More biblical proof that supports Amillennialism

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ScottA

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Christ is reigning over a fallen earth now. When He comes again (at the last trumpet) He will rescue His elect and destroy His enemies. He will perfect us, and all creation. Both will be glorified. This is when the curse is lifted. Then we will have the general resurrection/judgment. This is when "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” I recognize that Full Preterists do not believe that. That is because they are heretics.
Whether by Preterists or by others, wrong is wrong.

What I have been explaining is how the thinking of mankind, the church, and the world, is wrong in their perspective difference between heaven and earth. This is the nature of the foretold strong delusion, great apostacy, and spirit of anti-Christ that was already at work 2,000 years ago. So...what you have been expressing is along those lines, while what I have been expressing is not, but is according to the sounding of the seventh angel which was to come and has come. In other words, great apostacy was foretold, but being lead unto all truth was also foretold. Which means that these times are much like the times when Christ first came when the Priests and beliefs of most was so wrong that most did not see Jesus for who He was. And now, not seeing Jesus "as He is", most think what was taught and what they have come to believe is what they expect, rather than what Jesus actually forewarned of, saying, "the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” The truth of which changes much of what has been believed, including the time of tribulation, the thousand years, the anti-Christ, etc..

Look rather at all things from the perspective of God in whom there is "no shadow of turning"--no time, and no timeline (which is not Preterist, for they just picked a time which is also wrong).
 

Randy Kluth

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In general, or a specific point in time?

Revelation 19 is not about the church glorified in Paradise.
I believe Rev 19 is about Christ and his glorified Church establishing God's Kingdom on the earth.
The saints here are the tribulation firstfruits. They are the millennium firstfruits like the 12 disciples were the Messianic firstfruits of the last 1992 years. Jesus was on earth, as Messiah between His baptism and the Cross roughly 3.5 years. Of course Paul was chosen later "out of season".
I don't know where you're getting "firstfruits" from?
So at the Second Coming, Jesus is on earth with the angels gathering the firstfruits, the sheep and wheat, after the church had already been removed. This is the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. Because the 7th Trumpet declares the 70th week is finished. Between the 6th Seal, and the 7th Trumpet, Jesus and the angels are harvesting the sheep and wheat as the final harvest of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.
So many things wrong with this! Instead of receiving doctrine from explicit biblical statements, you're trying to fit passages together like a puzzle arbitrarily. That makes *you* the generator of doctrine--not God.

I can't discuss biblical doctrine with someone who puts it together any way he sees fit, rather than accepting what the Scriptures themselves say.
 
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Truth7t7

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I believe Rev 19 is about Christ and his glorified Church establishing God's Kingdom on the earth.
Revelation Chapter 19 is about the Lord's second coming in destruction of the wicked, and the final judgment (The End), your claim above is false

Revelation 19:11-20KJV

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
 

FactsPlease

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"I can't discuss biblical doctrine with someone who puts it together anyone he sees fit, rather than accepting what the Scriptures themselves say."

I can! Please use briefer statements. What's the issue?
 

Randy Kluth

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Revelation Chapter 19 is about the Lord's second coming in destruction of the wicked, and the final judgment (The End), your claim above is false
Dan 2 and Dan 7 indicate God's Kingdom is established at the coming of the Son of Man. All of NT eschatology is based on that idea. Your denials notwithstanding. I recommend that anybody who questions this simply read the passages, and compare with NT statements of the same.
 
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Truth7t7

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Dan 2 and Dan 7 indicate God's Kingdom is established at the coming of the Son of Man. All of NT eschatology is based on that idea. Your denials notwithstanding. I recommend that anybody who questions this simply read the passages, and compare with NT statements of the same.
Your claim is "False"

Jesus comes in destruction of man by "Fire", there won't be a Millennial Kingdom on earth following

"Destroyed Them All"

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and
he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 

WPM

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Dan 2 and Dan 7 indicate God's Kingdom is established at the coming of the Son of Man. All of NT eschatology is based on that idea. Your denials notwithstanding. I recommend that anybody who questions this simply read the passages, and compare with NT statements of the same.

How many times do we need to tell you that Christ brought the kingdom with Him 2000 years ago? Where you find the king you find the kingdom.
 

Truth7t7

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How many times do we need to tell you that Christ brought the kingdom with Him 2000 years ago? Where you find the king you find the kingdom.
Romans 14:17KJV
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Colossians 1:13-14KJV
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
 
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WPM

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Romans 14:17KJV
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Colossians 1:13-14KJV
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Bro, why should Premils let the Scripture get in the way of what they have been taught?
 
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jeffweeder

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Dan 2 and Dan 7 indicate God's Kingdom is established at the coming of the Son of Man. All of NT eschatology is based on that idea. Your denials notwithstanding. I recommend that anybody who questions this simply read the passages, and compare with NT statements of the same.
Hi Randy
How do you account for the stone that establishes the everlasting kingdom, then becoming a mountain that fills the whole earth?

I take this to mean that Jesus , who is clearly the stone that established the everlasting kingdom, first went to Israel and from there the good news of the everlasting kingdom went to the gentiles and therefore filled the earth. The second coming reaps those from the whole world who inherit the everlasting kingdom. Today is the day we must be ready to enter it.
 

Randy Kluth

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Your claim is "False"

Jesus comes in destruction of man by "Fire", there won't be a Millennial Kingdom on earth following

"Destroyed Them All"

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and
he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
If Christ's Coming is like the judgment upon Sodom, then it certainly doesn't mean that the entire globe will be destroyed! Sodom was just a small city. When Christ comes he will destroy pockets of wicked throughout the earth--not the entire earth.

The Bible plainly says that the earth will *not* be completely destroyed, or annihilated. Rather, it will experience a change in phase, being made new.

Don't ask me what that means--I don't know. But the destruction of Sodom does not mean that all of humanity will be dissolved in one fell swoop.
 

Randy Kluth

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How many times do we need to tell you that Christ brought the kingdom with Him 2000 years ago? Where you find the king you find the kingdom.
How many times do I need to remind you that Christ said he brought the Kingdom "near," and not "here?" That's what he said brother. And it continued to be said long after Jesus went back to heaven.

The Kingdom did make an impact in the time of Christ, simply because Christ was representative of the Kingdom as its future King. So when people came face to face with Jesus, they came face to face with the Kingdom, not as if it had come, but only in the sense that they were confronted with its power and authority.

We sign onto the Kingdom of God in the present age, but it's membership is kept in reserve for us in heaven by Christ until he comes again. We shall inherit it only when we are made immortal. Then we will inherit the Kingdom as Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." And, "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

It is plain to most that there is some sense of the Kingdom's work in the present age. On that much we can agree. But we cannot agree that the Kingdom has actually come. Don't believe that at all!
 

Randy Kluth

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Hi Randy
How do you account for the stone that establishes the everlasting kingdom, then becoming a mountain that fills the whole earth?

I take this to mean that Jesus , who is clearly the stone that established the everlasting kingdom, first went to Israel and from there the good news of the everlasting kingdom went to the gentiles and therefore filled the earth. The second coming reaps those from the whole world who inherit the everlasting kingdom. Today is the day we must be ready to enter it.
I've never determined exactly what that means except that Christ's Kingdom will win out over the 4 Kingdoms of the present age. It's an odd thing to me, that the 4th Kingdom, which was pagan, became Christian. That's the Roman Empire.

And the Roman Empire is the last of the four and were believed, by the Church Fathers, to be the unifying element preventing its breakup and reconsolidation under Antichrist. And so, we know the Church began in the time of Christ, but his Coming signals to me the coming of his Everlasting Kingdom. We would both agree on that language, though differ on the eschatology.

I would not say that the Christianized Roman Empire is the Kingdom of God except as a temporary representation of it, much as Israel did in OT times. But the actual Kingdom of God comes when Christ returns to destroy paganism in these representations of God's Kingdom, Israel and Europe.
 

Truth7t7

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If Christ's Coming is like the judgment upon Sodom, then it certainly doesn't mean that the entire globe will be destroyed! Sodom was just a small city. When Christ comes he will destroy pockets of wicked throughout the earth--not the entire earth.

The Bible plainly says that the earth will *not* be completely destroyed, or annihilated. Rather, it will experience a change in phase, being made new.

Don't ask me what that means--I don't know. But the destruction of Sodom does not mean that all of humanity will be dissolved in one fell swoop.
Your claim is false

The heavens and earth will be "Dissolved" down to its very "Elements"

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Your claim is false

The heavens and earth will be "Dissolved" down to its very "Elements"

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Sodom was reduced to its elements by fire, but the whole earth was not! The Battle of Armageddon may very well be a nuclear war, a world war that will last only about an hour. Such a war would reduce many cities to dust. But it will not destroy the planet.
 

WPM

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How many times do I need to remind you that Christ said he brought the Kingdom "near," and not "here?" That's what he said brother. And it continued to be said long after Jesus went back to heaven.

The Kingdom did make an impact in the time of Christ, simply because Christ was representative of the Kingdom as its future King. So when people came face to face with Jesus, they came face to face with the Kingdom, not as if it had come, but only in the sense that they were confronted with its power and authority.

We sign onto the Kingdom of God in the present age, but it's membership is kept in reserve for us in heaven by Christ until he comes again. We shall inherit it only when we are made immortal. Then we will inherit the Kingdom as Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." And, "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

It is plain to most that there is some sense of the Kingdom's work in the present age. On that much we can agree. But we cannot agree that the Kingdom has actually come. Don't believe that at all!

There is so much is wrong with your theology that it is difficult to know where to begin. Repeated Scripture shows that Christ king now. He is reigning in majesty upon high now! He is risen from the dead and He is Lord. All power and authority belongs to Him now. Your false teaching causes you to dethrone Christ from His sovereign place reigning over His enemies today. You ducked around the Scripture I presented that exposes your BIG-DEVIL and small-jesus theology. Your theology forces Christ to abdicate His throne at the right hand of majesty on high. Your teachers have taught you wrong! Israel’s king has already come, and introduced His heavenly kingdom.

While you, your fellow Premils and the Pharisees did not accept Christ as Christ, many did and do today. Amongst them are most Amils. While Jesus did not come and meet the religious Jews faulty expectation of a physical territorial kingdom where the Messiah would reign over physical Israel and subjugate the Gentile nations. He did come as a spiritual king reigning over a spiritual kingdom.

Listen to how God revealed Christ to the wisemen in Matthew 2:1-2: behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.”

Here you have it! The sacred text testifies to the fact that Jesus Christ was “born King of the Jews.”

John 1:47-49: “Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! … Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.”

As the Lord’s ministry came to an end on earth we see Him entering into Jerusalem triumphant on a donkey. He received the adoration of the people.

Listen to what they were shouting on Palm Sunday. The people declared in John 12:12-15: “Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass’s colt.”

Before Jesus death in John 18:36 Jesus told Pilate: “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

In the next verse, Pilate asked Jesus: “Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”

While Jesus did not come and meet the religious Jews faulty expectation of a physical territorial kingdom where the Messiah would reign over physical Israel and subjugate the Gentile nations. He did come as a spiritual king reigning over a spiritual kingdom.

Israel’s king had come, and introduced His heavenly kingdom to this earth.

The Roman soldiers mocked Jesus in Matthew 27:29: when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!”

Their derision was directed toward Christ and the title because that is what belonged to Him, and that is what He claimed.

Above Jesus on the cross Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS (John 19:19).

By Christ’s own affirmation Pilate inscribed this great title upon the cross.

Kings carry authority. On Christ’s part, all authority. To deny Christ kingship is to deny His authority, because both are inextricably linked.

Jesus said Revelation 3:21: “I … overcame.”

Revelation 5:5 tells us: “behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed.”

The lion is known as the king of the jungle. It carries great authority and power. That is a very potent symbol of who Jesus is. By the way, the Bible does not say that Satan is a lion. It says that he walks about “like” a lion.

Ephesians 1:17-21, the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”

This passage confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high.

Philippians 2:9 says, wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name.”

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds.
 

WPM

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Sodom was reduced to its elements by fire, but the whole earth was not! The Battle of Armageddon may very well be a nuclear war, a world war that will last only about an hour. Such a war would reduce many cities to dust. But it will not destroy the planet.

The earth when Jesus comes is likened unto Sodom back in the day when total wholesale destruction fell. This totally eliminates Premil.
 

Randy Kluth

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There is so much is wrong with your theology that it is difficult to know where to begin. Repeated Scripture shows that Christ king now.
I believe Christ is king, but his Kingdom is not yet established on the earth, because Satan is the prince of this world, and the masses follow him. Your sense of God's Kingdom now looks pretty pathetic, with Antichrists everywhere in the world, and civilization moving away from true religion. That isn't the Kingdom that is coming.

You spend a lot of time arguing that Christ is king. He is not only king--he is divine. But that argument doesn't touch the real issue, which is that you believe Christ's Kingdom has already come to earth, and I don't believe so.
 

Randy Kluth

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The earth when Jesus comes is likened unto Sodom back in the day when total wholesale destruction fell. This totally eliminates Premil.
No, the whole earth will have a lot of Sodoms that will be destroyed. That is, many cities will likely fall. But the earth itself will remain intact, as even the Scriptures say.
 

Truth7t7

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How many times do I need to remind you that Christ said he brought the Kingdom "near," and not "here?" That's what he said brother. And it continued to be said long after Jesus went back to heaven.

The Kingdom did make an impact in the time of Christ, simply because Christ was representative of the Kingdom as its future King. So when people came face to face with Jesus, they came face to face with the Kingdom, not as if it had come, but only in the sense that they were confronted with its power and authority.

We sign onto the Kingdom of God in the present age, but it's membership is kept in reserve for us in heaven by Christ until he comes again. We shall inherit it only when we are made immortal. Then we will inherit the Kingdom as Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." And, "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

It is plain to most that there is some sense of the Kingdom's work in the present age. On that much we can agree. But we cannot agree that the Kingdom has actually come. Don't believe that at all!
Your claim is "False"

Will you deny the believers are translated onto God's kingdom upon this earth, your views are on denial of scripture seen below

Romans 14:17KJV
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Colossians 1:13-14KJV
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: