More biblical proof that supports Amillennialism

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Randy Kluth

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Your claim is "False"

Will you deny the believers are translated onto God's kingdom upon this earth, your views are on denial of scripture seen below

Romans 14:17KJV
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Colossians 1:13-14KJV
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Yes, Col 1.13-14 is talking about transferring membership from this world to Christ's coming Kingdom. We agree on that. But we do not agree that the Kingdom has already arrived. Christ is coming back to establish his Kingdom on earth, in my view.

Eph 3.6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

We are presently members of Christ's body, through the Holy Spirit, who has given us new birth. But we are also only heirs of the Kingdom presently, and have yet to obtain our inheritance, kept for us in heaven by Christ.

1 Pet 1.4 This inheritance is kept in heaven for you.

Phil 3.20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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WPM

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I believe Christ is king, but his Kingdom is not yet established on the earth, because Satan is the prince of this world, and the masses follow him. Your sense of God's Kingdom now looks pretty pathetic, with Antichrists everywhere in the world, and civilization moving away from true religion. That isn't the Kingdom that is coming.

You spend a lot of time arguing that Christ is king. He is not only king--he is divine. But that argument doesn't touch the real issue, which is that you believe Christ's Kingdom has already come to earth, and I don't believe so.

That is NOT what you said. You said:

"The Kingdom did make an impact in the time of Christ, simply because Christ was representative of the Kingdom as its future King."
 

WPM

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I believe Christ is king, but his Kingdom is not yet established on the earth, because Satan is the prince of this world, and the masses follow him. Your sense of God's Kingdom now looks pretty pathetic, with Antichrists everywhere in the world, and civilization moving away from true religion. That isn't the Kingdom that is coming.

You spend a lot of time arguing that Christ is king. He is not only king--he is divine. But that argument doesn't touch the real issue, which is that you believe Christ's Kingdom has already come to earth, and I don't believe so.

The Messianic kingdom is here now. Can I remind you that the Messiah came as king with His kingdom a long time ago? Just because you reject that does not in any way negate it. Your theology causes you to dismiss it. Like the Pharisees, you fail to see the eschatological nature of His First Advent and the kingdom of God. That is the very reason why the Pharisees nailed Him to a tree. When Christ appeared at His first advent, the Jews imagined He would reinstate the now defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation, restoring their ancient borders. The Jewish expectation was a literal visible territorial kingdom of which the Messiah the King would rule over. They believed He would immediately destroy every enemy that withstood the house of Israel and usher in a period of physical and spiritual bliss for Israel.

When someone gets saved they enter into the kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises spiritual control. This kingship refers to the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness are pre-eminent.

Jesus said in Luke 17:21: “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”

The kingdom of God exists wherever the king – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His spiritual jurisdiction. It is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His divine kingship, dominion and intimate rule. It relates to all those who belong to His body. His kingdom embodies all those who possess the indwelling Holy Spirit – those who are real believers. Christ’s kingdom is therefore found wherever there are citizens of that kingdom.

The Lord revealed in this passage that the kingdom of God – His kingdom – was not a literal earthly domain neither could it be viewed like other kingdoms with their outward splendor, impressive power and magnitude. It is, rather, a spiritual kingdom, which can only be spiritually entered.

Jesus said in John 18:36, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

Christ couldn’t have made it clearer. This expectation – of a literal visible territorial political kingdom – was wrong. It exposed the ignorance which controlled the Jews. They had a defective perception of the nature of God’s kingdom and the manner in which it would appear.

The kingdom of God that Christ introduced was of a spiritual nature. This absolutely confounded the Pharisees and their misguided earthly carnal concept of the Messianic kingdom.

Colossians 1:18 says, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church.”

That means if you have given Christ kingship of your life then you are in the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God is in you!

Have you invited king Jesus into your heart? Then the kingdom of God is within you.

Jesus said in Matthew 6:33:seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”

As an American citizen you owe your allegiance to the American flag. But there is a higher allegiance. That is to Christ, because He is your King. The kingdom of God overrides every earthly kingdom. You are a Christian 1st, and an American 2nd.

When someone gets saved they enter into the kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises spiritual control. This kingship refers to the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness are pre-eminent.

In John 3:3 Jesus declared: Except a man be born again (or born from above), he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

We experience the kingdom of God through supernatural birth from above whereby we are supernaturally changed from a child of darkness to a child of God. Be assured, we cannot change ourselves. It must be a new birth.

Jesus continues in John 3:5, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

One can only “see” and “enter” the kingdom of God by grace through faith. None of us can earn it. None of us deserve it. Before you pat yourself on the back, remember even faith is a gift from God.
 

WPM

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No, the whole earth will have a lot of Sodoms that will be destroyed. That is, many cities will likely fall. But the earth itself will remain intact, as even the Scriptures say.

More twisting of the biblical text to support your faulty teaching. Read 2 Peter 3. It is the whole earth and the works that are therein that are dissolved. You have never had an answer to this as it forbids your beliefs.

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

Christ plainly and purposefully advanced these two days, where the righteous were graciously rescued just prior to the full annihilation of the wicked, in order to vividly portray the nature and scope of the day of His wrath at the second coming. He deliberates and graphically connected the happenings of both these former days of judgment to the day of His return. Jesus succinctly said, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).

After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then describes a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed. Whilst the Lord presents the rebellion and debauchery that preceded both of these judgments as a sign of how things will exist prior to the day of His all-consummating appearing, the main focus of His teaching relates to the focus and scale of the wrath which did fall on these two solemn days of destruction and how they accurately reflect what will happen at the second coming. Both individually and jointly, they supply us with a stunning insight into the nature of the actual day that Christ’s returns and to the days that precede His glorious second coming. In their substance and importance these two Old Testament days are distinct and unique. And whilst the nature of the judgment and geographical extent of both appreciably varies, brought-together, they graphically represent (1) the type of catastrophe coming, and (2) the scale of the destruction at the end. Scripture nowhere separates in time the gathering of the Lord's people to Himself with the destruction of the wicked.
 
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Randy Kluth

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That is NOT what you said. You said:
Yes, that's what I said. You have to acknowledge the semantics of this argument. Jesus is a king in the same way he is God. But this is different from saying he has been crowned king *on earth* in the promised "Kingdom of God."

You say that has already happened. I say it has not.

Let's not get too tangled up on the language. We know we see this differently. My original argument was that you were exaggerating, it seems, how Premils see the Millennial Age. You indicated we see it as "blighted" and corrupt. And although I acknowledge that we see this Age as mortal and sinful, I do see it as having human rebellion against God under better control than we now see it.

If you view the present age as a realized Messianic Kingdom, then you see the "Millennium" as more "blighted" than Premils do! Similar to Full Preterists you see the King as having already arrived, despite the fact the Kingdom of God has not yet defeated all its enemies and established itself upon the earth.
 
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Randy Kluth

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The Messianic kingdom is here now. Can I remind you that the Messiah came as king with His kingdom a long time ago? Just because you reject that does not in any way negate it. Your theology causes you to dismiss it. Like the Pharisees, you fail to see the eschatological nature of His First Advent and the kingdom of God.
In no way am I like the Pharisees! They expected Jesus to defeat the Romans and not be so pacifistic. And they didn't like him condemning them for their religious superficiality.

In no way is my religion superficial, and I do not agree with them that Jesus did not come as Messiah the 1st time, to be pacifistic, to die on the cross for sin, and to proclaim *membership* in his future Kingdom. You completely misrepresent me.

Since you misrepresent me so badly, and your arguments are predicated on this misrepresentation, I have no interest in pursuing your line of reasoning.
 

WPM

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Yes, that's what I said. You have to acknowledge the semantics of this argument. Jesus is a king in the same way he is God. But this is different from saying he has been crowned king *on earth* in the promised "Kingdom of God."

You say that has already happened. I say it has not.

Let's not get too tangled up on the language. We know we see this differently. My original argument was that you were exaggerating, it seems, how Premils see the Millennial Age. You indicated we see it as "blighted" and corrupt. And although I acknowledge that we see this Age as mortal and sinful, I do see it as having human rebellion against God under better control than we now see it.

Like Pretribbers, you have Jesus as a king in waiting.

Where in Revelation 20 does it teach Jesus will be "crowned king *on earth* in the promised "Kingdom of God."
Where in Revelation 20 does it teach "human rebellion against God" will be "under better control than we now see it"?

If you view the present age as a realized Messianic Kingdom, then you see the "Millennium" as more "blighted" than Premils do! Similar to Full Preterists you see the King as having already arrived, despite the fact the Kingdom of God has not yet defeated all its enemies and established itself upon the earth.

Of course, this current millennium is sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted. Read Revelation 20 and multiple passages in Scripture. Have a look around you. Satan will have his final throw before Jesus comes, the mystery of iniquity will be unrestrained, then Jesus comes and introduces the NHNE. It is your depiction that is a fallacy. The supposed Edenic bliss you portray is fake news.
 

WPM

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In no way am I like the Pharisees! They expected Jesus to defeat the Romans and not be so pacifistic. And they didn't like him condemning them for their religious superficiality.

In no way is my religion superficial, and I do not agree with them that Jesus did not come as Messiah the 1st time, to be pacifistic, to die on the cross for sin, and to proclaim *membership* in his future Kingdom. You completely misrepresent me.

Since you misrepresent me so badly, and your arguments are predicated on this misrepresentation, I have no interest in pursuing your line of reasoning.

Once again you avoided every single text and argument I presented and defaulted to your usual personal opinions. This is why it is impossible to reason with you and this is why you run when confronted with the sacred text. This exposes your whole thesis. The reader will note who has Scripture on their side and who is presenting theological theories.
 

Randy Kluth

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Like Pretribbers, you have Jesus as a king in waiting.
I agree with Pretribbers we have Jesus as a king in waiting, yes. I am not, however, a Pretribber.
Where in Revelation 20 does it teach Jesus will be "crowned king *on earth* in the promised "Kingdom of God."
Rev 12.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."

As I said, Jesus is presently King in heaven. So I believe he already has that crown, indicating he is both God and Lord. But in his heavenly rule, he continues to restrain his rule on earth, giving allowance for satanic rule until that time is up. Then he will pull out his scepter and establish his Kingdom on the earth. I will quote it once again:

Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”


This passage indicates that even though Jesus is King in heaven, he will not establish his Kingdom *on earth* until the seventh angel has sounded his trumpet. And that takes place at the end of the present age. It can't be more explicit.

Where in Revelation 20 does it teach "human rebellion against God" will be "under better control than we now see it"?
Rev 20 declares a "first resurrection" takes place, which leaves the rest of the world in its current mortal, sinful state. It doesn't' need to be stated that sin is a rebellion against God and is entrenched in man's spiritual DNA. Even though Christ and his glorified saints rule over the earth during the Millennium, that doesn't mean sin doesn't continue to exist--it is merely restrained.

And in fact, if glorified Christians "rules" over the earth, the indication is that there are rebellious people to be ruled over, or restrained. Such things do not need to be pointed out, since they are already assumed. On the contrary, if something different is to be supposed, then that should be pointed out. And it isn't.
Of course, this current millennium is sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted. Read Revelation 20 and multiple passages in Scripture. Have a look around you. Satan will have his final throw before Jesus comes, the mystery of iniquity will be unrestrained, then Jesus comes and introduces the NHNE. It is your depiction that is a fallacy. The supposed Edenic bliss you portray is fake news.
If you identify the current age as "the Kingdom of God" and "goat-infested," then why do you view the Premil version of the Millennium "the Kingdom of God" and "goat-infested," as if that is some sort of contradiction? In fact, however, Premills like myself do see a difference between the impact of God's Kingdom in the present age and the realization of God's Kingdom in the coming age.

One is indeed "goat-infested" now, whereas in the Millennial Age, sin will be restrained and ruled over by glorified Christianity. Satan will be bound.
 

Randy Kluth

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Once again you avoided every single text and argument I presented and defaulted to your usual personal opinions. This is why it is impossible to reason with you and this is why you run when confronted with the sacred text. This exposes your whole thesis. The reader will note who has Scripture on their side and who is presenting theological theories.
My point was designed to debase your misrepresentation of my position. I in no way align with the Pharisees and their teachings.
 

WPM

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I agree with Pretribbers we have Jesus as a king in waiting, yes. I am not, however, a Pretribber.

Rev 12.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."

As I said, Jesus is presently King in heaven. So I believe he already has that crown, indicating he is both God and Lord. But in his heavenly rule, he continues to restrain his rule on earth, giving allowance for satanic rule until that time is up. Then he will pull out his scepter and establish his Kingdom on the earth. I will quote it once again:

Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”


This passage indicates that even though Jesus is King in heaven, he will not establish his Kingdom *on earth* until the seventh angel has sounded his trumpet. And that takes place at the end of the present age. It can't be more explicit.

Rev 12 tells us that Jesus began His reign after the man-child Jesus was caught up to heaven after every enemy was defeated through and after the cross.

Revelation 12:5 tells us: And she (true Israel) brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”

Christ is reigning since the resurrection. Jesus is still reigning in these last days (the intra-Advent period) and putting all enemies under His feet. All the result of the fall and every enemy of righteousness will be finally eliminated at Christ’s coming. Men can still submit to His rule, however, when He returns with a rod of iron that is the end. The Holy Ghost says this is happening now. It relates to the present millennial period. Premil seems to have a totally disregard for the tenses. Obviously, this is because time after time they expose your error. I go with Scripture.

Jesus testifies in Revelation 3:21: To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down (aorist active indicative) with my Father in his throne.”

Here you have it! This is a current ongoing reality. There is no getting away from this. From this passage we explicitly see:

(1) The battle was Calvary
(2) The outcome was victory,
(3) His reign is current,
(4) The location is heaven.

(5) The dead in Christ share in Christ current reign over His enemies.

Christ’s current heavenly reign over His enemies is inextricably linked to the decisive victory He secured through His life, death and glorious resurrection. Our Savior had to overcome. He had to defeat every enemy of righteousness. He had to overcome that which had overcome man -namely sin, Satan, hell and the grave. Christ’s present reign is therefore (1) to perfectly fulfil Scripture, and (2) to enforce the complete victory that was wrought.

We find this truth repeated in Revelation 5:1-6, where we learn, “And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain.”

The word “prevailed” here is nikao meaning to conquer, overcome, prevail, or to get the victory. This is exactly what “the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David” did. This is an existing reality. We are not waiting for some future age for the son of David to prevail; He already victoriously secured a victory over every enemy by His resurrection and has now assumed the throne of David reigning over the Israel of God.

The priest has already experienced His coronation after the ascension. He now sits “on the throne” as the Messianic priest/kingship.

It was through the tribe of Judah that the Israelite royal linage functioned. It was here that the kingship or leadership was given (Genesis 49:9-10). Judah went by the standard of a lion. Jesus Christ was born through the linage of Judah (Matthew 1:1-2, Hebrews 7:14) and it is He that has the strength/power to deal with the enemies of His people. The connotation involved in the wording and symbolism contained in Revelation 5:5 in regard to “the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David” confirms Christ’s present Davidic kingship or rulership.

Rev 20 declares a "first resurrection" takes place, which leaves the rest of the world in its current mortal, sinful state. It doesn't' need to be stated that sin is a rebellion against God and is entrenched in man's spiritual DNA. Even though Christ and his glorified saints rule over the earth during the Millennium, that doesn't mean sin doesn't continue to exist--it is merely restrained.

And in fact, if glorified Christians "rules" over the earth, the indication is that there are rebellious people to be ruled over, or restrained. Such things do not need to be pointed out, since they are already assumed. On the contrary, if something different is to be supposed, then that should be pointed out. And it isn't.

There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Since this, Revelation 20 describes the defeat and binding (or curtailment) of Satan for the expressed purpose of the Gospel invading the nations and removing the deception that blinded the Gentiles before Christ's first resurrection. When Satan was bound through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

If you identify the current age as "the Kingdom of God" and "goat-infested," then why do you view the Premil version of the Millennium "the Kingdom of God" and "goat-infested," as if that is some sort of contradiction? In fact, however, Premills like myself do see a difference between the impact of God's Kingdom in the present age and the realization of God's Kingdom in the coming age.

One is indeed "goat-infested" now, whereas in the Millennial Age, sin will be restrained and ruled over by glorified Christianity. Satan will be bound.

Hello! It is all the imaginary nonsense Premils attribute to Rev 20 that Amils expose. That is what I am hitting. Revelation 20 cuts across your perfect pristine Edenic environment. This is an illusion. Your millennium is saturated with billions of phonies who reveal their hand when Satan appears. The enemy overruns your millennium with his followers - as the sand of the sea.
  • Where in the OT does it say "that the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"?
  • Where in the OT does it say "newly-converted Christians" are left "in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago" in some future millennium?
  • Where in Revelation 20 does it teach Jesus will be "crowned king *on earth* in the promised Kingdom of God."
  • Where in Revelation 20 does it teach "human rebellion against God" will be "under better control than we now see it"?
This is all fantasy, and you know it. At Truth says: it is a fairy tale. It will indeed never happen.
 

Truth7t7

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Yes, Col 1.13-14 is talking about transferring membership from this world to Christ's coming Kingdom.
The verse below is talking "Past Tense" (HATH) not future tense (WILL)

(Hath Translated) its a past and present reality, the false claims are never ending

Colossians 1:13-14KJV
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
 

Randy Kluth

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The verse below is talking "Past Tense" (HATH) not future tense (WILL)

(Hath Translated) its a past and present reality, the false claims are never ending

Colossians 1:13-14KJV
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Yes, it's past tense. Our *membership* has been transferred from this world to the Kingdom of God, which is *future.* To be "translated into the Kingdom" is shorthand for "transferred membership."

I gave you the pertinent verses showing this. We are not yet literally in that Kingdom as if it has come to earth.

1 Pet 1.4 This inheritance is kept in heaven for you.

Phil 3.20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.


We are only "in that Kingdom" in the sense that our stake in the heavenly Kingdom is real and already functioning to some degree. It just has not yet been established on earth such that we can not yet have entered into it as an earthly inheritance.
 

Randy Kluth

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Rev 12 tells us that Jesus began His reign after the man-child Jesus was caught up to heaven after every enemy was defeated through and after the cross.

Revelation 12:5 tells us: And she (true Israel) brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
We obviously read it differently. Amils think this refers to the Ascension, and Premils like myself believe this refers to a future time when Christ will "rule." Again, you rule over something that is potentially rebellious--otherwise, you don't need to rule.

But you think Christ is already ruling when Satan is clearly running amok, persecuting the saints, and setting the world on fire, so to speak. That would be a pretty weak "rule" if it was thought that God's Kingdom was already here on the earth. But I don't believe it is. Christ rules now, but not in the sense of an earthly Kingdom. Christ is restraining his judgment for the sake of those who are being saved. He is being patient.
Christ is reigning since the resurrection. Jesus is still reigning in these last days (the intra-Advent period) and putting all enemies under His feet. All the result of the fall and every enemy of righteousness will be finally eliminated at Christ’s coming. Men can still submit to His rule, however, when He returns with a rod of iron that is the end. The Holy Ghost says this is happening now. It relates to the present millennial period. Premil seems to have a totally disregard for the tenses. Obviously, this is because time after time they expose your error. I go with Scripture.
Tenses have to be understood in context. For example, prolepses speak of things yet to take place as if they are being viewed already done. Putting everything under Christ, including death, has obviously not yet taken place since the resurrection of the saints has not yet taken place.
Jesus testifies in Revelation 3:21: To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down (aorist active indicative) with my Father in his throne.”

Here you have it! This is a current ongoing reality. There is no getting away from this. From this passage we explicitly see:

(1) The battle was Calvary
(2) The outcome was victory,
(3) His reign is current,
(4) The location is heaven.

(5) The dead in Christ share in Christ current reign over His enemies.

Christ’s current heavenly reign over His enemies is inextricably linked to the decisive victory He secured through His life, death and glorious resurrection. Our Savior had to overcome. He had to defeat every enemy of righteousness. He had to overcome that which had overcome man -namely sin, Satan, hell and the grave. Christ’s present reign is therefore (1) to perfectly fulfil Scripture, and (2) to enforce the complete victory that was wrought.
Christ's victory at Calvary was designated a *redemptive victory over death.* It is not fully achieved until we are physically redeemed at the resurrection.
Hello! It is all the imaginary nonsense Premils attribute to Rev 20 that Amils expose. That is what I am hitting. Revelation 20 cuts across your perfect pristine Edenic environment. This is an illusion. Your millennium is saturated with billions of phonies who reveal their hand when Satan appears. The enemy overruns your millennium with his followers - as the sand of the sea.
Why is this imaginary? When Satan is no longer restrained and begins to deceive the nations once again, we will see the same result as we see today--international warfare and persecution of the saints. This is just what we are told in Rev 20.
  • Where in the OT does it say "that the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"?
Already answered this. Dan 2 and 7. The Kingdom of God defeats the pagan Kingdoms that precede it. And the saints are put in charge, along with the "Son of Man."
  • Where in the OT does it say "newly-converted Christians" are left "in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago" in some future millennium?
Zech 12.10 and Rev 1.7 indicate the earth "mourns" at the coming of the Son of Man. This reflects repentance and new birth. The prophecy of Israel's restoration indicates victory over the influence and oppression of world paganism. This is "rule over the nations."
  • Where in Revelation 20 does it teach Jesus will be "crowned king *on earth* in the promised Kingdom of God."
Rev 20 is the end of a long series of revelations, all of which point towards the coming of God's Kingdom, as seen, for example, in Rev 11.

Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

  • Where in Revelation 20 does it teach "human rebellion against God" will be "under better control than we now see it"?
The rule of the saints, together with the Son of Man in the Kingdom of God, restrains Satan during the Millennium. Rev 20.
 
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Truth7t7

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Yes, it's past tense. Our *membership* has been transferred from this world to the Kingdom of God, which is *future.* To be "translated into the Kingdom" is shorthand for "transferred membership."

I gave you the pertinent verses showing this. We are not yet literally in that Kingdom as if it has come to earth.

1 Pet 1.4 This inheritance is kept in heaven for you.

Phil 3.20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.


We are only "in that Kingdom" in the sense that our stake in the heavenly Kingdom is real and already functioning to some degree. It just has not yet been established on earth such that we can not yet have entered into it as an earthly inheritance.
The Kingdom of God was established on this earth by Jesus Christ, it's a spiritual Kingdom "Yes"

Randy There won't be a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you believe and teach, Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End) as you have been shown "several times"

The Land inheritance will be seen in the New Heaven and Earth, as Ezekiel Chapters 47-48 below clearly explains

"The Eternal Kingdom, In The New Heaven And Earth" Where The New Jerusalem, And The River/Tree Of Life Are Present

(The Eternal Kingdom)

Revelation 22:1-2KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Ezekiel 47:12-14KJV
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
13 Thus saith the Lord God; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.

"The Eternal New Jerusalem"


Ezekiel 48:29-35KJV
29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord God.
30 And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures.
31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.
32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.
33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.
34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.
35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there.

"The Eternal New Jerusalem"

Revelation 21:10-14KJV
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
 
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Timtofly

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I believe Rev 19 is about Christ and his glorified Church establishing God's Kingdom on the earth.

I don't know where you're getting "firstfruits" from?

So many things wrong with this! Instead of receiving doctrine from explicit biblical statements, you're trying to fit passages together like a puzzle arbitrarily. That makes *you* the generator of doctrine--not God.

I can't discuss biblical doctrine with someone who puts it together anyone he sees fit, rather than accepting what the Scriptures themselves say.
The Scriptures give us knowledge. Why do you balk at the knowledge revealed from reading God's Word? You are fixated on human doctrine, which has deviated from God's Word. I am not putting together a puzzle. I am not even forming doctrine. I am just pointing out what is simple reading comprehension.

I can't discuss God's Word with those who only discuss human theology. Theology is more at odds with Scripture than science fiction is. Of course doctrine is putting Scriptures together like a puzzle. That is why it is wrong.

The firstfruits are the bulk of a harvest. Read Matthew 13. It is all about sowing and reaping. Especially at the Second Coming when Jesus is on the earth with His angels, sowing and reaping. Armageddon is the burning of the field itself after the harvest is over. There is no harvest after Armageddon. The final harvest was over 42 months prior to Armageddon.
 

Timtofly

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The Messianic kingdom is here now. Can I remind you that the Messiah came as king with His kingdom a long time ago? Just because you reject that does not in any way negate it. Your theology causes you to dismiss it. Like the Pharisees, you fail to see the eschatological nature of His First Advent and the kingdom of God. That is the very reason why the Pharisees nailed Him to a tree. When Christ appeared at His first advent, the Jews imagined He would reinstate the now defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation, restoring their ancient borders. The Jewish expectation was a literal visible territorial kingdom of which the Messiah the King would rule over. They believed He would immediately destroy every enemy that withstood the house of Israel and usher in a period of physical and spiritual bliss for Israel.

When someone gets saved they enter into the kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises spiritual control. This kingship refers to the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness are pre-eminent.

Jesus said in Luke 17:21: “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”

The kingdom of God exists wherever the king – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His spiritual jurisdiction. It is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His divine kingship, dominion and intimate rule. It relates to all those who belong to His body. His kingdom embodies all those who possess the indwelling Holy Spirit – those who are real believers. Christ’s kingdom is therefore found wherever there are citizens of that kingdom.

The Lord revealed in this passage that the kingdom of God – His kingdom – was not a literal earthly domain neither could it be viewed like other kingdoms with their outward splendor, impressive power and magnitude. It is, rather, a spiritual kingdom, which can only be spiritually entered.

Jesus said in John 18:36, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

Christ couldn’t have made it clearer. This expectation – of a literal visible territorial political kingdom – was wrong. It exposed the ignorance which controlled the Jews. They had a defective perception of the nature of God’s kingdom and the manner in which it would appear.

The kingdom of God that Christ introduced was of a spiritual nature. This absolutely confounded the Pharisees and their misguided earthly carnal concept of the Messianic kingdom.

Colossians 1:18 says, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church.”

That means if you have given Christ kingship of your life then you are in the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God is in you!

Have you invited king Jesus into your heart? Then the kingdom of God is within you.

Jesus said in Matthew 6:33:seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”

As an American citizen you owe your allegiance to the American flag. But there is a higher allegiance. That is to Christ, because He is your King. The kingdom of God overrides every earthly kingdom. You are a Christian 1st, and an American 2nd.

When someone gets saved they enter into the kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises spiritual control. This kingship refers to the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness are pre-eminent.

In John 3:3 Jesus declared: Except a man be born again (or born from above), he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

We experience the kingdom of God through supernatural birth from above whereby we are supernaturally changed from a child of darkness to a child of God. Be assured, we cannot change ourselves. It must be a new birth.

Jesus continues in John 3:5, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

One can only “see” and “enter” the kingdom of God by grace through faith. None of us can earn it. None of us deserve it. Before you pat yourself on the back, remember even faith is a gift from God.
Premill don't claim the Kingdom is missing on earth.

Amil teaches Jesus is coming to destroy His earthly kingdom.

Premill teach Jesus is taking it back and establishing it while on earth.

Several parables teach the return of the Lord of the Vinyard is when the Lord takes over the Vinyard. The Lord does not destroy the Vinyard and replace it with a "robot factory".
 

WPM

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We obviously read it differently. Amils think this refers to the Ascension, and Premils like myself believe this refers to a future time when Christ will "rule." Again, you rule over something that is potentially rebellious--otherwise, you don't need to rule.

Scripture expressly refutes your position. Revelation 12:5-11 says: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Here is when he got his eviction notice, and here is "when" salvation came to the "whole world" - not just one nation Israel. The deception enveloping the Gentiles was lifted - praise God. They are now without excuse, just like those in the OT that rejected salvation. Salvation has now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s life, death and resurrection safely secured that. As a result the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Here you have it: “all rule and all authority and power” are “put down” at “Christ's … Coming.” It is that simple, and that clear. Those who take a clear, objective and literal straightforward reading of this text will see that it spells the end of all rebellion. However, this is the opposite to the Premil millennium: which has more wicked and more enemies arising and culminates in the greatest uprising in human history – as the wicked, against the saints of God “as the sand of the sea.”

Paul then reminds us:

1 Corinthians 15:25-26: “For he must reign (present, active infinitive), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”

Here he shows that Christ is reigning now. It is written in the present, active infinitive sense. How long does he reign? He confirms: “till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Again, this couldn’t be clearer! Every last enemy will be subjugated and subdued at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The last enemy is identified as death!

There you have it! The second coming sees the final subjugation of all:

· rule
· authority
· power
· death

Paul then reinforces this thought:

1 Corinthians 15:27-28 “For ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) all things under him. And when all things shall be (hupotasso) subdued (or subordinated or submitted to) unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to), that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

Paul, again, repeats the great truth that God “hath put all things under his feet” as He reigns in majestic glory upon high. The reign described here is aorist active indicative, meaning it is ongoing. He also shows, whilst Christ is reigning over His enemies as Lord and God, they will NOT be made His footstool, subdued and put down until the second coming.

The whole focus here is the current reign of Christ upon the heavenly throne that will culminate in the final downfall of all his enemies when he appears. Then we'll his enemies finally be subdued, put down, and made his footstool.

Hebrews 1:2, 3, 2:9 says, “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.”

There it is! He is the supreme power. He is the government. He carries all authority. Whilst new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise, Christ determines what He allows and what He doesn't. There is nothing that is not under Him. The world is NOT out of control. God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled, when God sees fit.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.
 

WPM

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But you think Christ is already ruling when Satan is clearly running amok, persecuting the saints, and setting the world on fire, so to speak. That would be a pretty weak "rule" if it was thought that God's Kingdom was already here on the earth. But I don't believe it is. Christ rules now, but not in the sense of an earthly Kingdom. Christ is restraining his judgment for the sake of those who are being saved. He is being patient.

Where you are getting confused is on the meaning of the binding. It is spiritual and not literal. It refers to the spiritual restraint placed on Satan since the First Advent through the ministry of Jesus. The Gentiles that were in darkness have now been enlightened by the Gospel. That is it!

Repeated Scripture uses binding in a figurative sense. The wicked are depicted as being in chains and in a prison before salvation. We all know that that is not literal. Also, repeated scripture shows the binding of Satan and his minions since the earthly ministry of Christ. So, when we get into the most symbolic book in the Bible, it is not difficult to get your head around the spiritual binding of Satan in order to enlighten the Gentiles since the resurrection – the first resurrection.

The strongman was bound 2000 years ago according to Jesus. He invaded the devil’s house, chained him and took a spoil. We are part of that spoil. This is figurative language.

Tenses have to be understood in context. For example, prolepses speak of things yet to take place as if they are being viewed already done. Putting everything under Christ, including death, has obviously not yet taken place since the resurrection of the saints has not yet taken place.

Christ's victory at Calvary was designated a *redemptive victory over death.* It is not fully achieved until we are physically redeemed at the resurrection.

Yes, the victory has been won. But it is active. It is ongoing.

Why is this imaginary? When Satan is no longer restrained and begins to deceive the nations once again, we will see the same result as we see today--international warfare and persecution of the saints. This is just what we are told in Rev 20..

Revelation 20 nowhere teaches a perfect pristine Edenic environment. This is an illusion. Your millennium is saturated with billions of phonies who reveal their hand when Satan appears. The enemy overruns your millennium with his followers - as the sand of the sea.

Already answered this. Dan 2 and 7. The Kingdom of God defeats the pagan Kingdoms that precede it. And the saints are put in charge, along with the "Son of Man."

Yes. That happened 2000 years ago. You try to erase so much facts from history.

Zech 12.10 and Rev 1.7 indicate the earth "mourns" at the coming of the Son of Man. This reflects repentance and new birth. The prophecy of Israel's restoration indicates victory over the influence and oppression of world paganism. This is "rule over the nations."

How can you go here? Your conflict is plainly with Scripture. The Holy Ghost plainly relates Zechariah 12:10 to the cross in John 19:30-37. That is not the case with Rev 1:7. These are two different events separated by 2,000 years. It cannot relate to both!
 
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WPM

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Rev 20 is the end of a long series of revelations, all of which point towards the coming of God's Kingdom, as seen, for example, in Rev 11.

Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”


The rule of the saints, together with the Son of Man in the Kingdom of God, restrains Satan during the Millennium. Rev 20.

He will reign forever, not for 1000 years as you claim. This refutes your Premil claims.