probably we are close, if not the same, on our beginnings and direction.

When I see the concept of the RCC Trinity being preached, and according to me, blinding others, I want to point it out. It does not have to be a heated discussion at all. Emotions usually surface when the receiver of this different view perceives that their cherished belief system is being attacked. And I say I’m not here to annoy anyone, and I’m not also responsible for their feelings or emotions either. I am responsible to share my views in love and with joy. Unfortunately, I do not get the same back in return as I read some responses.

At one time some years ago I always jumped at the opportunity to defend or project my own beliefs about the trinity. I have certainly back away from such an aggressive approach, but I am where I am and when someone sincerely wants to know why or I believe God wants me to get into it again well there I am again.

My only grounding in the trinity when I would have been considered a Trinitarian was the little that the Catholic nuns taught. It was very little. My devout Catholicism ended not long after moving from my home town and starting college. After being only a nominal Catholic for several years God called me to Him through a very set apart family who lived for God under a Oneness Jesus Only doctrine. I met them in 1974 and went into Oneness Jesus Only in 1976. I received the Holy Ghost, began to speak in tongues and at age 32 began to read the Bible for the first time in my life. Unlike the Catholics, they stressed strongly reading and studying the Bible.

The man who with his family won us [my wife and I] to God was not a minister per se but he did most certainly minister and teach continuously to anyone who saw him and heard him. Converting me to oneness was not difficult because I had never really been firmly attached to the trinity and I was hearing from God even if I did not understand what He really wanted. As I learned the Bible I also learned the Oneness Jesus Only doctrines. When I really began to get some of it in me I found myself already somewhat a part from their official stand. I guess that had always been true when I was an active Catholic as well... even though I certainly did not understand that at the time.

The UPC [United Pentecostal Church = the largest organized group of Oneness Jesus Only people] taught that you had to speak in tongues if you had the baptism of the Holy Ghost and without the baptism of the Holy Ghost you could not be saved. I took hold of that at the first when I really knew nothing at all, but as God led me I moved away from that but only shared my motion away from them with one brother who was fairly open in his view point and at least in a little trouble with them as a result.

An apparently very solid belief of the UPC was the need to be baptized by full immersion in water while someone spoke words over you following the pattern of Acts 2:38 [ as opposed to Matt 28:19]. It was a long time before I was led to understand why that was not so important.

A third apparently solid belief of theirs was that Jesus was it. That is, Jesus was the Father, and Jesus was the Holy Ghost as well as being the Son: Only One God with each of these being a "manifestation" of the One God: no trinity.

I left the One Jesus Only people after 11 years but it was a while before I really had enough of a definite idea as to where I was to be able to share it specifically with anyone. God was changing me.

In the past I have described myself as more of a twoness advocate, but that does not fit well either and I don't usually commit myself so definitely as that. It is not because I think it is completely wrong, but because telling others that is not always the most edifying thing to do. [Sometimes however it may be.] I do believe in the Holy Ghost, but not as a separate part or entity or person from the Father God.

I believe Jesus is "God", but in a sense which may offend some deeply steeped in their Trinitarian or Jesus Only views. My view is seen in the relationship of Joseph [the son sold into slavery] to Pharaoh as stated in this verse:

"Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou." Gen 41:40

As with Joseph, Jesus was made great, even made "God" or "god" [if the smaller letter instead of the capital makes a difference] because God chose to make him so, but he was not always so. I am not so set in my belief that I don't or won't listen to what others have to say on it, but over the years I have probably heard every argument and many when they have heard where I stand have been certain they to convince that their way was THE way.

Give God, who gives the increases, the glory!

I already used brakelite in my answer: they all do not believe even a born God spirit-filled human being could NOT SIN.

What is impossible for God? Is God not in us?

quote]
They say Jesus had to be divine (as God or being God himself) without any scriptural support. I believe it is a lack of understanding of scripture and even a lack of faith to pray to the spirit for guidance and understanding. It takes patience and many years…[/QUOTE]
What some [many, most?] seem to believe is the God could not or would not create/make a man like Jesus who is like God [much like Adam was before he disobeyed?] but would be able to sin if he chose to do so... The first Adam did sin. The second one, Jesus, did not. Jesus was a man as we are with some differences. The differences were necessary because all of the other men ever born of woman were dead to God.

Does it take patience and many years? Perhaps! It did for me, but I would not presume that every other man is bound by my experience or my limitations... many of them probably self-imposed.

 

[ScottA]

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

See all 3. Jesus the Word in the Flesh, the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and God in heaven making a proclamation about His son. Doesnt really matter, since there are one, as in they are all one in agreement and purpose.

Indeed. If we know Him, we know Him as Three (and more), and that they are not separate, but One. Not as a man and a woman are one, or as they have children, for we are lower than God. But as One, all in all, as higher and lifted up. For the difference we should look to the Spirit. For where a man goes, there he is. But where the Spirit goes, He goes and yet has not left. For this reason Christ said, "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age."

 

[APAK]

I am not Helen but would like to respond with my agreements and/or differences:

Probably we are close, if not the same, on our beginnings and direction.


At one time some years ago I always jumped at the opportunity to defend or project my own beliefs about the trinity. I have certainly back away from such an aggressive approach, but I am where I am and when someone sincerely wants to know why or I believe God wants me to get into it again well there I am again.

My only grounding in the trinity when I would have been considered a Trinitarian was the little that the Catholic nuns taught. It was very little. My devout Catholicism ended not long after moving from my home town and starting college. After being only a nominal Catholic for several years God called me to Him through a very set apart family who lived for God under a Oneness Jesus Only doctrine. I met them in 1974 and went into Oneness Jesus Only in 1976. I received the Holy Ghost, began to speak in tongues and at age 32 began to read the Bible for the first time in my life. Unlike the Catholics, they stressed strongly reading and studying the Bible.

The man who with his family won us [my wife and I] to God was not a minister per se but he did most certainly minister and teach continuously to anyone who saw him and heard him. Converting me to oneness was not difficult because I had never really been firmly attached to the trinity and I was hearing from God even if I did not understand what He really wanted. As I learned the Bible I also learned the Oneness Jesus Only doctrines. When I really began to get some of it in me I found myself already somewhat a part from their official stand. I guess that had always been true when I was an active Catholic as well... even though I certainly did not understand that at the time.

The UPC [United Pentecostal Church = the largest organized group of Oneness Jesus Only people] taught that you had to speak in tongues if you had the baptism of the Holy Ghost and without the baptism of the Holy Ghost you could not be saved. I took hold of that at the first when I really knew nothing at all, but as God led me I moved away from that but only shared my motion away from them with one brother who was fairly open in his view point and at least in a little trouble with them as a result.

An apparently very solid belief of the UPC was the need to be baptized by full immersion in water while someone spoke words over you following the pattern of Acts 2:38 [ as opposed to Matt 28:19]. It was a long time before I was led to understand why that was not so important.

A third apparently solid belief of theirs was that Jesus was it. That is, Jesus was the Father, and Jesus was the Holy Ghost as well as being the Son: Only One God with each of these being a "manifestation" of the One God: no trinity.

I left the One Jesus Only people after 11 years but it was a while before I really had enough of a definite idea as to where I was to be able to share it specifically with anyone. God was changing me.

In the past I have described myself as more of a twoness advocate, but that does not fit well either and I don't usually commit myself so definitely as that. It is not because I think it is completely wrong, but because telling others that is not always the most edifying thing to do. [Sometimes however it may be.] I do believe in the Holy Ghost, but not as a separate part or entity or person from the Father God.

I believe Jesus is "God", but in a sense which may offend some deeply steeped in their Trinitarian or Jesus Only views. My view is seen in the relationship of Joseph [the son sold into slavery] to Pharaoh as stated in this verse:

"Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou." Gen 41:40

As with Joseph, Jesus was made great, even made "God" or "god" [if the smaller letter instead of the capital makes a difference] because God chose to make him so, but he was not always so. I am not so set in my belief that I don't or won't listen to what others have to say on it, but over the years I have probably heard every argument and many when they have heard where I stand have been certain they to convince that their way was THE way.

Give God, who gives the increases, the glory!


What is impossible for God? Is God not in us?

quote]
They say Jesus had to be divine (as God or being God himself) without any scriptural support. I believe it is a lack of understanding of scripture and even a lack of faith to pray to the spirit for guidance and understanding. It takes patience and many years…

What some [many, most?] seem to believe is the God could not or would not create/make a man like Jesus who is like God [much like Adam was before he disobeyed?] but would be able to sin if he chose to do so... The first Adam did sin. The second one, Jesus, did not. Jesus was a man as we are with some differences. The differences were necessary because all of the other men ever born of woman were dead to God.

Does it take patience and many years? Perhaps! It did for me, but I would not presume that every other man is bound by my experience or my limitations... many of them probably self-imposed.[/QUOTE]
I really understand your view completely. We are most probably 95% in sych if you want to carry a figure around. I especially liked your last two paragraphs. Jesus was a man fill with God's power and spirit, like being charged with steroids...
either one understands it or never will without spiritual prayer and insight....keep the faith...

Thanks brother for your insights

Bless you,

APAK