Miracles and certain spiritual gifts

[Waiting on him]

The day will come that God will remove the Holy Spirit from the earth and there will be tribulation like never before...the gifts will cease because His Spirit is removed.

So you have some scripture pertaining to God removing the Holy Spirit from the earth?

 

[Waiting on him]

Thanks Chris, hope that you and your hubby are doing well and staying safe.

The thing is..BlessedCreator has demonstrated that he has no living daily faith..and for sure no experience in the things of the Lord.

I honestly feel sorry for all of those who believe that God retired from actively demonstrating anything supernatural after Acts.
But, I know what you believe so I will say no more.

Blessing ...H

No living daily faith is pretty harsh.

 

[Waiting on him]

"...When He that is Perfect has come..."...only then shall the in-part be done away with ...and no longer needed. Cor 13

He has came.

 

[Waiting on him]

I believe the root is fear of the unknown, fear of anything supernatural.
Always afraid that they will "get a demon"... some pastors did teach that...
" Be very careful you don't get a demon."

Our own first pastor hated funerals ...he would pray and pray against whatever the person died of, jumping upon him!!
He told us ..."when you go to a funeral always pray the protection of the blood, if the person died of cancer or had demons , then they can come out of them and into you." Poor guy was full of fear. It was a holiness church, great foundations , loved him...but lacking in faith and a knowledge of how to hear and be led by the Lord in a safe path. We had to 'move on'.

That's what those that seek to save their life do.

 

[Angelina]

While people debate whether Paul meant what he said in 1 Corinthians 13:8, that fact remains that he did say that three SPECIFIC spiritual gifts would cease (vanish away) -- prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge (since ordinary knowledge has always existed).

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Many people try to claim that this will happen only at the Rapture, but if that were true there would be no need to pick three specific gifts. All spiritual gifts would become unnecessary at the Resurrection/Rapture, since all the saints would be perfected at that time (and the gifts are given for the edification and perfection of the saints. See Ephesians 4)

So that argument has no merit. Furthermore, Paul said "when that which is perfect (complete) is come" NOT "when He who is perfect has come", those gifts would disappear.

Several translations have used the word complete rather than perfect, since the Greek word τέλειος (teleios) can mean either perfect or complete (depending on context). And the Bible was completed in 96 AD.

So when properly interpreted, what Paul was saying is that when the Bible has been completed, then prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge would cease. And that makes perfect sense in light of the fact the the apostle John warned in the last chapter of the last book of the Bible, that nothing more was to be added to his prophecies in Revelation. Tongues would be *prophetic* in the sense that they were the supernatural speaking of foreign languages not learned by the speaker (unlike moder tongues or glossolalia).

The truth of this is found in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, who never claimed to be apostles and prophets, and always made a clear distinction between their writings and those of the apostles. They said nothing about speaking in tongues either. Indeed Peter says that what he and the other apostles wrote was prophetic in that it was divinely inspired -- the Word of God -- which is the true biblical meaning of prophecy (foretelling as well as forth-telling). Nothing written by the ECF was prophetic.

Charismatics hate this argument from Scripture, and insist that all the spiritual gifts have continued to this day. But that is simply not the case. Those who have claimed to be prophets have been found to be false prophets (e.g. Ellen G. White, Joseph Smith, etc).

As to signs, wonders, and miracles (through miracle workers) they were primarily for the apostles and their companions, in order to authenticate the Gospel message and show unbelieving Jews (primarily) that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was directly from God.

HEBREWS 2: GOD BEARING WITNESS THROUGH MIRACLES
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Today miracles occur in answer to prayers, not to prove that the Gospel is from God, and not to dazzle unbelievers either. For we walk by faith, not by sight. Christ said that the Jews always seek after a sign, but His resurrection (the sign of Jonah) would be the only sign to an unbelieving generation. Jesus also said regarding unbelieving Jews that they would not repent even though one rose from the dead. Which is true to this day.

Well said! Now I am no scholar, nor do I claim to be but I would like to give my understanding of what Paul mean't in 1 Corinthians 13:8 based on reading the Word through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12 is mostly about spiritual gifts and how they function within the body of Christ. In verse 13, he refers to a better way. That way is based on love. He makes a clear distinction between the gifts and the fruit. The gifts are the manifestation of the Holy Spirits power, working through believers. The fruit is the outworking of those gifts [Galatians 5:22-23] and the very stimulus on which these gifts should be founded on. Love, which never fails.

In 1 Corinthians 13:8 he goes on to say that "prophecies will fail, tongues, will cease, knowledge, it will vanish." Right after that in Verse 9 he talks about how we do not have full understanding, we only know some things but not everything. "we know in part and we prophesy in part."

10 says "But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done" away". I believe that Paul is still talking about "we" and the perfect he is talking about is still referring to us. Basically, he is saying and when we come to perfection, the partial understanding will be done away.

The reason I believe this is because of the rest of the verses.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Can anyone of us truly say they have been perfected? I don't think so....even Paul struggled with idea when he said ~ Philippians 3:12-14.

Some of you may think that Paul is referring to Jesus but I think he's talking about us. There was only one person who was perfect and he became that way through obedience, even to the point of death on the cross. Hebrews 5:8-10

I also believe we will become perfected the same way, when we have obeyed his will and enter the Kingdom of heaven. Ergo, the gifts are still functioning today JM2c

 

[bbyrd009]

Paul also said certain gifts will cease...

prolly not the best characterization of 1 Corinthians 13:8 Lexicon: Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. fwiw. Why would these "certain gifts" specifically be "done away" with, and not the others, iyo?

....When Christ returns.

which you cannot Quote, yeh. For a really good reason, imo, which is why you are likely right, it is not debatable at all; you have just been deceived too, like the rest of us

 

[Taken]

I've been baptized by the Holy Ghost, and continue to be and will continue to be until judgement day when I will hopefully be made perfect (as can be). The baptism of the Spirit is the process of being born again which means to be transformed by God into a new moral life, one lived in strict obedience unto God's will. This has nothing to do with the fact God is not giving out the gifts of miracles such as speaking tongues or healing.

I would simple say:
Specific Miracles such as Tongues, healing the blind, etc. are not the extent of Gods Miracles in a person's Life.
I see the mention of Scriptural Miracles as Examples of "Possibilities", that can AND have occurred in many people's lives Long after Jesus ascended.

Of course everyday Miracles do not Become entered into Scriptural Text...but I do believe we get blips...a child under water 30 minutes, but not drowned...;a cancer patient in dire straights, with all cancer and damage gone...;brain activity dead...then resumes; building fires killing several...and yet one survives out of the fire, smoke...unharmed from the fire, smoke or debris.

The list goes on and on; Incidents people attribute to Miracles of God... and personally I lean to agree with their convictions.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Heart2Soul]

So you have some scripture pertaining to God removing the Holy Spirit from the earth?

2 Thessalonians 2 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Here is an in depth commentary:
When was or will the Holy Spirit be taken out of the way?

 

[Angelina]

Using the Amplified bible Romans 11 says:

28 From the standpoint of the gospel, the Jews [at present] are enemies [of God] for your sake [which is for your benefit], but from the standpoint of God’s choice [of the Jews as His people], they are still loved by Him for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable [for He does not withdraw what He has given, nor does He change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call]. 30 Just as you once were disobedient and failed to listen to God, but have now obtained mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient so that they too may one day receive mercy because of the mercy shown to you. 32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Jew and Gentile alike].

 

[Helen]

Whew! How do you cope if your pastor is scared like that. Not good.

At that time Pat we didn't know any better. He led us to the Lord..and was great on holiness and foundational truths. Then slowly , we began to outgrown him. But we stayed friends for years...even after we emigrated to Canada.. He's been gone now for many a year now.

 

[Helen]

Charismatics hate this argument from Scripture, and insist that all the spiritual gifts have continued to this day. But that is simply not the case.

Again Enoch...says you...you cannot tell a person who can see clearly that they are blind, and expect them to believe it.

But then, why argue, its not worth it... " A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. "

You're welcome.

 

[Waiting on him]

2 Thessalonians 2 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Here is an in depth commentary:
When was or will the Holy Spirit be taken out of the way?

So under this assumption how will people come to know Christ during the alleged great tribulation? Could you also offer just one more scripture references that supports this belief?

 

[prism]

It is my belief that God is not giving out the gift of miracles and spiritual gifts in these end times such as healing, tongues, etc.
I believe that since the early churches He has not given out the gift of miracles nor speaking with tongues.

It's really simple. The only reason God shew miracles unto His servants was to make them believe
in Him, so they could then put their trust and faith in Him.

The same goes for the miracles done through God's servants. All the miracles were done to make people believe
that God is who He says He is.

Miracles were done to make people believe in God.

The only reason the early church and disciples were given these powers was to establish the church, by making
people believe their testimonies of Jesus Christ. Miracles were an aid to get people to believe.

John 9:1-3
"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him,
saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered,
Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."

We don't need miracles in these end times. There is so much evidence of wickedness and Satan's kingdom that it is
enough. Just look at the abundance of satanic occult symbols
everywhere. Those that seek the truth with all their heart and mind will find God,
or rather that God will lead them to Him.

It's that simple. God doesn't need miracles to prove to people that He is God, that the Bible is the truth.
He has other means to bring people to Him now.

If you see anyone doing "miracles" openly, I believe it is completely fake or done through demons.

Why would God give one generation signs and miracles but not another?
Oh well, hopefully, He is still giving out the miracle of the new birth.

 

[Paul Christensen]

He's not relying on Scripture, but what God told him personally. I told him to test the spirits. God doesn't contradict His word.

Everyone's liking my posts! Am I losing my touch??

 

[Paul Christensen]

That's debateable.

It's faulty hermeneutics to construct a doctrine on half a verse that talks more about the second coming of Christ than anything else, and the cessation of the gifts before then nowhere else supported in the New Testament. Reading into half a verse of Scripture is effectively adding to God's Word and comes under the judgement of Proverbs 30:6-7. I have always maintained that according to clear Scripture Cessationism is a lie, and someone has yet to prove different from clearly stated literal New Testament Scripture.

 

[Paul Christensen]

While people debate whether Paul meant what he said in 1 Corinthians 13:8, that fact remains that he did say that three SPECIFIC spiritual gifts would cease (vanish away) -- prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge (since ordinary knowledge has always existed).

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Many people try to claim that this will happen only at the Rapture, but if that were true there would be no need to pick three specific gifts. All spiritual gifts would become unnecessary at the Resurrection/Rapture, since all the saints would be perfected at that time (and the gifts are given for the edification and perfection of the saints. See Ephesians 4)

So that argument has no merit. Furthermore, Paul said "when that which is perfect (complete) is come" NOT "when He who is perfect has come", those gifts would disappear.

Several translations have used the word complete rather than perfect, since the Greek word τέλειος (teleios) can mean either perfect or complete (depending on context). And the Bible was completed in 96 AD.

So when properly interpreted, what Paul was saying is that when the Bible has been completed, then prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge would cease. And that makes perfect sense in light of the fact the the apostle John warned in the last chapter of the last book of the Bible, that nothing more was to be added to his prophecies in Revelation. Tongues would be *prophetic* in the sense that they were the supernatural speaking of foreign languages not learned by the speaker (unlike moder tongues or glossolalia).

The truth of this is found in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, who never claimed to be apostles and prophets, and always made a clear distinction between their writings and those of the apostles. They said nothing about speaking in tongues either. Indeed Peter says that what he and the other apostles wrote was prophetic in that it was divinely inspired -- the Word of God -- which is the true biblical meaning of prophecy (foretelling as well as forth-telling). Nothing written by the ECF was prophetic.

Charismatics hate this argument from Scripture, and insist that all the spiritual gifts have continued to this day. But that is simply not the case. Those who have claimed to be prophets have been found to be false prophets (e.g. Ellen G. White, Joseph Smith, etc).

As to signs, wonders, and miracles (through miracle workers) they were primarily for the apostles and their companions, in order to authenticate the Gospel message and show unbelieving Jews (primarily) that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was directly from God.

HEBREWS 2: GOD BEARING WITNESS THROUGH MIRACLES
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Today miracles occur in answer to prayers, not to prove that the Gospel is from God, and not to dazzle unbelievers either. For we walk by faith, not by sight. Christ said that the Jews always seek after a sign, but His resurrection (the sign of Jonah) would be the only sign to an unbelieving generation. Jesus also said regarding unbelieving Jews that they would not repent even though one rose from the dead. Which is true to this day.

Any doctrine that is not supported by clear New Testament Scripture is a lie. There is no debate about that, To say that the gifts ceased at the end of the Apostolic age because God intended them to cease is adding to Scripture and could result in a rebuke directly from God and exposure as a liar. (Proverbs 30:6-7).

The gifts did decline, but it was because the church went away from the standard of holiness that was required for the gifts to continue, and because paganism invaded the church with its demonic pagan ceremonies taking the place of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in church fellowship. There can be no fellowship between light and darkness, and when the darkness of demonic paganism invaded the church, the Holy Spirit withdrawal and took His gifts with Him.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Thanks for sharing your understanding of what Paul was teaching. I humbly agree to disagree with it....I can't....because of my own personal experiences....to agree with you would be denying those events in my life as coming from Him.
I vowed to NEVER deny Him or refuse His Truth....and scripture teaches me to search the "hidden wisdom" of God and to know the Mysteries of God that is hidden until the appointed time.
Therefore I know in part and see in part but we will soon know the whole truth. Those things that are hidden will be revealed.

The problem is that he is committed to believing in a demonic lie, where the lying demon's purpose is to shut believers out of the blessing and power of the presence of the Holy Spirit who desires to dispense His gifts, but cannot do so because of the fellowship with this demonic Cessationist doctrine.

 

[Paul Christensen]

prolly not the best characterization of 1 Corinthians 13:8 Lexicon: Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. fwiw. Why would these "certain gifts" specifically be "done away" with, and not the others, iyo?
which you cannot Quote, yeh. For a really good reason, imo, which is why you are likely right, it is not debatable at all; you have just been deceived too, like the rest of us

It is characteristic of demonic misuse of Scripture that it will quote a random verse or part-verse out of context, and it is the misquote half-verse in 1 Corinthians 13 that the lying demon has used to deceive godly people and Bible teachers, with the purpose of denying the full power and involvement of the Holy Spirit in the life of their churches.

 

[Waiting on him]

Jeremiah 17:9 KJV
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[Paul Christensen]

He has came.

When? Didn't Jesus say not to listen to people who say He has come already, and here He is, and there He is, and He is out in the desert? So I can safely ignore your post, on the instructions of Jesus.