More about Salvation

[APAK]

Ah yes thanks 1 John 4:13 I had just looked up and read 10:12 got them mixed up. A few things stick out at me Jesus wasn't made he always existed(1 John 1) What happened at the miracle of the virgin birth is He became Flesh (john1:14) A body prepared for him (Hebrews 10:5) Born of a woman he could be fully human in order to bear the penalty for our sins, conceived by the miracle By the holy Spirit He had no earthly father, I think the answer is found in The title of only Begotten Son his Father was God himself, when he came into the world he retained his divinity (Philippians 2:8) So he could be fully Man, And fully God at the same time, Full Man So he could become the savior of Men And Fully God so able to Be tempted like us but still be without Sin, Only God Is Good

As for Jesus Having the breath I would say Jesus Is that Breath Look at the language of Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6.

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63.

But Simon Peter answered Him, ‘Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. John 6:68.

God Said let there be light (gen 1), Light Came into the World (John 3:19), Jesus Was the true Light Which lighteth every man that cometh into the world (John 1:9)

Back again...one step at a time or one verse at a time then,,,back to the discussion of the 1st and 2nd Adam and the connection to one of your verses.

Luke 1:35 the angel told Mary that the Spirit of the Father shall come over her and power of the most high one, shall immerse or come into her, so as to conceive and make or birth this holy thing/one, called Yahshua, the Son of Man and also the Son of God of the Father - a human being. The idiom 'the most high' is always applied to the Father, exclusively. And the Father's Spirit is his own breathe as used with the 1st Adam, for his birth and life. So the Son cannot be his own Father's breath or his Father's Spirit. That would make no sense at all. There is nothing too complicated to understand in Luke 1:35.

Yahshua or Jesus was thus born and came into the world from Mary's body, over 2000 years ago.

APAK

 

[justbyfaith]

Thank you. That makes sense.

So if one believes in Him they SHOULD be saved IF they continue believing and stay faithful to Him they will, in the end, have eternal life. (John 3:16)

But the one who believes AND is baptized shall be saved, but IF they stop believing (you can’t take the water baptism back) you will be condemned (Mark 16:16)

It seems they are both “iffy” to me!!! That isn’t how you see it?

The one who believes and is baptized will seal their faith in Him...so that they will never fall away from faith...they will never stop believing if they were baptized with believing.

The promise is that they "shall" be saved...that is absolute terminology.

If I merely believe, I am promised that I "should" not perish...this terminology is lessa absolute.

 

[HisLife]

Back again...one step at a time or one verse at a time then,,,back to the discussion of the 1st and 2nd Adam and the connection to one of your verses.

Luke 1:35 the angel told Mary that the Spirit of the Father shall come over her and power of the most high one, shall immerse or come into her, so as to conceive and make or birth this holy thing/one, called Yahshua, the Son of Man and also the Son of God of the Father - a human being. The idiom 'the most high' is always applied to the Father, exclusively. And the Father's Spirit is his own breathe as used with the 1st Adam, for his birth and life. So the Son cannot be his own Father's breath or his Father's Spirit. That would make no sense at all. There is nothing too complicated to understand in Luke 1:35.

Yahshua or Jesus was thus born and came into the world from Mary's body, over 2000 years ago.

APAK

Nice I used to live in Feilding almost halfway between Levin and Napier, lived in Napier only a few years, sunny and lots of orchards here and lots of fruit its nice

Fair enough ill try to stick to one step at a time and will try link the verses to the same point as best I can but I will probably fail, Yes I agree the most high Applies to the Father, As does the Almighty, In revelation 1:8 Jesus says I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Going back a bit Yes Jesus was born and came into the world over 2000 years ago But that was when he became a man and took on flesh, He existed before then, as examples

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

So We need to go back and look at Who Jesus was before he was born in the flesh

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

When you begin to speak you exhale. The words you speak are not from another they come from inside, Your words come from your heart, Luke 6:45 And from the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks, God Words are from his Heart

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

It's amazing that God Didn't Just speak Man into existence He put his breath (Spirit) inside

Gen 1 1-3 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said (word), Let there be light: and there was light.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

So I'm Summary The Word Of God OR the Breath Of God come From inside God, Jesus Is the Word Of God Who was in the Behning With God, The Word became Flesh and dwelt among us, Emanuel (God with Us) and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[Waiting on him]

Back again...one step at a time or one verse at a time then,,,back to the discussion of the 1st and 2nd Adam and the connection to one of your verses.

Luke 1:35 the angel told Mary that the Spirit of the Father shall come over her and power of the most high one, shall immerse or come into her, so as to conceive and make or birth this holy thing/one, called Yahshua, the Son of Man and also the Son of God of the Father - a human being. The idiom 'the most high' is always applied to the Father, exclusively. And the Father's Spirit is his own breathe as used with the 1st Adam, for his birth and life. So the Son cannot be his own Father's breath or his Father's Spirit. That would make no sense at all. There is nothing too complicated to understand in Luke 1:35.

Yahshua or Jesus was thus born and came into the world from Mary's body, over 2000 years ago.

APAK

John 20:22 KJV
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Seems rather odd?

 

[Marymog]

The one who believes and is baptized will seal their faith in Him...so that they will never fall away from faith...they will never stop believing if they were baptized with believing.

The promise is that they "shall" be saved...that is absolute terminology.

If I merely believe, I am promised that I "should" not perish...this terminology is lessa absolute.

Hi JBF,

Scripture says that there are some that “believe only for a while and in a time of testing fall away” (Luke 8:13)

Isn’t that passage at odds with your “they will never fall away” interpretation of Scripture?

Mary

 

[APAK]

Nice I used to live in Feilding almost halfway between Levin and Napier, lived in Napier only a few years, sunny and lots of orchards here and lots of fruit its nice

Fair enough ill try to stick to one step at a time and will try link the verses to the same point as best I can but I will probably fail, Yes I agree the most high Applies to the Father, As does the Almighty, In revelation 1:8 Jesus says I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Going back a bit Yes Jesus was born and came into the world over 2000 years ago But that was when he became a man and took on flesh, He existed before then, as examples

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

So We need to go back and look at Who Jesus was before he was born in the flesh

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

When you begin to speak you exhale. The words you speak are not from another they come from inside, Your words come from your heart, Luke 6:45 And from the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks, God Words are from his Heart

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

It's amazing that God Didn't Just speak Man into existence He put his breath (Spirit) inside

Gen 1 1-3 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said (word), Let there be light: and there was light.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

So I'm Summary The Word Of God OR the Breath Of God come From inside God, Jesus Is the Word Of God Who was in the Behning With God, The Word became Flesh and dwelt among us, Emanuel (God with Us) and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

HisLife...let me look at the John 8:58....as a type of commentary for you...

Before that though let me go back a few verses to verse 53 to appreciate the context and the setting..It was a heated discussion going on between Jesus and the religious leaders and /or the followers of the Pharisees...

Up to this point in the interchange between Jesus and these Judeans, Jesus is thought of as a nobody that wants to make a name for himself or by some, he is even possessed by a demon, an evil man.

So now they ask Jesus about their father Abraham and if Jesus thinks he is greater than him. Abraham, their dead spiritual father figure and leader means much more to them than Jesus, who is young, alive and with no credentials, as far as they can see. They ask Jesus the same question of greatness concerning the dead prophets.

So how can Jesus measure up against the prophets and especially Abraham?

Jesus turns up the heat in the argument and again calls them liars because they really do not know God. They do not have the spirit of truth.

Then Jesus prepares to light the fuse of dynamite before throwing it into the argument. The preparatory question as a statement raised was that Abraham knew (‘saw my day’) Jesus would be born and become the Savior of all, and he was filled with joy. Abraham believed in the promises of God, including a future Messiah. (Heb 11:8-13, 17-19)

They did not believe Jesus, and the relevance of his statement, as they queried his young age as to say, 'how can you be Abraham’s contemporary,' at least.

Again, these people in heart and minds trained on the physical world only; their spirits were far away from the truth and God.

Now to verse 58...

Jesus, tired of their ignorance finally answered their question they posed in verse 53. Jesus said very emphatically that he is greater or of higher rank and importance than any other human being, and the prophets, including Abraham. He is the only human being that trumps Abraham; before or after him on this earth.

They finally got the message, after all of Jesus' words sunk in. He claimed his authority was higher that Abraham’s even in his time, and this authority came from the Father of Abraham – and not theirs. Jesus accused them of being liars and murderers and their father is the author of lies and a murderer. Fuming, they picked up stones to kill him. Their thoughts at this time were of Jesus daring to accuse them of being void of God and therefore not with Abraham, evil and of the devil. Jesus' accused them of what they accused him being. They themselves were lawless and broke the Law as they wished.

Jesus effectively divided them, as not being of the spiritual seed of Abraham even though some of them were of his physical descendants (verse 33).

(Joh 8:58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (KJV)

(Joh 8:58) Jesus said to them: Truly, truly, I say to you: I am of higher status than Abraham ever was (NEV)

So, to the two parts of unneeded contention.

1. Using KJV...."Before Abraham".....

This means that even before Abraham was born, Jesus existed to be the Savior of all, and much higher in status, in the mind of his Father. There is no basis to leap to a conclusion that Jesus existed before he was actually physically born, or even worse, that he is tied to running around and creating the Universe etc.....once you go down this rabbit hole, it is a real underground maze you are in...easily lost for good..need to get back out redress scripture as it is written.

2. Using KJV.."I am"....
To answer this part I must look at the Greek and Hebrew language. The Greek transliterated expression ‘ego eimi’ means "I am."
For some reason that I do know of course (the Trinitarian bias and therefore the deliberate skewing of selective scripture) verse 58b has become distorted by many. Because the way verse 58 is structured into its English translation, many want to see Jesus as the Almighty in the expression "I am." It is just that, wishful thinking. They thus try to force and say that YHWH called himself (the) 'I AM.' Notice they even capitalize these two words to persuade with vigor. They look at Exodus 3:14 and state, YHWH calls himself the great "I AM" and Jesus said the same, here in verse 58. Nothing could be further from the truth however.

In Exodus 3:14, YHWH called himself to Moses, in Hebrew, אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה‎, to ’ehyeh ’ăšer ’ehyeh . If we wanted to translate this expression into Greek, to compare what is said in verse 58b, we see they are completely different expressions in translation and meaning. It would translate into English as: ‘ego eimi ho ōn’ This is not the same as ‘ego eimi’ at all. YHWH gave an expression of himself, of his personal name. A rough English translation would be like: ‘I am who I am,’ ‘I am that I am,’ ‘I am the being’ or ‘I am the existing one’ or ‘I am existing,’ and other words for this effect – never just ‘I am.’ You see in Greek, ‘ego eimi’ is a common expression used by ALL people and not just Jesus. It literally means, that I am he or she, the one who is the subject at hand, and usually in a very emphatic and prejudicial way. Ex: I am the one who stole the pie, no one else...It was I who won the race and not he or she......

Now to go to the extreme, let me provide examples where ‘ego eimi’ to 'I am' is used in the NT and replace them with YHWH....or even 'I am that I am'

Matt 10:16 - YHWH/I am that I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves.

Matt 16:15 - He said to them: But who do you say that YHWH/I am that I am?

Matt 24:5 - For many shall come in my name, saying: YHWH/I am that I am the Christ, and shall lead many astray.

Luke 1:19 - And the angel answering said to him: YHWH/I am that I am Gabriel who stands in the presence of God..

Luke 22:33 - And he said to him: Lord, with you YHWH/I am that I am ready to go both to prison and to death.

John 1:20 - He confessed, he did not deny, but confessed: YHWH/I am that I am not the Christ!

John 8:58b - Before Abraham, YHWH/I am that I am


Anyway, you get my drift...


Bless you,

APAK

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi JBF,

Scripture says that there are some that “believe only for a while and in a time of testing fall away” (Luke 8:13)

Isn’t that passage at odds with your “they will never fall away” interpretation of Scripture?

Mary

There are two different types of faith:

1) a mental assent that is nominal, lukewarm, and shallow (the Luke 8:13 type).

2) A heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14).

 

[Marymog]

There are two different types of faith:

1) a mental assent that is nominal, lukewarm, and shallow (the Luke 8:13 type).

2) A heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14).

Huh???

 

[justbyfaith]

Huh???

Just take the time to think about what I said. Maybe look up the verses too.

 

[Behold]

It matters very much WHO defines "good". It seems as if everyone knows Ephesians 2:8-9, but not as many know what follows next (v.10). Also, James writes about the relationship between faith and good works in the second chapter of his letter, and Paul writes to Titus about the relationship between grace and works in the second chapter of that letter. Grace is the most awesome gift of God, but it was never meant as an excuse for living a life not pleasing to God.

Here is the problem with what you are thinking..

"It matters very much who defines good"... you wrote.

Then you write about works as if this proves "good" or defines who is good, and that is how a LOST person would define it
So...
Here is a rule for you to learn to see.

"spiritual fruit", can be FAKED.
"good works" are committed by the worst unbelieving devils, and not just by real believers.
Just because someone has a Church, or talks about Jesus, ......this is no proof they are born again, and its certainly a fact that you have to learn to discern who is the fakir, the liar, the fraud, vs who is the Saint...the True Believer. The REAL Disciple.

Its like this Reader...... "Satan comes as an Angel of LIGHT", and HIS Ministers as "ministers of RIGHTEOUSNESS"..

How let me show you a LIGHT....a Key.

Notice....>"ministers of Righteousness".......... let me explain.
The Devil's preachers will preach law, commandments, abiding, as how to keep yourself saved, = as that is ministering the devils righteousness.
In other words, not knowing the Righteousness of God.....not possessing it themselves, all they can talk about is WORKS and EFFORT and Commadment keeping, and Abiding, and Repenting..., as THEIR idea of Righteousness, which is the Devil's.

See it?

A REAL teacher, Preacher, Minister, will teach you that GOD's Righteousness is not the same as your SELF EFFORT.

So, you think about that Reader, and learn to SEE who to believe.

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe that a real evangelist will preach the law as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24) as the means by which they will come to understand that they are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20) in order that they might be converted by the law (Psalms 19:7 (kjv)).

While the law does not have the power to save (impart life)...Galatians 3:21.

It does have the power to save (convert a person to faith in Christ; who is the only one who can save).

 

[ChristisGod]

in order that they might be converted by the law (Psalms 19:7 (kjv)).

While the law does not have the power to save (impart life)...Galatians 3:21.

It does have the power to save (convert a person to faith in Christ; who is the only one who can save).

You are espousing 2 types of salvation.

There is only one way to be saved from sin. And its not through the Law which is why we have a NEW TESTAMENT. Jesus fulfilled the LAW.

Read Galatians. Salvation is by grace through faith apart from the Law.

Galatians 3
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

hope this helps !!!

 

[justbyfaith]

You are espousing 2 types of salvation.

There is only one way to be saved from sin. And its not through the Law which is why we have a NEW TESTAMENT. Jesus fulfilled the LAW.

Read Galatians. Salvation is by grace through faith apart from the Law.

Galatians 3
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

hope this helps !!!

It is in Paul's epistle to the Galatians that he tells us that the law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24).

In Romans 3:20 we find that through the law we find the knowledge of sin; I believe this means that the law was given to show us that we are sinners in need of a Saviour.

In Psalms 19:7 (kjv) we find the reality that the law does have the power to convert the soul.

Here, let me quote it for you.

Psa 19:7, The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

I see you do not know the difference between a Jew under the law in the OT and a gentile under grace in the NT.

But hey like they say at Burger King- you can have it your way...........................

Fast Food theology..............................

 

[justbyfaith]

I see you do not know the difference between a Jew under the law in the OT and a gentile under grace in the NT.

But hey like they say at Burger King- you can have it your way...........................

Fast Food theology..............................

Apparently you want to have it your way rather than the Bible way..................................

 

[ChristisGod]

No Gods way as per Ephesians 2:8-10

next................................................

 

[justbyfaith]

No Gods way as per Ephesians 2:8-10

next................................................

Grace, salvation, and the law, are not mutually exclusive.

Psa 119:29, Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.
.
.
.
It is written,

Psa 119:93, I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

Yet salvation is by grace through faith.

How then is a man quickened by the precepts of the Lord?

 

[justbyfaith]

Ephesians 2:8-9, also does not nullify what we can learn from Galatians 3:24, Romans 3:20, and Psalms 19:7 (kjv).

And I think that you are rejecting this word because it is coming from me.

If another Bible student were to point the same things out to you, you would accept them readily; because it is biblical doctrine (and i don' think that you have hardened your heart against the Bible itself; just against a particular bearer of the good news that has somehow caused you to be in opposition to his own words).

 

[ChristisGod]

maybe you should change your approach/style online as you seem to respond in an attacking mode rather than a discussion and sharing scripture, ideas, experience etc.......

try discussing things not trying to prove other people wrong and see things from their perspective.

 

[justbyfaith]

maybe you should change your approach/style online as you seem to respond in an attacking mode rather than a discussion and sharing scripture, ideas, experience etc.......

try discussing things not trying to prove other people wrong and see things from their perspective.

Take the beam out of your eye before you try to cast the speck out of mine, brother.