More biblical proof that supports Amillennialism

[jeffweeder]

Really? Where does it say that Jesus is on earth with 144000 and then goes to heaven? You add so much unto Scripture. It is ridiculous. That is because you have no Bible support.

The wrath of God is upon the wicked. Ask Pharaoh! Revelation is several recaps ending at the one and only second coming. You cannot see that because your teachers have deceived you. Because you do not see the recaps in Revelation you are totally confused by what it saying.

The sixth seal totally demolishers the Premillennial scheme. It shows the conflagration and the destruction of all the wicked. This relays the Amil position. Let us look at the text in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

This is the time of God's final wrath upon the earth. The wicked are so afraid of their impending doom that they want the mountains and rocks to fall on them. Think about this: being crushed by mountains and rocks appeals more to them than facing God's wrath. No wicked will survive this.

Once again, this text finishes with a rhetorical question. The obvious answer (to those who do not have their own theological agenda) is that no one will survive this climatic event.

Revelation 6:12-17 depicts the conflagration that accompanies the return of Christ. It sees the regeneration of this earth and the destruction of all the wicked. This agrees with multiple Scripture.

· The sun became black
· The moon became as blood
· The stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
· The heaven departs like a scroll
· Every mountain and island are moved out of their places

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally transformed. This occurs at the climactic return of Christ.

Scripture shows Jesus one and only coming to be totally climactic. When Jesus comes that is it - caught up or caught on, saved or lost, eternal bliss or eternal torment. It is the end. No one survives (see above).

Exactly right Bro'
This one scripture alone shows Jesus comes just a second time to usher in the complete restoration resulting in a NHNE that Peter looked forward to at his appearing.

The Final judgment is done and all things are made new.

Act 3
18 And so God has fulfilled what He foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ (Messiah, Anointed) would suffer. 19 So repent [change your inner self—your old way of thinking, regret past sins] and return [to God—seek His purpose for your life], so that your sins may be wiped away [blotted out, completely erased], so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord [restoring you like a cool wind on a hot day]; 20 and that He may send [to you] Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must keep until the time for the [complete] restoration of all things about which God promised through the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your countrymen; you shall listen to Him and obey everything He tells you. 23 And it will be that every person that does not listen to and heed that Prophet will be utterly destroyed from among the people.’

 

[jeffweeder]

Paul clarified saying, not as most have believed, "but each one in his own order." Which means, yes "future" for those to whom He has not yet "come in to", but also past for those to whom He has already "come in to."

Such is the transition between time and eternity...therefore it was likewise correct to say we "were" crucified with Christ...even 2,000 years ago when Paul said it, just as it is now also written.

We are all (whether past present or future) Glorified at his appearing a second time at the end of this age/world.

2Tim 4
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure [from this world] is at hand and I will soon go free. 7 I have fought the good and worthy and noble fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith [firmly guarding the gospel against error].

8 In the future there is reserved for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and longed for and welcomed His appearing.

 

[WPM]

Paul clarified saying, not as most have believed, "but each one in his own order." Which means, yes "future" for those to whom He has not yet "come in to", but also past for those to whom He has already "come in to."

Such is the transition between time and eternity...therefore it was likewise correct to say we "were" crucified with Christ...even 2,000 years ago when Paul said it, just as it is now also written.

It is at that time that all that is written of the end comes to pass "but each one in his own order."

So, is the physical resurrection an ongoing process or a final climactic event? When is incorruption lifted?

 

[ScottA]

We are all (whether past present or future) Glorified at his appearing a second time at the end of this age/world.

2Tim 4
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure [from this world] is at hand and I will soon go free. 7 I have fought the good and worthy and noble fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith [firmly guarding the gospel against error].

8 In the future there is reserved for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and longed for and welcomed His appearing.

Again, the wording is correct to the flesh according to the flesh and this world, but also correct to the discernment of the Spirit.

Notice that he said "have loved" (past tense) as well as those who "longed for" (any tense).

 

[WPM]

This one scripture alone shows Jesus comes just a second time to usher in the complete restoration resulting in a NHNE that Peter looked forward to at his appearing.

The Final judgment is done and all things are made new.

Act 3
18 And so God has fulfilled what He foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ (Messiah, Anointed) would suffer. 19 So repent [change your inner self—your old way of thinking, regret past sins] and return [to God—seek His purpose for your life], so that your sins may be wiped away [blotted out, completely erased], so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord [restoring you like a cool wind on a hot day]; 20 and that He may send [to you] Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must keep until the time for the [complete] restoration of all things about which God promised through the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your countrymen; you shall listen to Him and obey everything He tells you. 23 And it will be that every person that does not listen to and heed that Prophet will be utterly destroyed from among the people.’

If one cannot get to B with him, how can one get to Z?

 

[ScottA]

So, is the physical resurrection an ongoing process or a final climactic event? When is incorruption lifted?

Physical resurrection is "but each one in his own order", and yet the old body of flesh remains just as it was for Jesus until he ascended. This is what Paul referred to, saying, "for me, to live is Christ"...confirming also that we are His body and the return of Him in the flesh.

There is no single climactic event in this world, but rather in heaven where yesterday, today, and forever are the same.

 

[WPM]

Physical resurrection is "but each one in his own order", and yet the old body of flesh remains just as it was for Jesus until he ascended. This is what Paul referred to, saying, "for me, to live is Christ"...confirming also that we are His body and the return of Him in the flesh.

There is no single climactic event in this world, but rather in heaven where yesterday, today, and forever are the same.

So, you deny the literal physical visible event of the return of Christ for His people. Biblically, that makes you a heretic. How these boards attract such people. You should not be allowed to post here. Sad! The Word of God condemns people like you:

2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[ScottA]

So, you deny the literal physical visible event of the return of Christ for His people. Biblically, that makes you a heretic. How these boards attract such people. You should not be allowed to post here. Sad! The Word of God condemns people like you:

2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, butto the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Your not understanding the scriptures and/or me explaining them to you, does not make me a "heretic" (name-calling) any more than it would make Jesus a heretic for explaining that one must be born again to Nicodemus.

Nonetheless, I did not "deny the literal physical visible event of the return of Christ for His people", which makes you a false witness. Read it again: "For me, to live is Christ" is "the literal physical visible event of the return of Christ for His people."

 

[WPM]

Your not understanding the scriptures and/or me explaining them to you, does not make me a "heretic" (name-calling) any more than it would make Jesus a heretic for explaining that one must be born again to Nicodemus.

Nonetheless, I did not "deny the literal physical visible event of the return of Christ for His people", which makes you a false witness. Read it again: "For me, to live is Christ" is "the literal physical visible event of the return of Christ for His people."

Not so. I am telling you the truth.

You deny a glorious future event where Jesus comes to raise the dead, judge mankind, and regenerate creation - something that is clearly outlined in Scripture. The Scriptures expose you as a heretic. I am not going to waste my time trying to convince a heretic who does not want to change. Sorry. I am done with you. I am shaking the does of my shoes. There is no one as blind as one who cannot see.

 

[ScottA]

Not so. I am telling you the truth.

You deny a glorious future event where Jesus comes to raise the dead, judge mankind, and regenerate creation - something that is clearly outlined in Scripture. The Scriptures expose you as a heretic. I am not going to waste my time trying to convince a heretic who does not want to change. Sorry. I am done with you. I am shaking the does of my shoes. There is no one as blind as one who cannot see.

With what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

 

[WPM]

With what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

It is the Book that judges you. It is God that defines what a heretic is.

 

[ScottA]

It is the Book that judges you. It is God that defines what a heretic is.

Likewise a false witness.

 

[WPM]

Likewise a false witness.

True. He can judge who is heretical or not.

You fulfill the blueprint. Bye!

 

[Timtofly]

Millennialists attempt to force His second coming to be His first coming and attach it to this imagined ONE THOUSAND years of TIME on this earth. The insanity of this doctrine would be laughable if it were not deceiving so many!

Umm. Funny that the start of Amil's millennium is the first coming and it ends at the Second Coming. You already do that insanity. We keep pointing out that those beheaded are at the Second Coming, and reign after being resurrected, for a thousand years. You keep putting those beheaded people in the first century prior to the Cross, and prior to your millennium.

 

[Timtofly]

There is nothing reasonable when it comes to millennialists!

I agree that Amil's millennium is unreasonable.

There is no sin in the 1,000 year reign of Revelation 20. Amil who declare it is the here and now are adding sin to the text of Revelation 20.

 

[rwb]

Umm. Funny that the start of Amil's millennium is the first coming and it ends at the Second Coming. You already do that insanity. We keep pointing out that those beheaded are at the Second Coming, and reign after being resurrected, for a thousand years. You keep putting those beheaded people in the first century prior to the Cross, and prior to your millennium.

John writes those beheaded souls he sees in heaven have LIVED and REIGNED during TIME which a thousand years is. It's written in past tense because they were alive in TIME, when they were martyred for their faith. But death had no power over them, because in life they had partaken of the first resurrection through Christ. For that reason John sees them ALIVE in heaven after they have physically died in TIME as living souls.

Then John writes all who have died (the rest of the dead) who had not lived and reigned with Christ in TIME (a thousand years) will not live again until TIME, (a thousand years) has expired. They will be physically resurrected when Christ comes the second time, when TIME for this age shall be no longer. They will be resurrected for judgment, and since in TIME (a thousand years) they had not partaken in the first resurrection, they must stand before God at the GWTJ.

Next we read that John writes also of those he calls holy and blessed because they too shall have part in the first resurrection while alive in TIME on this earth. They shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him in TIME (a thousand years). They are not numbered among the martyred saints John sees as living souls in heaven because during TIME they have not yet been born, or have not yet partaken of the first resurrection through Christ. That's why John speaks of them in future tense, and not past as with the martyred souls in heaven.

Finally John writes that when TIME (the thousand years) have expired Satan is loosed for a "little season" after TIME (the thousand years) given this age shall be no longer. After Satan gathers together his minions, the fire of God comes down from heaven and destroys them all. Believers who are still alive in TIME on this earth during Satan's little season will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air until the wrath of God is over. Then John writes of the GWTJ for "the DEAD", judged by what is written in the books and the book of life. Since their names are not written among the living, they are cast into the burning flames; the second death for them.

 

[rwb]

I agree that Amil's millennium is unreasonable.

There is no sin in the 1,000 year reign of Revelation 20. Amil who declare it is the here and now are adding sin to the text of Revelation 20.

After the thousand years for millennialists when Satan is loosed, he gathers Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristians) to surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city. If there is no sin during this imaginary literal ONE thousand years, how can there be antichrists and antichristians to gather together for battle? You do realize anti means against Christ, and Christians? If there is no sin in your millennium there could be none who are against Christ and against Christians! Your doctrine is pure myth, conceived, it would appear by those who've had a little too much happy juice!

 

[Timtofly]

I do believe a future millennium is an illusion. It will never happen. I do believe what Premils attribute to Rev 20 (and Scripture) cannot be found in the sacred text. I therefore reserve the right to call out your extra-biblical speculations until you desist from making them. That is fair and reasonable.

That is the answer. Your interpretation of Revelation 20 is an illusion. You just declared your paradigm. That is an extra biblical speculation. No where in Scripture is the 1,000 year reign referred to as an illusion. Most readers would accept an actual 1,000 year reign, not an illusion made up by Amil, who claim this means indefinite. It could go on for billions of years in your explanation of the sands of the sea interpretation. Yet this passage is just an illusion to you, and not reality.

Of course the pot calling the kettle black is your literal reality of eschatology. It is fair that you are wrong, just as much as those whom you are accusing of being wrong.

 

[Timtofly]

If this were truth why does the author of Hebrews tell us Christ shall appear the second time, and say nothing about a third appearance?

Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Did Jesus appear after the Cross? Are you saying Jesus never died nor left the Cross, to enter the grave? Jesus jumped off the Cross and started ministering to people? Jesus already left once at the Cross and returned 3 days later. Why do you not call that the Second Coming?

You need to get real about how Jesus can leave and return to earth within days, but no one is picky about calling each return a totally different coming. The first coming was in the first century. The Second Coming soon. But Jesus is not bound to this earth, and can come and go as He pleases. So your argument is moot. The Second Coming could have as many or more comings and goings as what happened in the first century.

 

[Timtofly]

You have been taught so wrong. This is all man's reasoning.

Pretribbers rip Jacob's troubles from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it to some imaginary seven-year period at the end, to support their end-time beliefs.

A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. Also, it has absolutely nothing to do with the end of time. It rather describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.

Jacob's trouble is shown to relate to Babylonian captivity which occurred back in Nebuchadrezzar’s day. Let us let the Bible speak for itself.

Jeremiah 1:3 “It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.”

Jeremiah 2:27-28: “they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.”

Jeremiah 8:14-15: “assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD. We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! "

Jeremiah 11:10-12: “They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.”

Jeremiah 14:7: “O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee. O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble.”

Jeremiah 15:2: “And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.”

Jeremiah 20:4: “For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.”

Jeremiah 25:9-11: “Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

Jeremiah 29:1: “Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon."

You are saying that all 12 tribes of Jacob were fully restored and God's Word written on their hearts so that they would never forsake God again? You have a very different view of history than what was recorded.

We are talking about restoration, not captivity. Of course you spiritualize it away instead of a full restoration, and your's is a "come as you are" restoration, still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. You are so stuck in the carnal captivity and being bound by sin, you cannot see the coming Day of the Lord, where even creation will be restored. And it is not 24 hours long. The length is 1,000 years long of a fully restored creation. Not the illusion of a troubled here and now.