More biblical proof that supports Amillennialism

[The Light]

There won't be a Millennium on this earth after the Lords return

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The son of man is revealed at the 6th seal, BEFORE the wrath of God begins.

 

[rwb]

Dan 2 and Dan 7 indicate God's Kingdom is established at the coming of the Son of Man. All of NT eschatology is based on that idea. Your denials notwithstanding. I recommend that anybody who questions this simply read the passages, and compare with NT statements of the same.

Christ has come, just as the Old Covenant Prophets foretold He would. Since He has already come, we now look for Him to appear the second time without sin unto salvation. For the life of me I cannot fathom why millennialists continue to look for the coming of Christ the Old Testament Prophets foretold! Since their prophesy of His coming has come! Millennialists attempt to force His second coming to be His first coming and attach it to this imagined ONE THOUSAND years of TIME on this earth. The insanity of this doctrine would be laughable if it were not deceiving so many!

 

[WPM]

The son of man is revealed at the 6th seal, BEFORE the wrath of God begins.

That is the end of the world. It is the end of one of several recaps.

 

[The Light]

That is the end of the world. It is the end of one of several recaps

That is the end of the world. It is the end of one of several recaps.

No sir. It is the end of the age, BEFORE the 7th seal and the wrath of God begins.

Why do so many ignore the fact that the wrath of God cannot begin before the 7th seal is opened. Therefore the events of the 6th seal are not the events of the 7th trumpet.

Tribulation and wrath are not the same. Tribulation ends at the 6th seal with the coming of Jesus for a harvest which is the great multitude in Revelation 7. Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened and Jesus returns again at the end of wrath.

 

[WPM]

No sir. It is the end of the age, BEFORE the 7th seal and the wrath of God begins.

Why do so many ignore the fact that the wrath of God cannot begin before the 7th seal is opened. Therefore the events of the 6th seal are not the events of the 7th trumpet.

Tribulation and wrath are not the same. Tribulation ends at the 6th seal with the coming of Jesus for a harvest which is the great multitude in Revelation 7. Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened and Jesus returns again at the end of wrath.

The 6th seal is the wrath of God. Read the text. It totally demolishes the Premillennial scheme. It shows the conflagration and the destruction of all the wicked. This relays the Amil position. Let us look at the text in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

This is the time of God's final wrath upon the earth. The wicked are so afraid of their impending doom that they want the mountains and rocks to fall on them. Think about this: being crushed by mountains and rocks appeals more to them than facing God's wrath. No wicked will survive this.

Once again, this text finishes with a rhetorical question. The obvious answer (to those who do not have their own theological agenda) is that no one will survive this climatic event.

Revelation 6:12-17 depicts the conflagration that accompanies the return of Christ. It sees the regeneration of this earth and the destruction of all the wicked. This agrees with multiple Scripture.

· The sun became black
· The moon became as blood
· The stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
· The heaven departs like a scroll
· Every mountain and island are moved out of their places

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally transformed. This occurs at the climactic return of Christ.

Scripture shows Jesus one and only coming to be totally climactic. When Jesus comes that is it - caught up or caught on, saved or lost, eternal bliss or eternal torment. It is the end. No one survives (see above).

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

“The times of refreshing” and “the restitution of all things” expressly coincide with the Lord’s appearing, thus proving the all-consummating nature of that glorious event.

I LOVE THIS! Thanks for the fresh breeze midst the pre and post sewerage mill tornados all around.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The destruction of our current earth coincides with the fiery judgment of the wicked at the Lord’s return.

AMEN
God's blessing upon His Word

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Jesus does this at Armageddon. As described as well in Matthew 25:31-33
Only righteous, faithful people will go with Him into the Millennium.

Absolutely, the exact same thing WPM said. Do you differ with WPM or with yourself? Yourself it seems to me...

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

As you've been told many times, Premils do not argue for an earth after Christ's Coming that is "sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted." This is clearly an exaggerated misrepresentation designed to enhance your own argument for Amil.

On the contrary, Premils like myself argue for an earth after Christ's Coming in which the "glory of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the sea." In other words, it is a time, during a continuing mortal human era, in which Abraham's promises can be fulfilled, despite the fact people are still prone to sin.

Exasperating self-contradiction UNBELIEVABLE! You Randy Kluth: <Premils do not argue for an earth after Christ's Coming that is "sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted.">: versus You Randy Kluth: <Premils like myself argue for an earth after Christ's Coming in which... it is a time, during a continuing mortal human era... despite the fact people are still prone to sin.>

 

[WPM]

Exasperating self-contradiction UNBELIEVABLE! You Randy Kluth: <Premils do not argue for an earth after Christ's Coming that is "sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted.">: versus You Randy Kluth: <Premils like myself argue for an earth after Christ's Coming in which... it is a time, during a continuing mortal human era... despite the fact people are still prone to sin.>

Exactly bro! Well said! Premils do this on every biblical issue. Their whole doctrine is built upon sand.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

In your view, this is talking about people with mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God.

No! This is YOUR <spiritual israel's view... talking about people with mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God>. WPM never said such thing or made such implication, but on the contrary gave only SCRIPTURE saying and or implying what Paul says, the dead shall rise and we who are alive at his Coming SHALL BE CHANGED IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE.
In other words, YOU <spiritual israel> is talking UNTRUTH about people, the Amillennials like WPM.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Exasperating self-contradiction UNBELIEVABLE! You Randy Kluth: <Premils do not argue for an earth after Christ's Coming that is "sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted.">: versus You Randy Kluth: <Premils like myself argue for an earth after Christ's Coming in which... it is a time, during a continuing mortal human era... despite the fact people are still prone to sin.>

Gerhard, you may not have been in on the many conversations I've had about this, but I've explained it repeatedly. It may sound like a contradiction to you, but it is no contradiction. Sinful humanity lives in the present age, and will still live in the future Millennial Age, in my eschatology. The *big difference* is that *Satan will be bound* in the future Millennial Age, represented by the *rule of the glorified saints, together with the glorified Christ.*

That is, excessive sin will be restrained in the future age, allowing God's promises to Abraham to be fulfilled. In the present age, God's process of completing Abraham's promises has been resisted and opposed, although all of the preparatory work is being completed. The Gospel has gone throughout the earth, and has planted Christian Civilization in the earth.

In the coming age, however, resistance to this process will be ended, and its completion will be made possible. Think about this. A very flawed Christian Kingdom was built with the Byzantine Empire, which lasted a thousand years! With the imprisonment of Satan, what kind of Christian Civilization can be built upon the earth with his impediments removed?

Even with sin still in mankind, God is able, through grace, to perpetuate His plans with humanity. And He must fulfil His promises with mortal humanity, in my view. I trust this clears up your misconception of my view?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Ok. As I suspected, you have nothing of biblical worth. You make these sweeping claims but fail to provide the reader with hard evidence. That is the frustrating thing with debating with Premils - they don't have the biblical support to corroborate their far-fetched ideas. That is why Premil should be rejected.

Matthew 19.28 does not provide support for your claims. In fact, it reinforces Amil. When Jesus comes in His glory, Jesus said, in Matthew 19:28, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

This fits in with countless passages in Holy Writ that demonstrate that judgment day is an event that occurs on the last day, where the righteous are rewarded and the wicked are banished to the lake of fire. We do not need to import anything else into these. For you to do otherwise is to depict your millennium as one ongoing judgment of natural Israel. This is the opposite to classic Premil that elevates Israel to a favor place in their millennium and shows them restoring their whole old covenant apparatus in the presence of Jesus.

This passage locates “the regeneration” at the second coming “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” Here, they will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I don’t believe this is talking about twelve literal stone judgment seats; it is simply referring to the authority that will be exercised by the redeemed when He appears. Unbelieving Israel will be judged by the redeemed saints of all nations – they are “the regeneration” that join Him “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory” to judge the nations. Israel is shown to be judged at the second coming. Like every other Christ-rejecting nation, they will be cast into the lake of fire. Only those that love Christ will be saved. This is therefore an allusion to the general judgment which occurs at Christ's coming.

The elect will judge the Christ-rejecting nations and the twelve tribes of Israel that have rejected Christ since His earthly ministry. This passage is simply identifying the group of people that will “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” – namely “ye which have followed me, in the regeneration.” This regeneration refers to those who have been changed into Christ's image. This is evidently talking about the elect of all time. It is the elect (both Jew and Gentile) that will judge Christ-rejecting Israel. A future earthly millennial kingdom is not remotely mentioned in this reading.

Barnes in his commentary says re the "regeneration," “the word also means any great change, or a restoration of things to a former state or to a better state. In this sense it is probably used here. It refers to that great revolution-that restoration of order in the universe-that universal new birth which will occur when the dead shall rise, and all human things shall be changed, and a new order of things shall start up out of the ruins of the old, when the Son of man shall come to judgment. The passage, then, should be read, "Ye which have followed me shall, as a reward in the great day of the resurrection of the dead, and of forming the new and eternal order of things-the day of judgment, the regeneration-be signally honored and blessed.”

Jesus said, in Luke 22:29-30: “I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

These just confirm that the elect are going to one day judge Israel. You cannot import anything further into these - it simply isn't there.

It is at this great concluding event that both the righteous and the wicked will be raised to face the great final judgment. Notwithstanding, there are two aspects to the one all-consummating resurrection day.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:41-42, “The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”

The righteous Old Testament Gentile saint – the queen of the south – is raised at the same time as the wicked Pharisees of Christ’s day to stand before the same judgment seat of Christ. Remember the queen of the south and Nineveh are presented as Old Testament Gentile saints that will “rise up in the judgment with” the wicked unbelieving Jews of Christ’s day.

There is no prolonged parenthesis period separating the resurrection of the wicked dead and the resurrection of the righteous dead. They both “rise up” at the same time. The Old Testament Gentile city of Nineveh is shown to “rise up in the judgment with” (or meta) the religious Jewish world of Christ’s day and “condemn it.”

The 'like'-button is far too weak to show how recommendable your whole handling of this subject has been. Again, MAY GOD BLESS YOU. Thank you very, very much!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Christ has come, just as the Old Covenant Prophets foretold He would. Since He has already come, we now look for Him to appear the second time without sin unto salvation. For the life of me I cannot fathom why millennialists continue to look for the coming of Christ the Old Testament Prophets foretold! Since their prophesy of His coming has come! Millennialists attempt to force His second coming to be His first coming and attach it to this imagined ONE THOUSAND years of TIME on this earth. The insanity of this doctrine would be laughable if it were not deceiving so many!

It's not insane. You just need to be more reasonable in dealing with other viewpoints.

In your system the 2 Comings of Christ are viewed differently. You annul the Jewish view of the 1st Coming and think Premils perpetuate the Jewish view in their expectation of the 2nd Coming. I understand that. But no, it's not "insane."

Premils like myself do embrace a proper Jewish view of both the 1st and 2nd Comings. The believing Jews ultimately accepted the right expectation of Jesus' 1st Coming, but did not deny the future salvation of Israel, both politically and spiritually. And I would add to this that although the original Church may not have fully appreciated the expansion of the Gospel ministry into many nations, beyond Israel, that certainly has been the case. Like Israel, many nations have become virtual Christian theocracies!

For me as a Premil, the 2nd Coming will be the completion of this process. The nations that have been "seeded" as Christian nations, or "called" nations, will be restored to their original calling. Both Israel and Christian nations, which have fallen, will be restored and properly preserved as such for a thousand years.

The 2nd Coming will see the binding of Satan, which will enable this promise to be completed. Nothing about this is "insane." It is the fulfillment of God's word, not reading back into the 1st Coming the completion of all God's promises, nor reading into the present age the same.

The current age is seeing, as predicted, a colossal religious failure. Christ comes back to save us, to finish His word. This is a completely reasonable proposal, based on the same Scriptures you use to propagate your own views. Calling other Christians' views, as such, "insane" does nothing to further understanding between the different schools.

 

[WPM]

No! This is YOUR <spiritual israel's view... talking about people with mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God>. WPM never said such thing or made such implication, but on the contrary gave only SCRIPTURE saying and or implying what Paul says, the dead shall rise and we who are alive at his Coming SHALL BE CHANGED IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE.
In other words, YOU <spiritual israel> is talking UNTRUTH about people, the Amillennials like WPM.

Hey. He is on our side. He is a solid Amil. I think you are misunderstanding his view. He believes what we do!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Just now ·
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The key to Agreement is CHRIST IN SCRIPTURE TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT

 

[WPM]

The 'like'-button is far too weak to show how recommendable your whole handling of this subject has been. Again, MAY GOD BLESS YOU. Thank you very, very much!

Awwwh! I appreciate your encouragement. Thanks! Keep posting here. Truth is precious. It is uplifting. It is refreshing. It is inspiring. It is life-changing.

 

[Randy Kluth]

He will reign forever, not for 1000 years as you claim. This refutes your Premil claims.

I don't see reigning for a 1000 years over mortal humanity as contradictory to an eternal reign. There is, in my view, a difference between ruling over subjects susceptible to rebellion and ruling over subjects as Creator and Lord, establishing a proper relationship between God and immortal servants.

The kind of "rule" described in the Messianic Kingdom is depicted as a rule over a mortal world, in which there is still resistance to God's rule. But well after all rebellion has been put down, God will still rule in a completely different sense, as God rules over His creation.

"Rule" is defined by its context. The context of the Messianic Kingdom involves mortal humanity, in which sin must be suppressed and controlled. The context of God's eternal rule in His eternal Kingdom involves does not require that sin and rebellion continue to exist.

God will always "rule" in His eternal Kingdom, whether there is resistance or not. But the kind of rule such that "pots are broken" suggests rule over sinful mankind is involved. And this is the context of God's "rule" in the Millennial Age, I believe...

Rev 2.27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

 

[WPM]

I don't see reigning for a 1000 years over mortal humanity as contradictory to an eternal reign. There is, in my view, a difference between ruling over subjects susceptible to rebellion and ruling over subjects as Creator and Lord, establishing a proper relationship between God and immortal servants.

The kind of "rule" described in the Messianic Kingdom is depicted as a rule over a mortal world, in which there is still resistance to God's rule. But well after all rebellion has been put down, God will still rule in a completely different sense, as God rules over His creation.

"Rule" is defined by its context. The context of the Messianic Kingdom involves mortal humanity, in which sin must be suppressed and controlled. The context of God's eternal rule in His eternal Kingdom involves does not require that sin and rebellion continue to exist.

God will always "rule" in His eternal Kingdom, whether there is resistance or not. But the kind of rule such that "pots are broken" suggests rule over sinful mankind is involved. And this is the context of God's "rule" in the Millennial Age, I believe...

Rev 2.27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

(1) There is a big difference between time and eternity, reigning for 1000 years and forever. Sorry you cannot see that.
(2) The Messiah has already come 2000 years ago. He has already introduced His kingdom. Sad that you know nothing experientially and intellectually of this. Many here have already entered it. He is already ruling with all authority in heaven and earth over mortal man. There is nothing that is not under His feet. He is king over all creation! He opens and no man closes. He closes and no man opens! Hello! He is the lion (king) of the tribe of Judah.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Where you have been confused for years has been on the meaning of the binding. It is spiritual and not literal. It refers to the spiritual restraint placed on Satan since the First Advent through the ministry of Jesus. The Gentiles that were in darkness have now been enlightened by the Gospel. That is it!

I'm not "confused" about this--we just disagree. I fully understand your pov--the success and advance of the Gospel was made possible by the "binding of Satan," as you see it.

I, on the other hand, acknowledge the victory of Christ in making possible the Gospel success in the world. People are saved because Jesus saved us at the cross.

But in my view this is only the 1st step in the process. The 2nd Coming will bind Satan so that not only will present saints obtain their goal, but the world will also see prophetic fulfillment that is as yet impossible in the present age.

Repeated Scripture uses binding in a figurative sense. The wicked are depicted as being in chains and in a prison before salvation. We all know that that is not literal. Also, repeated scripture shows the binding of Satan and his minions since the earthly ministry of Christ. So, when we get into the most symbolic book in the Bible, it is not difficult to get your head around the spiritual binding of Satan in order to enlighten the Gentiles since the resurrection – the first resurrection.

The strongman was bound 2000 years ago according to Jesus. He invaded the devil’s house, chained him and took a spoil. We are part of that spoil. This is figurative language.

We've discussed the "strong man," which in my view is different from the "binding of Satan" in Rev 20. The binding of a strong man was applied to demon exorcism. The thought is that any time God wishes to force an issue, resistance must be dealt with. Though the Kingdom of God does advance for the purpose of Salvation in the present age, I do not see Satan as "bound" in the sense of an "imprisonment."

How can you go here? Your conflict is plainly with Scripture. The Holy Ghost plainly relates Zechariah 12:10 to the cross in John 19:30-37. That is not the case with Rev 1:7. These are two different events separated by 2,000 years. It cannot relate to both!

Zech 12 relates to the 2nd Coming. We see that in Rev 1.7. I don't see them as 2 different events.