So, are they sinners? Why do you refuse to answer this simple question?
Last edited:
More biblical proof that supports Amillennialism
- Thread starter WPM
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
So, are they sinners? Why do you refuse to answer this simple question?
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
We were not discussing Eternal life , but Jn 5 answers your question.
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
We were talking about Immortal body and when we receive it....,
Phill 3
20 But [we are different, because] our citizenship is in heaven. And from there we eagerly await [the coming of] the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself, will [not only] transform [but completely refashion] our earthly bodies so that they will be like His glorious resurrected body.
1cor 15
50 Now I say this, believers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit nor be part of the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable (mortal) inherit the imperishable (immortal). 51 Listen very carefully, I tell you a mystery [a secret truth decreed by God and previously hidden, but now revealed]; we will not all sleep [in death], but we will all be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed], 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at [the sound of] the last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [who believed in Christ] will be raised imperishable, and we will be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed]. 53 For this perishable [part of us] must put on the imperishable [nature], and this mortal [part of us that is capable of dying] must put on immortality [which is freedom from death]. 54 And when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the Scripture will be fulfilled that says, “Death is swallowed up in victory (vanquished forever). 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin [by which it brings death] is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory [as conquerors] through our Lord Jesus Christ.
So, we receive this at his glorious 2nd appearing.
Think again.
Agree
This should prove to you that the 2nd coming occurs after the millennium period. It is not future but relates to Jn 5:24-25
Jesus said in John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
Jesus said in John 17:3: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
1 John 3:24
24 … And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 4:13
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
I John 5:11-13 says, “God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”
Rom 8:14-16
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Keraz
Well-Known Member
- Jun 20, 2018
- 5,263
- 938
- 113
- 82
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- New Zealand
I don't like to constantly repeat myself. Obviously doing that doesn't bother you, as you repeatedly repeat your AMill mantra.
You make no attempt to address the fact of there having passed nearly 6000 years since Adam. Divided into exactly 2000 year tranches.
This truth is just too accurate to be random chance, it has to be Gods doing and He will complete His decreed time for mankind with a final thousand years of an amazing time of His faithful people living how God really intended humans to live.
Revelation 17:12 denotes there will be just a short time, in which the ten kings will retain their authority, before they cede their power to one man, who will become the dictator of the One World Government. Daniel 7:24
Last edited:
Keraz
Well-Known Member
- Jun 20, 2018
- 5,263
- 938
- 113
- 82
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- New Zealand
Isn't it kinda obvious that we who hear the Word and believe in Jesus, are NOT yet immortal?
We are told, without any shadow of doubt; when those worthy will receive their immortal beings. Revelation 20:11-15
AFTER the Millennium reign of King Jesus, when He hands the Kingdom back to the Father and Eternity commences. Revelation 21:1-7
Thinking there will be any change to our mortal bodies before the final Judgment and the Book of Life is opened, is wrong and cannot happen. However, as Isaiah 65:20 says; people will live for much longer during the Millennium. This may be due to a higher percentage of Oxygen in the atmosphere, but mainly, I believe to being disease free, Isaiah 33:24, and under a benign Ruler.
Your 7000 theory is not taught in Scripture. Premils keep changing their dates every time a calendar hits 6000. They will soon run out of dates. Then what? Will they admit they are false prophets? Not likely. Just like they never repent and shut up every time their antichrist dies and a false prediction or red moon appears.
And, oh, the one hour is symbolic but the thousand years cannot be.
Last edited:
You have nothing to support your opinion of Rev 20. Isa 65 refers to the NHNE.
Let us let the Bible speaks for itself!
Isaiah 65:17-21 declares, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.”
The one thing we know for sure is that Scripture does not contradict itself in any way. The way some theologians explain this passage would lead you to believe that this passage is the one exception to this rule in Scripture. Of course, we know it isn’t (or can’t be). This much-debated passage before us must therefore beautifully correlates with other similar Scripture, which informs us that the Coming of Christ is climactic and that the new earth is totally free of the curse. It is essential that we always interpret difficult passages like this with other clearer and simpler passages.
The first thing we see in this reading is the time period in view; the Old Testament prophet explains that he is specifically speaking of the “new heavens and a new earth.” This is indisputable and cannot be a matter for theological debate. Whilst there are challenging parts to this passage, we can be sure of the fact that the detail described will be fulfilled in the “new heavens and a new earth.” In fact, the wording is so explicit in relation to the time-period that it removes any ambiguity or uncertainty for the reader on that front. This is the first absolute we can establish with this reading.
Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture and not imposing a private interpretation on this Old Testament chapter means letting New Testament Scripture locate the “new heavens and a new earth.” Various passages show the removal of the old corrupt heavens and earth at the coming of Christ and their replacement with the new perfect heavens and earth. Jesus teaches in Matthew 24:35-37: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.”
Revelation expressly locates the new earth after the millennial period and not at the beginning. Revelation 21:1-5 tells us: “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”
This is beyond dispute. Any other understanding is contradicting Scripture. Notwithstanding, this doesn’t stop some Bible students forcing this passage into a supposed future millennium in between this current age and the new heavens and a new earth in the age to come. This can only occur if one is to ignore the setting clearly outlined by the Holy Ghost elsewhere in Holy Writ.
The next absolute we know from interpreting Scripture with Scripture is that there is no sin or corruption in the new heavens or on the new earth. There is therefore no death or decay, sickness or rebellion. It is a perfect holy environment that is free of iniquity. 2 Peter 3:13 confirms: “we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” The Bible makes clear that this current earth is purged at the Second Coming of all the repercussions of the fall and perfected for His glory.
Last edited:
Corruption, which is the consequence of sin comes to an end at the second coming. Therefore, death and decay come to an end at the second coming. Perfection arrives with the age to come.
Luke 20:27-33 records: “Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.”
Christ replies in Luke 20:34-36: “The children of this world [Gr. aion or age] marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world [Gr. aion or age], and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”
Let us pause for a moment and consider what is being said here: people marry right up until the second coming, but in the age to come they don’t marry because the saints of God will be adorned with their new glorified eternal bodies. What is more: Christ shows that people die right up until the second coming but in the age to come they don’t die. Why? Because sin, sinners and the wicked are not welcome on the new glorified perfected earth that Christ introduces at the second coming.
The contrast here moves from: ‘marriage’ to ‘no marriage’, ‘death’ to ‘no death’. Marriage disappears! Death disappears! The turning point is the glorious coming of Christ and the resurrection that accompanies it.
Constantly throughout the Word of God we see that “this present evil age” is equated with suffering and pain. The age to come is depicted as an eternal rest and safety. Romans 8:16-18 explains (I will quote the NKJV), “The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time [Gr. Kairos] are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall [Gr. mello or hereafter] be revealed in us.”
There is a constant tension throughout the New Testament in regard to the imperfection of this age and the perfection of the age to come, the temporal nature of our current age and the eternal character of the age to come. Paul is dealing a lot with the imperfection and suffering of this age and this world and is particularly highlighting the fact that this creation is not what God designed it to be. The theme is both consistent and well-defined.
The phrase “this present time” found in this reading closely corresponds with the synonymous expression “this world/age” found throughout the New Testament to describe the here-and-now. It is a saying that is normally used when contrasting the deficiency of this current life to the bliss and glory of the approaching eternal state – “the world / age to come.” In fact, Scripture only knows of two ages – “this age” and the “age to come,” Scripture make no mention of, or allowance for, any imperfect semi-glorious/semi-corrupt transitional age in-between “this present time” or age and the eternal “age to come,” as Premils argue.
In this reading, Paul is simply comparing the testing and trials that God’s people currently endure in this current life, which is plagued with all the consequences of the Fall, and the joy of the eternal state when Christ comes that is totally purged of the curse. The portrayal of this age correlates with Galatians 1:4 that labels “this present time” of “sufferings” as “this present evil age.” Paul speaks of a time when “the children of God” will be “glorified together” at His return. He assures his audience that the difficulties of this life are nothing “to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us” when Christ appears. His whole focus is the glory that will be finally and eternally realized at Christ’s return.
Romans 8:19-23 continues (I will quote it from the NKJV as it is more accurate): “For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God (that is the glorification of fallen creation). For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption [Gr. phthora or decay] into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body (that is the glorification of God elect).”
We live in a world that is burdened and broken. It is fallen because it has been ruined by sin. The Greek word interpreted “vanity” in the KJV is the Greek word mataiotes meaning: 1) what is devoid of truth and appropriateness; 2) perverseness, depravity; 3) frailty, want of vigor. This embodies all consequences of sin on the earth. As a repercussion, it has been judged by God.
There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.
1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption [Gr. phthora or decay] inherit incorruption [Gr. aphthrsia or unending existence]. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”
This passage closely mirrors Romans 8, confirming that the last enemy is demolished at “the last trump.” Corruption finds it end when Christ comes in all His glory. This corroborates what Paul was teaching about “the bondage of corruption” being terminated when the elect are redeemed at Christ’s appearing. No one can deny the correlation between the glorification of the elect and the glorification of the earth. God’s people cannot populate an incorrupt earth. They need their bodies suitably attired in perfection to be able to enjoy that eternal state.
Paul teaches that the dead in Christ will be raised and changed to be immortal when Christ returns at the last trumpet. Interestingly, this Greek word allasso used to describe the glorification of the earth in Hebrews 1:10-12 is also used to describe the glorification of the elect here.
Mortals are not qualified to inherit the new earth, as they are plagued by the blight of corruption – which is expressly forbidden from the new earth. Sinful mortals [Gr. in their corruptible bodies) will not even survive the Lord’s climactic coming never mind enter the glorified earth. They cannot abide the glorious presence of Christ at His appearing. It would be totally impossible for flesh and blood to inhabit such a glorious setting. Anyway, there will be no more curse on the world, as death will be swallowed up in victory. The bondage of corruption will finally be banished.
Keraz
Well-Known Member
- Jun 20, 2018
- 5,263
- 938
- 113
- 82
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- New Zealand
TLDR
The truths of the Prophetic Word will come to pass as Written.
The reference to the new heavens and earth in Isaiah 65:17, does not mean it will come then, it is just quoted as something which will surely happen. To think it does come then, is to believe there will be Death in Eternity.
The truths of the Prophetic Word will come to pass as Written.
The reference to the new heavens and earth in Isaiah 65:17, does not mean it will come then, it is just quoted as something which will surely happen. To think it does come then, is to believe there will be Death in Eternity.
The reader will note your habitual avoidance of the biblical evidence and your promotion of your own extra-biblical speculations.
Last edited:
Keraz
Well-Known Member
- Jun 20, 2018
- 5,263
- 938
- 113
- 82
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- New Zealand
Your avoidance is legendary.
If you want to believe that all of Isaiah 65:18-25 describes Eternity, then your beliefs of a spiritual heaven and the Eternal state, is way different from mine and that of most people.
Readers here with any common sense, will note that AMill is a crock and conflicts with reality.
Truth7t7
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2014
- 10,972
- 3,294
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
I Agree 100%
The poster denies a literal future second coming of Jesus Christ
Truth7t7
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2014
- 10,972
- 3,294
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Isaiah Chapters 11 & 65 Is The Very Same Place, The Eternal Kingdom, In The New Heaven And Earth, Don't Be Deceived By Claims This Represents A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth
Same Wolf & Lamb Together, And Lion Eating Straw Like The Bullock/Ox, In The Eternal Kingdom, In The New Heaven And Earth
(For, Behold, I Create New Heavens And A New Earth)
Isaiah 65:17-18 & 25KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
Isaiah 11:6-7KJV
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
The opposite is the truth. Just read back on any thread where an Amillennialist has engaged with you and one will see how you habitually duck, dodge and run in every discussion. You refuse to address and embrace the many Scriptures that forbid your error. See above.
All you have is unprovable misleading rhetoric.
When does the NHNE arrive in Revelation - at, before or after the millennium?
Last edited:
Truth7t7
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2014
- 10,972
- 3,294
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Isaiah and John explain below the very same eternal "New Jerusalem" where the former things are passed away and not remembered, where there's no more weeping or crying "Exactly The Same Place"
You take the words "Child Die" and bend and twist the symbolic meaning into the literal "False"!
A "child dying 100 years old" is symbolic of no more death, you try desperately to change this symbolic biblical truth to maintain a false teaching that Isaiah 65:17-20 represents a mortal millennial kingdom on this earth in "Deception"!
(Eternal New Jerusalem)
Revelation 21:4KJV
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(Eternal New Jerusalem)
Isaiah 65:17-20KJ
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Keraz
Well-Known Member
- Jun 20, 2018
- 5,263
- 938
- 113
- 82
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- New Zealand
The perfectly clear and plainly stated chapter of Revelation 6, destroys any notions of the Millennium now and shows the New heavens and earth will come AFTER the final thousand years, that commence when Jesus does visibly Return, seen by all. Revelation 1:7
I see no scriptures that 'forbid my supposed error'.
Actually; they are far from parallel scriptures.
Isaiah 65 is describing a physical situation, on earth. Revelation 22 is describing a Spiritual, Eternal, heavenly concept.
There is no mention of animals at all in Revelation 21 to 22. Spiritual wolves and oxen in Eternity?
You are the only one that has the truth? Yea right! Quite the opposite. You do not even have Scripture to support your claims.
Last edited:
There you go again. A perfect case-in-point. You totally ducked around my question.
When does the NHNE arrive in Revelation - at, before or after the millennium?
Yes they are.
Isaiah 65 is describing a physical situation, on earth. Revelation 22 is describing a Spiritual, Eternal, heavenly concept.
There is no mention of animals at all in Revelation 21 to 22. Spiritual wolves and oxen in Eternity?
And? LOL. There is only one NHNE just like there is only one "last days." You are always seeing double to support your error. 2+2=4, not 22.
Let us look again at the eternal perfect picture that is portrayed by the prophet in Isaiah 65:17-19: “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.”
If there is death there will be "weeping" and "crying." Right? Or are these myriads of millennial phonies so stiff-necked that they lose the ability to cry?
This is pretty water-tight. Crying is terminated. Tears are over. This correlates with Revelation 21:1-4. The wording of this passage also totally negates the possibility of the reintroduction of death, disease and funerals to the new earth as these would obviously reintroduce “the voice of weeping” and “the voice of crying.” From our reading we know that cannot be. Up until here this description closely correlates with the depiction of the new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21-22.
Revelation 21:1-4 says, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband … And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”
This is speaking of the same event. Isaiah 65 arrives at the end of the millennium, not the beginning as you claim.
Similar threads
