Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ) is NOT Almighty YHWH

[gadar perets]

Not the same at all:
Matthew 19:8
"He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so."

Do you actually think divorce is something Moses allowed or that YHWH allowed? YHWH allowed it and Moses delivered the command. Also, this verse does not say "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives for any reason." YHWH gave the reason through Moses and Yeshua elaborated on the reason.

A lot of things are not making sense to you. But my point was, that you cannot even see that even in the earthly life of Jesus (or David), what they were and what they became, does not change who they are. So, if you cannot see that of earthly things, then yes, you will not see the sense of it in heavenly things - as in the identity of Jesus, as "the same yesterday, today, and forever."
Now you speak against Christ (anti) as if to say He is [not] "the same yesterday, today, and forever."

The truth is, I can't see the earthly or heavenly things you read into the text.

Look...you have picked out a context and defined it different than what is true of Jesus eternally, which is the way the world looks at everything. But it is not so with God. With God, all is eternal, and you have not accredited Jesus' eternity to Him, and this you have done against what the scriptures say of Him being "the same yesterday, today, and forever." Your snapshot world context and definition of Christ does not measure up to that of God's definition. He is right, and you are wrong.

Yeshua was NOT eternal. He had a beginning because he is a created being (Colossians 1:15).

 

[gadar perets]

Addressing the OP only.

question, "How do you define the term (Son)?" as in Son of God.

A male offspring.

 

[gadar perets]

let's take a look at each of your verses. in verse 2 above, "His anointed", what kind of pronoun is "HIS"? a possessive pronoun, which signify "ownership" . so his anointed is "HIS" body, because one do not anoint Spirit.

It is not "HIS" body that was anointed, but HIS Son's body.

second point, is not the Lord Jesus God's "OWN" arm? let's check the record. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".

my "OWN" arm? own is used with a possessive to emphasize that someone or something belongs or relates to the person mentioned.

Yeshua begins speaking in Isaiah 63:3. He is still speaking in verse 5. "Mine own arm", therefore, is a reference to Yeshua's arm in this verse, not YHWH's.

third Point, is it not the Christ who is God's OWN arm? Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

so clearly God "OWN" arm is God himself in flesh.

let's give a carnal example to understand a Spiritual concept. if I picked up a penny from off the floor who picked up the penny? the answer I did, for my arm, hands, and fingers are me as much as "MY" feet, ears ans nose. I wouldn't say my ear heard, no, I heard.

it was I who picked up the penny off the floor. I identify the arm, the leg, the mouth...ect.

so God who is a Spirit, by his "OWN" arm brought salvation unto himself.

after the OP answer thew question I pose, then I will reveal how the ARM of God was revealed.

PCY

"The arm of YHWH" in Isaiah 53:1 is NOT a reference to YHWH's literal arm. It is an idiom meaning "the power of YHWH". You gave me a carnal example. Now I will give you a Scriptural example.

"Thus saith YHWH, In this thou shalt know that I am YHWH: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood. And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river. And YHWH spoke unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. And Moses and Aaron did so, as YHWH commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood."​

YHWH says He Himself will smite the waters with the rod in His own hand. Yet, it was Aaron that held the rod (Exodus 7:19,20). Are we to believe that Aaron is also YHWH and that Aaron's hand is really YHWH's hand? No. Neither should we believe that Yeshua is Yahweh in Isaiah 53:1. YHWH was the power behind the miracle Aaron performed.

 

[gadar perets]

KJV Proverbs 30
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

This teaches us that YHWH (the Creator) has a son. Not only was Israel His Son at the time this was written, but Yeshua would also become His Son and is the answer to this prophetic question.

KJV John 3
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven....
16 ..... For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
My son is not an express image of me though he has my DNA. The Son of God is an express image of His Father because He is His Father's Son. Or children are not perfect reproductions of our selves, thank God. However, nothing God does is less than perfect. His son is indeed a perfect reproduction of everything the Father is.

I'm not sure how you are tying John 3 to "express image", but the Father is omnipotent and omniscient, the Son was not. He said he could nothing and that it was the Father working through him performing miracles. He may be both now, after his resurrection, but he was not before.

KJV John 5
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
The Life of the Son is the life of the Father. Self-existent eternal, immortal. Divine. And because it was a gift, enabled Jesus to give it up on our behalf. Authority to judge... Forgive sin... power to create... Worthy of worship(let all the angels of God worship him). Makes the Son equal to God in every single respect except in rank. Which explains why Jesus called his Father, his God. And why the Father called the Son, God. Hebrews 1:8.

The gift of life in himself was not given until after Yeshua was born a flesh and blood man. The same is true of the authority to judge and forgive sin. Power to create? What did he create? Even the saints will be "worshiped" (Revelation 3:9). That doesn't make us equal to God.

 

[ScottA]

Do you actually think divorce is something Moses allowed or that YHWH allowed? YHWH allowed it and Moses delivered the command. Also, this verse does not say "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives for any reason." YHWH gave the reason through Moses and Yeshua elaborated on the reason.

You are getting off track and missing the point. I did not say either way, but simply quoted Jesus. So, if you have a problem with it, your beef is not with me. But that was not the point. The point was that reading the word according to the way things once were, does not necessarily speak to the way things are currently. My quote was just for scriptural confirmation.

This I did because APAK was standing firm on things always remaining the same according to the scriptures and the past.

Yeshua was NOT eternal. He had a beginning because he is a created being (Colossians 1:15).

Wrong again. He was before time and creation. So, your not being able to reconcile Him being "the first born of all creation" does not tell the truth of it, but just you understanding.

 

[gadar perets]

Wrong again. He was before time and creation. So, your not being able to reconcile Him being "the first born of all creation" does not tell the truth of it, but just you understanding.

So tell me the truth about Colossians 1:15. I believe it is declaring Yeshua to be part of creation. No other created being was born via resurrection before the created being known as Yeshua.

 

[ScottA]

So tell me the truth about Colossians 1:15. I believe it is declaring Yeshua to be part of creation. No other created being was born via resurrection before the created being known as Yeshua.

It is a biblical fact that Jesus was with the Father "before the foundation of the world."

1 Peter 1:20
"He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."

John 17:5
"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

Thus, Colossians 1:15, only refers to the mere "image" of God, i.e., "our image" cast in the creation...just as it says:

Colossians 1:15
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."


...But we as men cannot redefine God to fit the world as the world sees all men. What is manifest does not have its own identity or reality - it is all just an "image."

 

[gadar perets]

It is a biblical fact that Jesus was with the Father "before the foundation of the world."

1 Peter 1:20
"He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."

"Foreordained" means to foreknow. YHWH knew He would create Yeshua long before he came into existence just as He "chose" and "predestined" believers we existed.

Eph 1:4 According as He has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Yeshua Messiah to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,​

John 17:5
"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

Yeshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:25-26)

Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yeshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the mind or plan of Almighty YHWH. This is akin to John 1:1 which speaks of the very word of Elohim being with Elohim in the beginning. This spoken word or plan of YHWH existed throughout the ions of time. From the beginning of time, YHWH had Yeshua's sacrifice in His plan for all humankind. For it was through Yeshua that we would receive our justification (Romans 4:25). 1 Peter 1:18-20 continues to explain this by saying:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."​

Yeshua was foreordained (foreknown) from the foundation of the world, but was made manifest or revealed in these last times. He did not exist as a person or being in former times, but in these last times YHWH allowed him to be born of a woman (Galatians 4:4) and speaks through him (Hebrews 1:1-2).

The glory that Yeshua had was as the slain lamb of YHWH, in the mind of YHWH, and Yeshua was praying for that glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, eternal life. This is why Yeshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.' " Yeshua wanted to bring about the fulfillment of the plan of salvation by YHWH glorifying him as the ultimate sacrifice, and Yeshua in turn glorifying the Father.

Thus, Colossians 1:15, only refers to the mere "image" of God, i.e., "our image" cast in the creation...just as it says:

Colossians 1:15
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."


...But we as men cannot redefine God to fit the world as the world sees all men. What is manifest does not have its own identity or reality - it is all just an "image."

Paul was addressing two separate issues; 1) Yeshua being the image of the invisible God and 2) Yeshua being the firstborn of every creature.

1) If it was possible to see the invisible God, He would look like Yeshua, not outwardly, but inwardly via his character, dedication, faith, obedience, love, etc.
2) Of all the creatures that YHWH created, Yeshua was the "firstborn" or first to be "begotten again" via a resurrection unto eternal life.​

Also, Paul says Yeshua is the "image" of the invisible God. He did NOT say Yeshua IS the invisible God. An image is a replica of the original. A painting of an apple is not an apple. Neither is an image of the only true God, the only true God.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.

A male offspring.

First thanks for the reply,

I suggest you look up the term/word son and see how it is used in our Lord case. my source, Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words,
G5207, huios
primarily signifies the relation of offspring to parent (See John 9:18-John 9:20; Gal 4:30. It is often used metaphorically of prominent moral characteristics.

I suggest you read all of the definition. especially, "The Apostle John does not use huios, 'son,' of the believer, he reserves that title for the Lord; but he does use teknon, 'child,' as in his Gospel, John 1:12; 1John 3:1-2; Rev 21:7 (hunios) is a quotation from 2Sam 7:14.

PCY

 

[101G]

Yeshua begins speaking in Isaiah 63:3. He is still speaking in verse 5. "Mine own arm", therefore, is a reference to Yeshua's arm in this verse, not YHWH's.

are you sure?, Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

STOP, I ask you, who "ARM" is revealed here? the answer the LORD's right, and who is this "arm?", let's see,

Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

"The arm of YHWH" in Isaiah 53:1 is NOT a reference to YHWH's literal arm. It is an idiom meaning "the power of YHWH".

see what you said, "It is an idiom meaning "the power of YHWH"
let's back this up, 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God". and the "ARM" of God is the POWER of God.

thank you for confirming that JESUS is the POWER of God, which is a anthropomorphism.

so now, knowing this, do you really want to continue in your stance?


PCY

 

[brakelite]

This teaches us that YHWH (the Creator) has a son. Not only was Israel His Son at the time this was written, but Yeshua would also become His Son and is the answer to this prophetic question.


I'm not sure how you are tying John 3 to "express image", but the Father is omnipotent and omniscient, the Son was not. He said he could nothing and that it was the Father working through him performing miracles. He may be both now, after his resurrection, but he was not before.


The gift of life in himself was not given until after Yeshua was born a flesh and blood man. The same is true of the authority to judge and forgive sin. Power to create? What did he create? Even the saints will be "worshiped" (Revelation 3:9). That doesn't make us equal to God.

First, I was quoting 1 john simply to re-emphasise His Sonship. That fact, His literal sonship of God, is the rock solid foundation of our faith.
I believe those attributes of the Father, his omniscience etc. Belonged to the Son pre-incarnation, but were laid aside when becoming a man... And taken up again on his Ascension. However, his omnipresence is not Jesus personally, but his Spirit.
The gift of life, the raise people from the dead, was one of those powers laid aside, but he did have that problem power before... After all, who raised up Moses?

 

[brakelite]

Bottom line.

Our offspring are imperfect reproductions of our selves. Our children carry our DNA but there are always differences in appearance, and inherited traits and tendancies, but also always similarities. However, Jesus is the Son of God. Is there imperfection in God? No! That is why the scriptures declare Jesus as having all the attributes of the Godhead. That is why the scriptures declare Jesus as being the very image of the Father. A perfect reproduction. My son is an imperfect reproduction of me, yet is still a human, how can Jesus, being a perfect reproduction of God the Father, not also be God?

 

[Taken]

There is much confusion concerning who Messiah Yeshua is.

Agree

Some say he is the Son of God, others say he was God himself. Some say he is our Heavenly Father, others say he was our Heavenly Father’s Son. Some say he is Almighty YHWH, others say he is Almighty YHWH’s Son.

Scripture notifies us God has many names and titles.

Scripture notifies us God reveals His many names and titles.

Scripture notifies us Lord God Almighty IS One God, regardless of How many names and titles He reveals.

Scripture notifies us thee One Lord God Almighty, KNOWS it is a mystery to many.

Scripture notifies us He, God Himself reveals the Understanding "according to Him"; WHO He IS.

The purpose of this thread is to teach the latter; that Messiah Yeshua is the Son of Almighty YHWH, not YHWH himself.

Disagree.

The Purpose of Scripture was to REVEAL secret things not before known.

Dan 2:47
...of a truth it is...
God is a God of gods
AND
A Lord of kings
AND
A reveler of secrets...

Luke 8:10
...unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God:
BUT to others in parables,
THAT they might NOT SEE,
AND
Hearing they might NOT UNDERSTAND.

God's WORD "IS" thee One God Himself.
1 John 1: ...the Word was with God, and the Word was God...

God's POWER "IS" thee One God Himself.
1 Cor 1:24 ...Christ the Power of God...

God the Father "IS" thee Son, thee Word, thee Power, thee One God Himself.
John 14:7 ....ye have seen him...
(Ie. Seeing Jesus was seeing Jesus' Father)

God IS God and IS the Lord.

Isa 41:4
...I the LORD, the First WITH the Last,
I AM He.

Isa 48:12
Hearken...
I AM He;
I AM the first, I ALSO AM the Last.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[gadar perets]

I suggest you look up the term/word son and see how it is used in our Lord case. my source, Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words,
G5207, huios
primarily signifies the relation of offspring to parent (See John 9:18-John 9:20; Gal 4:30. It is often used metaphorically of prominent moral characteristics.

I gave you the number 1 definition according to Vine's. Are you just trying to be disagreeable?

I suggest you read all of the definition. especially, "The Apostle John does not use huios, 'son,' of the believer, he reserves that title for the Lord; but he does use teknon, 'child,' as in his Gospel, John 1:12; 1John 3:1-2; Rev 21:7 (hunios) is a quotation from 2Sam 7:14.

PCY

These statements are irrelevant since the rest of the NT clearly calls believers sons.

 

[gadar perets]

are you sure?, Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

STOP, I ask you, who "ARM" is revealed here? the answer the LORD's right, and who is this "arm?", let's see,

Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

You said, "Are you sure"? concerning my reply about Isaiah 63:5. Yes, I am sure. I don't know why you are bringing up Isaiah 53 to prove me wrong. THey are two different passages.

see what you said, "It is an idiom meaning "the power of YHWH"
let's back this up, 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God". and the "ARM" of God is the POWER of God.

thank you for confirming that JESUS is the POWER of God, which is a anthropomorphism.

so now, knowing this, do you really want to continue in your stance?


PCY

I know full well Messiah is the power of God. I also know that in 2 Corinthians 13:4 Messiah is NOT the power of God since the power of God resurrected him. The power of God is also His Holy Spirit. So, to answer your question, Yes, I will continue in my stance.

 

[gadar perets]

First, I was quoting 1 john simply to re-emphasise His Sonship. That fact, His literal sonship of God, is the rock solid foundation of our faith.
I believe those attributes of the Father, his omniscience etc. Belonged to the Son pre-incarnation, but were laid aside when becoming a man... And taken up again on his Ascension. However, his omnipresence is not Jesus personally, but his Spirit.
The gift of life, the raise people from the dead, was one of those powers laid aside, but he did have that problem power before... After all, who raised up Moses?

Who raised up Moses? I didn't know he resurrected yet. You are assuming Yeshua had those attributes prior to being born in the flesh.

 

[gadar perets]

Bottom line.

Our offspring are imperfect reproductions of our selves. Our children carry our DNA but there are always differences in appearance, and inherited traits and tendancies, but also always similarities. However, Jesus is the Son of God. Is there imperfection in God? No! That is why the scriptures declare Jesus as having all the attributes of the Godhead.

Which scriptures?

That is why the scriptures declare Jesus as being the very image of the Father. A perfect reproduction. My son is an imperfect reproduction of me, yet is still a human, how can Jesus, being a perfect reproduction of God the Father, not also be God?

Adam was made in God's image, but that did not make him God.

 

[gadar perets]

God's WORD "IS" thee One God Himself.
1 John 1: ...the Word was with God, and the Word was God...

You mean John 1:1. I agree, but the "word/logos" was NOT the Son prior to it being made flesh.

God's POWER "IS" thee One God Himself.
1 Cor 1:24 ...Christ the Power of God...

I disagree. Messiah is the power of God unto salvation, but he was not the power of God to deliver Israel out of Egyptian bondage or to work miracles throughout the OT. The Father has His own power apart from using the Son to manifest His power. He used that power to resurrect His Son.

God the Father "IS" thee Son, thee Word, thee Power, thee One God Himself.
John 14:7 ....ye have seen him...
(Ie. Seeing Jesus was seeing Jesus' Father)

Yes. We see the Father's character when we see Yeshua. We do not literally see the Father whom no man has ever seen.

God IS God and IS the Lord.

Isa 41:4
...I the LORD, the First WITH the Last,
I AM He.

Isa 48:12
Hearken...
I AM He;
I AM the first, I ALSO AM the Last.

Both passages refer to Father YHWH, not His Son Yeshua.

 

[101G]

I gave you the number 1 definition according to Vine's. Are you just trying to be disagreeable?


These statements are irrelevant since the rest of the NT clearly calls believers sons.

GINOLJC, to all,

I must disagree, listen John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"

the term here "Sons" is
G5043 τέκνον teknon (tek'-non) n.
a child (as produced).
[from the base of G5098]
KJV: child, daughter, son

apparently you didn't read vines dictionary, for if you did you would have read this...

"The Apostle John does not use huios, 'son,' of the believer, he reserves that title for the Lord; but he does use teknon, 'child,' as in his Gospel, John 1:12; 1John 3:1-2; Rev 21:7 (hunios) is a quotation from 2Sam 7:14.

I used John 1:12 above to prove my point that you must not read Vines dictionary.

so I reject your statement that it's "irrelevant". I suggest you re-read vines Dictionary again.

PCY

 

[101G]

I know full well Messiah is the power of God. I also know that in 2 Corinthians 13:4 Messiah is NOT the power of God since the power of God resurrected him. The power of God is also His Holy Spirit. So, to answer your question, Yes, I will continue in my stance.

so you know, ok.... you said, "Messiah is NOT the power of God since the power of God resurrected him". ok, let's see. you do agree that the Lord Jesus cannot lie right... right.

scriptures, John 2:18 "Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

John 2:21 "But he spake of the temple of his body".


gadar perets, I have a question, can the Lord Jesus lie? ... of course not, so who raised up that body? just read verse 19 above again.

now don't loose it, let me hit you with something else.

Yes, the Lord Jesus is the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit, God now in flesh and bone. can you handle that?

we'll see. just remember Jesus is God ... the Holy Spirit in the flesh.

PCY