Miracles and certain spiritual gifts

[Waiting on him]

If you don't have a knowledge of the source of your info, I suggest you don't post it as it is nothing more than your opinion.

Suggest away.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Ok, who in you opinion is Paul addressing in Hebrew s 6

Paul wasn't addressing anyone, because he never wrote the book of Hebrews. But, what is your point here?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Paul,

I think you are going outside the Bible with that conclusion. The gifts of the Spirit include the word of knowledge, word of wisdom, prophecy, tongues & interpretation, etc., all of which are God's supernatural revelation to a person who then delivers the message to the congregation.

While I agree with you that the Scripture will be the primary source of God's speech to us, the gifts are other avenues for His ministry.

Oz

I understand. What I am saying is that any manifestation of a gift of the Spirit has to be consistent with what has already been written in the Bible.

For example, if a person gives a prophecy that the Lord knows the struggles that someone is going through and that He will never leave them nor forsake them and that if they put their trust in Him, He will make a way for them to come through what they are going through with peace and joy, then that is consistent with written Scripture, because we know that according to the written Scriptural record, that is what God can do for someone.

But if another person prophesies to a person that he will become famous and wealthy through God's blessing of him; then we know that is false, because fame and wealth are not consistent with those who live godly in Christ. What the Scripture says is that suffering, persecution, being hated, and even death are the experiences that a godly person in Christ is more likely to encounter. So, the prophecy is not consistent with the Scriptural record.

Similarly, someone having a word of knowledge for a another, publicly exposing sin in that person's life, is not consistent with Scripture, because it is the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come, and that through the preaching of the gospel. If a person does get a word of knowledge that does reveal that a brother or sister is in sin which may bring disrepute on the church, then he needs to follow the instructions in Matthew about bringing correction to a sinning brother or sister in Christ. Blurting out a person's sins in public through a word of knowledge shows falsehood, because the way it is done is inconsistent with Scripture.

This is why I firmly believe that a person moving in prophecy or word of knowledge needs to be someone mighty in the Scriptures, and a person of prayer. A person who operates in these gifts and who doesn't spent at least tw hours in prayer with the Lord each day, should be ignored, because there is no assurance that they are speaking in harmony with the Holy Spirit. That is why there is so much misuse in these gifts - because of a lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, and a lack of personal fellowship with God in prayer.

 

[OzSpen]

The problem that many have with the gift of tongues is the erroneous teaching that it an ecstatic gift, giving the idea that one has to be somehow emotionally hyped up when they speak it. This is aggravated by some Faith movement preachers hyping people up to having kundalini out-of-control, wacky manifestations accompanying the use of the gift, and bringing the gift into disrepute through the hyped up public use of it. This leads those who are seeking the gift thinking they need some sort of emotional "high" before they can launch out in faith to receive it.

Paul said that they prayed with his understanding (his normal language) and in his spirit (tongues). He doesn't say that he prays normally in his understanding language, and then gets all hyped up emotionally to pray with his spirit. In actual fact, he prays normally in a language which he has never learned.

When I was praying in tongues alongside the NZ Maori lady who heard me speaking the praises of God in her own native language, I wasn't hyped up at all. In fact, I was as emotional as a cold fish. I was merely praying in a language I had never learned, and by God's providence, she heard her own language coming out of me. My friend in a prayer meeting was just praying normally with all the others in the meeting, and when he prayed in tongues, the Ghanaian visitor heard his own native dialect, and he stopped the prayer meeting and told my friend what he actually said!

Today, I was thinking about the coming outbreak in Africa where, potentially, millions are going to die and go to a Christless eternity. I felt to pray that God would raise up sound gospel preachers who would get as many saved as possible. I told the Lord that maybe I should feel more emotional about the prospect of millions of souls going to hell, but I don't, and if I tried to pretend to be emotional, He would see that I would just be putting it on and it would mean nothing to Him. So I just prayed quietly. I read somewhere that God is not impressed with a Niagara of emotional "spiritual" words. Sincere prayer doesn't even need words because He can hear the groaning of a person's heart. So, all I could do is to give my request to God in faith, trusting in Him for the outcome.

I was disgusted when I saw a video clip of Sid Roth getting a guy to speak in tongues. What an insult to the Holy Spirit! No wonder people get put off the gifts of the Spirit when they watch video clips like that!

Paul,

You have raised an issue of error in many Pentecostal churches I have visited. Whether in the congregation or small prayer/Bible study groups, they all tongues without interpretations. This is unbiblical according to 1 Cor 14:13-18 (NIV). Whenever there is the gift of tongues in a group it must be accompanied by the gift of interpretation?

Why? 'If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me' (1 Cor 14:11 NIV).

There is a place for tongues, without interpretation. That is for the individual in the prayer closet: 'Pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy. For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit' (1 Cor 14:1-2 NRSV).

My main concern with Pentecostal churches is this failure to teach accurately on the practice of the gifts of the Spirit, according to 1 Cor 12-14 (NIV).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Maybe he doesn't want to.

Perhaps he has a better handle of the exegesis of 1 Cor 12-14.

 

[OzSpen]

I understand. What I am saying is that any manifestation of a gift of the Spirit has to be consistent with what has already been written in the Bible.

For example, if a person gives a prophecy that the Lord knows the struggles that someone is going through and that He will never leave them nor forsake them and that if they put their trust in Him, He will make a way for them to come through what they are going through with peace and joy, then that is consistent with written Scripture, because we know that according to the written Scriptural record, that is what God can do for someone.

But if another person prophesies to a person that he will become famous and wealthy through God's blessing of him; then we know that is false, because fame and wealth are not consistent with those who live godly in Christ. What the Scripture says is that suffering, persecution, being hated, and even death are the experiences that a godly person in Christ is more likely to encounter. So, the prophecy is not consistent with the Scriptural record.

Similarly, someone having a word of knowledge for a another, publicly exposing sin in that person's life, is not consistent with Scripture, because it is the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come, and that through the preaching of the gospel. If a person does get a word of knowledge that does reveal that a brother or sister is in sin which may bring disrepute on the church, then he needs to follow the instructions in Matthew about bringing correction to a sinning brother or sister in Christ. Blurting out a person's sins in public through a word of knowledge shows falsehood, because the way it is done is inconsistent with Scripture.

This is why I firmly believe that a person moving in prophecy or word of knowledge needs to be someone mighty in the Scriptures, and a person of prayer. A person who operates in these gifts and who doesn't spent at least tw hours in prayer with the Lord each day, should be ignored, because there is no assurance that they are speaking in harmony with the Holy Spirit. That is why there is so much misuse in these gifts - because of a lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, and a lack of personal fellowship with God in prayer.

Paul,

What would you say about David Wilkerson's prophecy of 1986? He was killed in an auto crash in 2011.

Is that statement found inside the Bible?

Oz

 

[Nancy]

I can only speak from the prospective of what I have seen and know, and I certainly have witnessed speaking in tongues, by many ( even though it is not something I can do ). I have witnessed healing , and read many testimonies regarding it. The Holy Spirit can manifest in many ways through Gods people, pictures, visions, words of knowledge and encouragements .......I do believe that ‘ in the last days ‘ the Holy Spirit will be poured out and , as I believe ‘ the last days ‘ began in Jesus’s time... I do not believe the gifts simply stopped.
Jesus demonstrated all kinds of things within his ministry to reveal who he was ect, but it was at Pentecost that those gifts were passed on to his people.....
I think the gifts have always been there but different generations and cultures have focused on different things and there hasn’t always been the same level of freedom for the gifts to be openly embraced everywhere. Even within my own generation and church experience I have seen much fear towards the gifts, and also a desire from one generation to favour ‘ going back to respectful worship and a very Victorian way of serving the Lord ( Hell and brimstone kind of teaching ) .........
I think we are also warned about aligning something to Satan that is from God. I think it is sad to limit God and his power - personally I would have thought the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is actually needed more now because so many have turned away from God ............
Rita

Hi Rita!
Makes me wonder if the usage of the gifts has decreased over time as the Church has weakened, and became more like the world and more and more into the Laodicean age... has caused God to hold back His gifts as there are so few with faith?
"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"
Luke 18:8
xo

 

[Truther]

@Truther

You are letting us know where you are in this. That's OK as everyone else does as well. The important thing is that we are on the approach to God during all of the time which remains to us. Of course, some, as I see it, deny that we have a choice in the matter. Some believe, or say they believe, that they already have it all.


Do you really believe that the Word of God in any written Book is perfect or complete? If you lose your Bible have you lost all that you had? If it "all" really were written on our hearts, what more would we need? Should a person then continue to grow toward God by reading his Bible and talking with God and allowing the Holy Ghost have the reign?

Having said that, who among us on this forum or any other setting has it "all" written in his heart? But, on the other hand if God is in us, what are our limits? Our limits are the ones we put on God by quenching the Holy Spirit in us... .

When is it that a person has received "all" that God has to give him? Perhaps when he limits own faith by saying it cannot be done.

Consider Solomon's words here:

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?" I Kings 8:27

God could not fit in that magnificent temple? Can God or His Word fit in the temple which we are... this little bit of earth? Perhaps not, and yet I doubt that anyone has been so full of God that he could not hold even more. Would not God be able to make more room if necessary and appropriate?



You really are missing an important point here:

"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." I Cor 13:8-10

The tongues will leave us when that which is perfect is come.

God who is perfect is already here. He is everywhere and always has been so it is Not speaking of that.

It is not speaking of a written manuscript or book such as the Bible for the Bible does not know a thing or do a thing by itself... even if it contains truth. Even if it does contain truth, the conflicts between individuals and denominations indicates that it is not perfect or complete in them. The Bible can be described as a powerful book, but that power is only potential power which can become reality when it is quickened by the Holy Spirit in a person who reads or hears it.

All of us here who believe in God and His Son have a part as per the verses I just quoted, but who has the complete or perfect thing? You @Truther ? Disagreements occur among believers because they each have less than the whole loaf and they often or usually fill in the gaps with their own opinions and/or carnal deductions.

I believe the KJV is the perfect word of God in English, which God gave to mankind for a witness of His word that endureth forever per the writings of Peter.

The alternative you are proposing is the word of God is subjective and does not endure forever, since the actual word of God is perfect.

Your position also allows you and modernists to be closet translators, which adds to the scriptural chaos that already exists.

 

[Rita]

Hi Rita!
Makes me wonder if the usage of the gifts has decreased over time as the Church has weakened, and became more like the world and more and more into the Laodicean age... has caused God to hold back His gifts as there are so few with faith?
"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"
Luke 18:8
xo

Reading a brilliant book on the gifts of the spirit - it was written some years ago and gives an interesting prospective on how there was an openness and then you can see how some with the gifts mis- used them because they didn’t understand everything about them from a biblical viewpoint........also from the prospective of time you can see how opposition and fear has pushed many to misunderstand why they were given, not to gain power as so many have done, but to benefit ‘ The Church ‘ .......also how it became ‘ look at me I am better than you because I can speak in tongues ‘ ‘ look at what I can do ‘ .........the gifts were never there to be used in comparisons, but in harmony - within the bounds of Gods people being equal, not above or below another Christian brother or sister.
You only have to look at some of the attitudes within this forum to see how many think they are above some people, while other may feel inferior as Christians. If this is happening here, what about everywhere else........Satan has well and truly created issues that should not be there, added to which how many are convinced that the gifts are irrelevant now - the the biggest victory.............
Rita

 

[Heart2Soul]

Reading a brilliant book on the gifts of the spirit - it was written some years ago and gives an interesting prospective on how there was an openness and then you can see how some with the gifts mis- used them because they didn’t understand everything about them from a biblical viewpoint........also from the prospective of time you can see how opposition and fear has pushed many to misunderstand why they were given, not to gain power as so many have done, but to benefit ‘ The Church ‘ .......also how it became ‘ look at me I am better than you because I can speak in tongues ‘ ‘ look at what I can do ‘ .........the gifts were never there to be used in comparisons, but in harmony - within the bounds of Gods people being equal, not above or below another Christian brother or sister.
You only have to look at some of the attitudes within this forum to see how many think they are above some people, while other may feel inferior as Christians. If this is happening here, what about everywhere else........Satan has well and truly created issues that should not be there, added to which how many are convinced that the gifts are irrelevant now - the the biggest victory.............
Rita

Well stated....it's time for a call to pray.....everyone.

 

[farouk]

Reading a brilliant book on the gifts of the spirit - it was written some years ago and gives an interesting prospective on how there was an openness and then you can see how some with the gifts mis- used them because they didn’t understand everything about them from a biblical viewpoint........also from the prospective of time you can see how opposition and fear has pushed many to misunderstand why they were given, not to gain power as so many have done, but to benefit ‘ The Church ‘ .......also how it became ‘ look at me I am better than you because I can speak in tongues ‘ ‘ look at what I can do ‘ .........the gifts were never there to be used in comparisons, but in harmony - within the bounds of Gods people being equal, not above or below another Christian brother or sister.
You only have to look at some of the attitudes within this forum to see how many think they are above some people, while other may feel inferior as Christians. If this is happening here, what about everywhere else........Satan has well and truly created issues that should not be there, added to which how many are convinced that the gifts are irrelevant now - the the biggest victory.............
Rita

@Rita The activities of Acts 2.42 ... continuing steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and in breaking of bread and in fellowship and prayers ... and their doctrinal significance, are what truly endure.

 

[Heart2Soul]

@Rita The activities of Acts 2.42 ... continuing steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and in breaking of bread and in fellowship and prayers ... and their doctrinal significance, are what truly endure.

The Holy Spirit is part of that doctrine....and whatever the Holy Spirit represents is still here. Don't you agree?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Paul,

I think you are going outside the Bible with that conclusion. The gifts of the Spirit include the word of knowledge, word of wisdom, prophecy, tongues & interpretation, etc., all of which are God's supernatural revelation to a person who then delivers the message to the congregation.

While I agree with you that the Scripture will be the primary source of God's speech to us, the gifts are other avenues for His ministry.

Oz

What I don't go along with are the Faith movement teachers claiming "new" revelation that has not already been revealed in the written Scriptures. Such as Benny Hinn's 9 persons in the trinity, and Kenneth Copeland's claim that he can control the weather, and stuff like that.

But when a believer is following Christ's law of love, and that is his motivation for seeking a spiritual gift, he cannot but manifest a gift according to the spirit of the Bible. Paul says, "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that you may prophesy".

I think the difference between appropriate use of a spiritual gift, and misuse, is the motivation behind it. If a person manifests a gift because he loves the brethren and wants the best of God for them, then his gift will be in the Spirit. But if a person uses prophecy or the word of knowledge to bolster his own reputation and swell the offerings, then he could be manifesting error.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Paul,

You have raised an issue of error in many Pentecostal churches I have visited. Whether in the congregation or small prayer/Bible study groups, they all tongues without interpretations. This is unbiblical according to 1 Cor 14:13-18 (NIV). Whenever there is the gift of tongues in a group it must be accompanied by the gift of interpretation?

Why? 'If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me' (1 Cor 14:11 NIV).

There is a place for tongues, without interpretation. That is for the individual in the prayer closet: 'Pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy. For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit' (1 Cor 14:1-2 NRSV).

My main concern with Pentecostal churches is this failure to teach accurately on the practice of the gifts of the Spirit, according to 1 Cor 12-14 (NIV).

Oz

Before we put a blanket ban on all gatherings where tongues are spoken, we must consider the full wording of the chapter and not leave anything out that may be significant.

"So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?" (1 Corinthians 14:23).

So, here Paul talks about the whole church coming together. So for a general public meeting where the whole church comes together, then it is better to have the gift of prophecy be used rather than tongues because people need to understand what is being said.

Next, the public meeting is the place where unbelievers will be coming in. That is usually the only meeting that would be open to unbelievers.

So, I fully agree that Paul would not approve of Pentecostal public meetings where tongues is spoke willy nilly without interpretation. But then, Paul told the Corinthians that when they spoke in tongues, even without interpretation, they were giving thanks well (verse 17), so Paul was not saying that they were not expressing true worship to God, it was doing it in the wrong environment.

But the Pentecostal prayer meeting is not a public meeting, and not meant to have unbelievers present. In fact, even if tongues was not spoken, unbelievers would be like fish out of water, and would not want to attend anyway. When people gather for prayer, they are are speaking together to God and not to each other (although some prayer meetings I have been in sound more like preaching to each other than real prayer to God). This means that participants are able to pray with the understanding and with the Spirit without violating Paul's teaching about it. A prayer meeting is not a Bible study or group teaching session. It is a prayer meeting directed to God. Therefore when people are together praying in tongues, interpretation is not needed because the tongues is directed solely to God and not each other. In fact, group prayer in tongues is better in a way, because then there is no "lecturing" to each other in the guise of prayer.

In actual fact, I have found Pentecostal prayer meetings active and exciting, and have included prophecy as well, and the AOG prayer meeting I went to as a young Christian was the powerhouse of the church, and it was common for about six or seven new converts turned to Christ in the Sunday night evangelistic meetings.

I have attended a number of prayer meetings in churches were tongues were never spoken, and they were little more than eyebrow-wiping sessions with one person lecturing (I mean praying) at one time with the others just passively listening. The Pentecostal ones involved every person praying along with the person leading in English prayer, supporting him with praying in tongues in heart-agreement with the prayer.

So, it is important to read the whole Scripture in this regard and not just quote the bits the support one particular opinion.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Paul,

What would you say about David Wilkerson's prophecy of 1986? He was killed in an auto crash in 2011.

Is that statement found inside the Bible?

Oz

I have doubts, because Prophets for the Nation ceased at the death of John the Baptizer. I have the greatest respect for David Wilkerson for the great work he has done for Christ in his ministry, but he is fulfilling a non-existent role that is not supported by the New Testament.

Also, there have been a number of other prophecies about a great revival coming on the world, but Jesus taught the opposite - He said that there would be a great falling away in the last days. The Covid-19 virus has been active since February and has affected the whole world, but so did the bird flu pandemic some years ago, and we are not seeing any signs of the great revival that he is prophesying.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Hi Rita!
Makes me wonder if the usage of the gifts has decreased over time as the Church has weakened, and became more like the world and more and more into the Laodicean age... has caused God to hold back His gifts as there are so few with faith?
"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"
Luke 18:8
xo

When Constantine made Christianity the state religion of the Roman empire he closed the pagan temples and turned them into Christian churches. Along with that, pagan festivals became Christian ones, and many pagan ceremonies were changed into Christian ones. This caused Christian worship to become paganised, and along with the church bishops assuming authority over how services were run, instead of believers moving in the Spirit through prophecy and other contribution from what the Lord was showing them, the Holy Spirit gradually withdrew as those who were genuinely filled with Spirit died off, and those professing religion but not filled with the Spirit became dominant among the leadership and members of the churches.

So when the church mutated into a dead monument of what it was once, the gifts were no longer active. Through the centuries, any group of faithful believers who sought God and received the Spiritual gifts and started manifesting them, was brutally suppressed by the dead monument called the established church.

 

[OzSpen]

Before we put a blanket ban on all gatherings where tongues are spoken, we must consider the full wording of the chapter and not leave anything out that may be significant.

"So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?" (1 Corinthians 14:23).

So, here Paul talks about the whole church coming together. So for a general public meeting where the whole church comes together, then it is better to have the gift of prophecy be used rather than tongues because people need to understand what is being said.

Next, the public meeting is the place where unbelievers will be coming in. That is usually the only meeting that would be open to unbelievers.

So, I fully agree that Paul would not approve of Pentecostal public meetings where tongues is spoke willy nilly without interpretation. But then, Paul told the Corinthians that when they spoke in tongues, even without interpretation, they were giving thanks well (verse 17), so Paul was not saying that they were not expressing true worship to God, it was doing it in the wrong environment.

But the Pentecostal prayer meeting is not a public meeting, and not meant to have unbelievers present. In fact, even if tongues was not spoken, unbelievers would be like fish out of water, and would not want to attend anyway. When people gather for prayer, they are are speaking together to God and not to each other (although some prayer meetings I have been in sound more like preaching to each other than real prayer to God). This means that participants are able to pray with the understanding and with the Spirit without violating Paul's teaching about it. A prayer meeting is not a Bible study or group teaching session. It is a prayer meeting directed to God. Therefore when people are together praying in tongues, interpretation is not needed because the tongues is directed solely to God and not each other. In fact, group prayer in tongues is better in a way, because then there is no "lecturing" to each other in the guise of prayer.

In actual fact, I have found Pentecostal prayer meetings active and exciting, and have included prophecy as well, and the AOG prayer meeting I went to as a young Christian was the powerhouse of the church, and it was common for about six or seven new converts turned to Christ in the Sunday night evangelistic meetings.

I have attended a number of prayer meetings in churches were tongues were never spoken, and they were little more than eyebrow-wiping sessions with one person lecturing (I mean praying) at one time with the others just passively listening. The Pentecostal ones involved every person praying along with the person leading in English prayer, supporting him with praying in tongues in heart-agreement with the prayer.

So, it is important to read the whole Scripture in this regard and not just quote the bits the support one particular opinion.

Paul,

The apostle is very strict in his God-given message of how the ministry of tongues ought to be expressed in the public gathering.

For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an enquirer, say ‘Amen’ to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue....

26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two – or at the most three – should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God (1 Cor 14:13-18, 26-28 NIV).​

That is not what I see happening in the Pentecostal churches in my region. It is chaotic at their worship times. Paul's message to them would be the same as he gave the Corinthians: 'Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way' (1 Cor 14:39-40 NIV).

However, I see and hear chaos in Pentecostal churches in my region.

Oz

​

 

[OzSpen]

I believe the KJV is the perfect word of God in English, which God gave to mankind for a witness of His word that endureth forever per the writings of Peter.

The alternative you are proposing is the word of God is subjective and does not endure forever, since the actual word of God is perfect.

Your position also allows you and modernists to be closet translators, which adds to the scriptural chaos that already exists.

Thanks for your opinion Truther.

 

[Pathfinder7]

When Constantine made Christianity the state religion of the Roman empire he closed the pagan temples and turned them into Christian churches. Along with that, pagan festivals became Christian ones, and many pagan ceremonies were changed into Christian ones. This caused Christian worship to become paganised, and along with the church bishops assuming authority over how services were run, instead of believers moving in the Spirit through prophecy and other contribution from what the Lord was showing them, the Holy Spirit gradually withdrew as those who were genuinely filled with Spirit died off, and those professing religion but not filled with the Spirit became dominant among the leadership and members of the churches.

So when the church mutated into a dead monument of what it was once, the gifts were no longer active. Through the centuries, any group of faithful believers who sought God and received the Spiritual gifts and started manifesting them, was brutally suppressed by the dead monument called the established church.

Good point / comment.
- I agree.
---
It is interesting to note.. as you mentioned.
- There was 'manifestation of spiritual gifts'..
from time to time.. in Christian history.
- Even under suppression by 'church establishment.'

 

[Paul Christensen]

Paul,

The apostle is very strict in his God-given message of how the ministry of tongues ought to be expressed in the public gathering.

For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an enquirer, say ‘Amen’ to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue....

26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two – or at the most three – should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God (1 Cor 14:13-18, 26-28 NIV).​

That is not what I see happening in the Pentecostal churches in my region. It is chaotic at their worship times. Paul's message to them would be the same as he gave the Corinthians: 'Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way' (1 Cor 14:39-40 NIV).

However, I see and hear chaos in Pentecostal churches in my region.

Oz

​

The Pentecostal prayer meeting is not a public meeting in the same sense as the public Sunday service. If you are hearing chaos in Pentecostal churches in your region, then they are not following Paul's teaching concerning tongues in public Sunday services. However, in my 50 years of being associated with Pentecostal churches and ministries, I have never witnessed chaos in any Pentecostal services or conferences I have attended. They have all been run decently and in order.

The only chaos that I have seen is in Youtube videos of Faith movement churches like Bethel where they have all sorts of kundalini out-of-control tongues, laughter, and other extremely wacky manifestations that I have never seen personally in the Pentecostal churches I have attended. I also have seen Benny Hinn services and those of Brownsville, and have my doubts about the things that have gone on in them. But NZ Pentecostal churches are very reserved and well controlled because of good, strong, sound leadership that does not accept the wacky, chaotic stuff.

Perhaps Aussie Pentecostals are more like American ones and tend to go over the top, if that what you have witnessed of them.