Miracles and certain spiritual gifts

[Truther]

It is my belief that God is not giving out the gift of miracles and spiritual gifts in these end times such as healing, tongues, etc.
I believe that since the early churches He has not given out the gift of miracles nor speaking with tongues.

It's really simple. The only reason God shew miracles unto His servants was to make them believe
in Him, so they could then put their trust and faith in Him.

The same goes for the miracles done through God's servants. All the miracles were done to make people believe
that God is who He says He is.

Miracles were done to make people believe in God.

The only reason the early church and disciples were given these powers was to establish the church, by making
people believe their testimonies of Jesus Christ. Miracles were an aid to get people to believe.

John 9:1-3
"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him,
saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered,
Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."

We don't need miracles in these end times. There is so much evidence of wickedness and Satan's kingdom that it is
enough. Just look at the abundance of satanic occult symbols
everywhere. Those that seek the truth with all their heart and mind will find God,
or rather that God will lead them to Him.

It's that simple. God doesn't need miracles to prove to people that He is God, that the Bible is the truth.
He has other means to bring people to Him now.

If you see anyone doing "miracles" openly, I believe it is completely fake or done through demons.

WRONG!.....

1 Cor 1:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


The gifts of the Spirit named in the very same book to the church of Corinth in 1 Corinthians 12 will be available from God until the Lord returns.

 

[CharismaticLady]

WRONG!.....

1 Cor 1:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


The gifts of the Spirit named in 1 Corinthians 12 will be available from God unil the Lord returns.

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

He is new and I hope he can be converted. Right now he is hearing voices, and thinks that his beliefs that are contrary to the Word is from God. "God told me."

 

[Truther]

He is new and I hope he can be converted. Right now he is hearing voices, and thinks that his beliefs that are contrary to the Word is from God. "God told me."

Okay, I liked his KJVO post alot, but I had to fix this one. God bless.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You seem to be quite definite about that. You must have a reference somewhere in Paul's letters to say definitely that the spiritual gifts were to be temporary and were meant to cease after the Apostolic age. Are you prepared to say definitely, "This is what the Lord is saying to the church today: the spiritual gifts have ceased and any use of them now is totally fake and done through demons"? In other words, are you making this post in the Name of the Lord, or just in your own name?

He's not relying on Scripture, but what God told him personally. I told him to test the spirits. God doesn't contradict His word.

 

[Rita]

I am not being funny, and I do not agree with the OP, but what gives any of us the right to judge him ‘ as hearing voices ‘ just because he has looked at scripture and drawn different conclusions at this moment in time... equally those who agree with the OP, why do you do the same with accusations.
I came to faith in a church that did not believe the gifts existed after the apostles, it didn’t stop God from calling , and equally it did not stop me from moving forward and later seeing things differently. I would not judge that anyone in that church was not ‘ born again ‘ they just saw certain things in a different light.
What I have noticed on the forum are the extremes, it either has to be one way or the other..........
Rita

 

[Angelina]

Well having been miraculously healed twice, and speaking in tongues I have to say that because of my own experiences I have different beliefs to yours.

I agree with you Pearl. Gifts have not disappeared nor will they ever as long as the Holy Spirit dwells in the believer and as long as there are people being saved. For a start: salvation, grace and faith are gifts Ephesians 2:8, the Holy Spirit is a gift Hebrews 2:4, righteousness is a gift Romans 5:17, eternal life is a gift Romans 6:23 and these gifts are given at salvation, not including all the other gifts spoken of in his word...

@BlessedCreator you must be a cessationist. Welcome to my world

 

[reformed1689]

Now why would Paul go around preaching to churches about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and about Faith to believe in miracles and about casting out demons unless he intended for them to receive them and operate in them.
Might as well remove Acts, Roman's, Corinthians, Ephesians, Hebrews, and others and most definitely Revelation.....
It is so unnecessary to teach something that wasn't intended to be carried out til the coming of Christ.
The NT should have just ended with Luke. ...and then it wouldn't be even considered.

Paul also said certain gifts will cease...

 

[Truther]

Paul also said certain gifts will cease...

....When Christ returns.

 

[reformed1689]

....When Christ returns.

That's debateable.

 

[Stan B]

Well having been miraculously healed twice, and speaking in tongues I have to say that because of my own experiences I have different beliefs to yours.

Looking back over 78 years, I have experienced a number of major life-changing events that cannot be explained other than by God's miraculous intervention.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Paul also said certain gifts will cease...

The day will come that God will remove the Holy Spirit from the earth and there will be tribulation like never before...the gifts will cease because His Spirit is removed.

 

[Helen]

Hi @Helen,

Your entry reminded me of a little illustration I heard:-

Faith, Hope and Experience were walking along a wall,
Hope was fine as long as he kept his eyes on Faith,
But when he turned around to look at Experience,
He fell off the wall, along with Experience
But Faith went walking on.​

God in His mercy has time and again given encouragement by making His presence known to me in one way or another, and I praise Him for that, but my trust is in Him and the word He has spoken concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. It is not reliant on experiences. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thanks Chris, hope that you and your hubby are doing well and staying safe.

The thing is..BlessedCreator has demonstrated that he has no living daily faith..and for sure no experience in the things of the Lord.

I honestly feel sorry for all of those who believe that God retired from actively demonstrating anything supernatural after Acts.
But, I know what you believe so I will say no more.

Blessing ...H

 

[Helen]

Paul also said certain gifts will cease...

"...When He that is Perfect has come..."...only then shall the in-part be done away with ...and no longer needed. Cor 13

 

[Pearl]

Thanks Chris, hope that you and your hubby are doing well and staying safe.

The thing is..BlessedCreator has demonstrated that he has no living daily faith..and for sure no experience in the things of the Lord.

I honestly feel sorry for all of those who believe that God retired from actively demonstrating anything supernatural after Acts.
But, I know what you believe so I will say no more.

Blessing ...H

We know that God is unchanging, the scriptures tell us that, so why do people think he has changed? They must have their own agenda.

 

[Helen]

We know that God is unchanging, the scriptures tell us that, so why do people think he has changed? They must have their own agenda.

I believe the root is fear of the unknown, fear of anything supernatural.
Always afraid that they will "get a demon"... some pastors did teach that...
" Be very careful you don't get a demon."

Our own first pastor hated funerals ...he would pray and pray against whatever the person died of, jumping upon him!!
He told us ..."when you go to a funeral always pray the protection of the blood, if the person died of cancer or had demons , then they can come out of them and into you." Poor guy was full of fear. It was a holiness church, great foundations , loved him...but lacking in faith and a knowledge of how to hear and be led by the Lord in a safe path. We had to 'move on'.

 

[Pearl]

I believe the root is fear of the unknown, fear of anything supernatural.
Always afraid that they will "get a demon"... some pastors did teach that...
" Be very careful you don't get a demon."

Our own first pastor hated funerals ...he would pray and pray against whatever the person died of, jumping upon him!!
He told us ..."when you go to a funeral always pray the protection of the blood, if the person died of cancer or had demons , then they can come out of them and into you." Poor guy was full of fear. It was a holiness church, great foundations , loved him...but lacking in faith and a knowledge of how to hear and be led by the Lord in a safe path. We had to 'move on'.

Whew! How do you cope if your pastor is scared like that. Not good.

 

[Enoch111]

It is so unnecessary to teach something that wasn't intended to be carried out till the coming of Christ.

While people debate whether Paul meant what he said in 1 Corinthians 13:8, that fact remains that he did say that three SPECIFIC spiritual gifts would cease (vanish away) -- prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge (since ordinary knowledge has always existed).

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Many people try to claim that this will happen only at the Rapture, but if that were true there would be no need to pick three specific gifts. All spiritual gifts would become unnecessary at the Resurrection/Rapture, since all the saints would be perfected at that time (and the gifts are given for the edification and perfection of the saints. See Ephesians 4)

So that argument has no merit. Furthermore, Paul said "when that which is perfect (complete) is come" NOT "when He who is perfect has come", those gifts would disappear.

Several translations have used the word complete rather than perfect, since the Greek word τέλειος (teleios) can mean either perfect or complete (depending on context). And the Bible was completed in 96 AD.

So when properly interpreted, what Paul was saying is that when the Bible has been completed, then prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge would cease. And that makes perfect sense in light of the fact the the apostle John warned in the last chapter of the last book of the Bible, that nothing more was to be added to his prophecies in Revelation. Tongues would be *prophetic* in the sense that they were the supernatural speaking of foreign languages not learned by the speaker (unlike moder tongues or glossolalia).

The truth of this is found in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, who never claimed to be apostles and prophets, and always made a clear distinction between their writings and those of the apostles. They said nothing about speaking in tongues either. Indeed Peter says that what he and the other apostles wrote was prophetic in that it was divinely inspired -- the Word of God -- which is the true biblical meaning of prophecy (foretelling as well as forth-telling). Nothing written by the ECF was prophetic.

Charismatics hate this argument from Scripture, and insist that all the spiritual gifts have continued to this day. But that is simply not the case. Those who have claimed to be prophets have been found to be false prophets (e.g. Ellen G. White, Joseph Smith, etc).

As to signs, wonders, and miracles (through miracle workers) they were primarily for the apostles and their companions, in order to authenticate the Gospel message and show unbelieving Jews (primarily) that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was directly from God.

HEBREWS 2: GOD BEARING WITNESS THROUGH MIRACLES
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Today miracles occur in answer to prayers, not to prove that the Gospel is from God, and not to dazzle unbelievers either. For we walk by faith, not by sight. Christ said that the Jews always seek after a sign, but His resurrection (the sign of Jonah) would be the only sign to an unbelieving generation. Jesus also said regarding unbelieving Jews that they would not repent even though one rose from the dead. Which is true to this day.

 

[Heart2Soul]

While people debate whether Paul meant what he said in 1 Corinthians 13:8, that fact remains that he did say that three SPECIFIC spiritual gifts would cease (vanish away) -- prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge (since ordinary knowledge has always existed).

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Many people try to claim that this will happen only at the Rapture, but if that were true there would be no need to pick three specific gifts. All spiritual gifts would become unnecessary at the Resurrection/Rapture, since all the saints would be perfected at that time (and the gifts are given for the edification and perfection of the saints. See Ephesians 4)

So that argument has no merit. Furthermore, Paul said "when that which is perfect (complete) is come" NOT "when He who is perfect has come", those gifts would disappear.

Several translations have used the word complete rather than perfect, since the Greek word τέλειος (teleios) can mean either perfect or complete (depending on context). And the Bible was completed in 96 AD.

So when properly interpreted, what Paul was saying is that when the Bible has been completed, then prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge would cease. And that makes perfect sense in light of the fact the the apostle John warned in the last chapter of the last book of the Bible, that nothing more was to be added to his prophecies in Revelation. Tongues would be *prophetic* in the sense that they were the supernatural speaking of foreign languages not learned by the speaker (unlike moder tongues or glossolalia).

The truth of this is found in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, who never claimed to be apostles and prophets, and always made a clear distinction between their writings and those of the apostles. They said nothing about speaking in tongues either. Indeed Peter says that what he and the other apostles wrote was prophetic in that it was divinely inspired -- the Word of God -- which is the true biblical meaning of prophecy (foretelling as well as forth-telling). Nothing written by the ECF was prophetic.

Charismatics hate this argument from Scripture, and insist that all the spiritual gifts have continued to this day. But that is simply not the case. Those who have claimed to be prophets have been found to be false prophets (e.g. Ellen G. White, Joseph Smith, etc).

As to signs, wonders, and miracles (through miracle workers) they were primarily for the apostles and their companions, in order to authenticate the Gospel message and show unbelieving Jews (primarily) that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was directly from God.

HEBREWS 2: GOD BEARING WITNESS THROUGH MIRACLES
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Today miracles occur in answer to prayers, not to prove that the Gospel is from God, and not to dazzle unbelievers either. For we walk by faith, not by sight. Christ said that the Jews always seek after a sign, but His resurrection (the sign of Jonah) would be the only sign to an unbelieving generation. Jesus also said regarding unbelieving Jews that they would not repent even though one rose from the dead. Which is true to this day.

Thanks for sharing your understanding of what Paul was teaching. I humbly agree to disagree with it....I can't....because of my own personal experiences....to agree with you would be denying those events in my life as coming from Him.
I vowed to NEVER deny Him or refuse His Truth....and scripture teaches me to search the "hidden wisdom" of God and to know the Mysteries of God that is hidden until the appointed time.
Therefore I know in part and see in part but we will soon know the whole truth. Those things that are hidden will be revealed.

 

[Truther]

That's debateable.

Much the O.T. refers to the wonderful Millennial reign of Jesus along with alot of the N.T.

No debate here.

 

[amadeus]

Paul also said certain gifts will cease...

Yes and you would say probably that happened when all of the Bible was written. But I would say that for any of us it will not have happened until all of the Word of God required is written in our hearts.

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:" Eph 4:13-15