Must Christians obey government

[Rita]

I wrote the following ten years ago. I think it not only relevant to this discussion, but even more relevant to today's society, especially in America, than it was when I wrote it.
Balaam

Interesting read Backlit, thanks for sharing it. I have been reading about Balaam in the last week, on the subject of ‘ fearing the Lord ‘. Apt timing to your post ( well for me personally anyway )
Rita

 

[Brakelite]

Going back to rendering to caesar etc. Daniels three friends I presume did get dressed up for the occasion. It was a swanky affair. All the dignataries of the nation were there with the king. The king was unveiling his latest building program. It was rumored to be all gold. The best bands in the country were playing. Marching girls. Side shows. Entertainment. Food stalls. Pop up motels. Everyone taking advantage of the crowds and the opportunity this rare event presented. A money making extravaganza.
And Shadrach, Meschak and Abednego did as they were told. They showed up. They knew however there would be some stuff they didn't want to see. The side shows with naked ladies... The unsavory food... The foreign music that was distasteful to their senses... Yet they showed up. And they were dressed for the king. They wouldn't dream of going in their common work clothes. No no, this was a big event and all the Royal family were present along with their servants and likely their dogs. There would have been no thought that they would not show. And of course they were probably a little curious. What was under that big tarpaulin? What was this really all about? The annual agricultural trade fair was not for another two months. So those three obeyed the Kings request to go to the plain of Dura along with the rest of Babylon.
That was the limit however of the Kings jurisdiction.
When it came to worship, Nebuchadnezzar's authority stopped, and God's authority had precedence. S,M, and, A refused to bow to the gold image. Even under threat. Why? What made them different from everyone else?
They were not afraid. And that made the king real mad. But those young men upheld all righteousness, and demonstrated the bounds of the state when it comes to religion.

 

[marksman]

I think Churchill was right. Democracy allows for the majority to oppress the minority, and the minority has no say in the matter. They just gotta suck it up for 3 or 4 years, and even then their say is useless. They are still the minority.
America solved that issue through republicanism, whereby the minority are protected through the constitution and bill of rights. Added to that are the several checks and balances that exist in having state legislation with certain jurisprudence and federal for national affairs but not overriding state autonomy except in exceptional circumstances.
Okay. Remember guys I'm a kiwi living on Australia and I do not have a degree in political science or history, so the above is just an opinion okay? I may very well be very wrong so go easy on me please. But the way I understand the American way, it's several grades better than simple democracy.

In every democracy, there is a lot going for it and a lot going against it depending on who is running the show at any given time.

 

[Brakelite]

In every democracy, there is a lot going for it and a lot going against it depending on who is running the show at any given time.

I agree. The democracy I would fear most is the one headed by a 'benevolent Christian'.

 

[marksman]

I agree. The democracy I would fear most is the one headed by a 'benevolent Christian'.

An interesting point. In a discussion about democracy, one person suggested that a benevolent dictator was the best option. I can't say yes or no to that as I haven't come across one yet as they are usually brutes. I know that several have started out with the intention to be benevolent but it always seems to come unstuck when the power goes to their heads. A classic example was Mugabe of Zimbabwe. He was hailed by the blacks as their hero and saviour which he was but it did not last long. He was as despicable as any other dictator. Whilst the population lived in poverty, he lived in nine palaces.

 

[Brakelite]

I would rather live under a secular ruler who uphold a constitutional right to free speech and freedom of conscience, than a Christian ruler who would legislate Christian laws and doctrines for the "common good".

 

[marksman]

Hmmm, you do realize that the original apostles under persecution didn't resist arrest or fight the authorities with fists and weapons.;)

But they did disobey the government because they were told to shut up about Jesus and they didn't shut up about Jesus. They kept preaching that he was the Messiah and that they needed to repent and be baptised and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

As they say, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I haven't skinned a cat anyway, but that is what they say, whoever they are.

 

[historyb]

Who are you talking about Historyb ?
As far as I am aware, we followed what Europe was doing - We saw what was going on in Spain and Italy - so we acted.
I would be interested to know who you are talking about though , I am intrigued as to who it was you think the USA experts followed.
Rita

The US followed some guy model from the UK that was in the Government and got fired because he broke the stay at home orders (not sure what you all call lock down over there) and the models were wildly wrong as almost all models have been

 

[historyb]

I have never said that I don’t believe that there are no deceptions or that I don’t think the virus is being used. I equally don’t trust the governments as far as I could throw them, and that’s no distance at all!! I do not believe that the virus is fake -

I agree with you.

 

[Brakelite]

only they arent preventing anyone from dying; your immune system does that. And what they were first saying--before the manipulation started--was "flatten the curve," remember? Bc you cannot stop the wind, but what you can do by socially isolating healthy people is make them sick, too, in the end.

True. And isolating oneself by closing oneself off from bacteria and life with all its threats in fact weakens the immune system. It si dirt...germs...viruses...bacteria...etc etc that strengthens our immune system. Let you children play outside in the dirt and they will be the healthiest children. Keep them inside in from and in the midst of sterilised everything, and they will grow weak and the moment they go outside, they will succumb to illness by those same agents that if welcomed and grown accustomed to, would be allies to their health.

 

[Rita]

The US followed some guy model from the UK that was in the Government and got fired because he broke the stay at home orders (not sure what you all call lock down over there) and the models were wildly wrong as almost all models have been

Neil furguson was the minister you are talking about - and there is no way you can know that his models were wrong. We lockdown, his model was about how many people could die if we didn’t. So you cannot claim it’s wrong because it could only be viewed from the prospective of not locking down. He broke the lockdown rules because he had already had the virus, isolated and was in recovery when he decided it would be okay to have girlfriend come over - twice. He resigned
As to the USA following one model - how big is your country , how many experts do you have ?
And your telling me your country locked down on the basis of one person from the UK -come on seriously !
Also I can guarantee that our lockdown would not have been on the basis of one man with a model - it was part of the equation, he was part of a committee ‘ sage ‘ which offers ‘ scientific advise to our government.
As I said before we were also watching what was happening in Europe. Rita

 

[marksman]

Open slather on obeying the government has its problems. As we have seen again and again when a leader is given cart Blanche to make and impose the rules what does he become....a dictator. There is a verse in scripture that says there is safety in many counselors. That would suggest a big no to a single person running a country.

In a democracy, we have the voice of many counsellors but first, they have to agree to all say the same thing decided in the Party Room meetings and policy is decided in State and National conferences. I have been to a few so I know how it works.

If you are a backbencher supposedly you are free to say what you like. Just bear in mind that you can lose your endorsement for the seat you hold.

A classic example was the vote for legalised same-sex marriage. A big swathe of Labor electorates in the west of Sydney voted against it mainly because of the high number of Muslims living there. As far as I remember all the Labor MPs who represented those electorates voted for same-sex marriage in Parliament when they should have acknowledged the wishes of their electorates not to legalize it by voting against.

Why did they do this? Party policy to vote for it. So in a democracy, your local MP is not always interested in what you have to say.

Which goes back to Winston Churchill saying democracy is the worst form of government but it is better than all the others and he should know. He presided over the victory against Germany and at the next election they threw him out.

 

[Brakelite]

I think Christians today are losing sight of who the real enemy is. They say "we are being attacked", but yeah, by who? The political gang on the left? Or the political gang on the right? Both are gangs guys, and we are not called to join gangs. Our work is to love people in both gangs, and present to both gangs the gospel. Our fight is not against flesh and blood, we are not to denigrate one gang in favour of another. The moment you do that, you take on the gang mentality and join up. Neither gang has the solution to mankind's problems. The problems the world faces today are sin. Not political affiliation. Yes, resist evil by all means, but remember from whence evil comes. Both sides are deluded in thinking they have the solutions. And there are problems on both sides. Yes, there's totalitarianism being a threat from one side. And there are genuine grievances on the other. But the answer is not political. The answer is Jesus Christ. And both sides, wherever you are, in Britain, America, Australia or New Zealand, both sides need Jesus. And remember, there are no definitive lines dividing either side. There are atheists on both sides...there are Christians on both sides. But the reason they have joined the gangs, is because they don't understand either the gospel, or the God who offers it.

posted in another thread, but I think worth repeating here.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The many scriptures that many have posted show that God wants us to be submissive to government authorities. This means we obey all the laws of the governments that are not contradictory to Gods laws. Obeying Gods laws always come first. Even if we have to go to jail for putting Gods laws first. This doesn't mean however we are to start a revolution. There will never be a perfect human government. Human governments will always have injustice and unfairness in them. The only government that will be perfect and righteous just and fair is Gods Kingdom also called the Messianic kingdom.

 

[Sabertooth]

Must Christians obey government?

Yes, to the extent that it doesn't interfere with our general obedience before God, directly.

For example, seat belt & [motorcycle] helmet laws do not interfere with our faithful service before God. The laws in the USA allow people to do some inappropriate things, but I can think of no instance where they order us to.

 

[Cristo Rei]

Should Christians obey government under any circumstance(s)?

We are to obey governments unless they violate Scripture. Acts 5:29 says, "We must obey God rather than men."

Are there times when Christians should resist government?

Whenever a government violates biblical teaching, Christians are obligated to disobey that government. For example, if a government were to declare that we should kill all Asians, we should disobey. Governments are run by people and often become corrupt. Furthermore, the Bible never tells us to obey governments in contradiction to the revealed Word of God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

A topic that is especially timely today in this fallen world that is getting 'smaller' every year.

Today, many people are in fear whether imagined or true. Some people are resisting government, many are obedient to it.

Should Christians obey government under any circumstance(s)?

Are there times when Christians should resist government? And if so, how are they to conduct themselves?

Please cite scripture where and when possible as the 'glue' of these discussions as in all biblical discussions of debate.

Thank you,

Blessings

APAK

Others have already given you the many passages that show we are to be subject to human government. We are to bey in any circumstance, but not every circumstance! The times we must resist human government is when they demand we violate the clear unambiuous teachings of teh NewTestament . If they demand we stop meeting or stop praying, we must obey our highest authority which is our Father in heaven.

But as long as nay law does not violate clear Scriptural principles or commands we are commanded to obey.

 

[OzSpen]

Well with no restrictions, this could have been as bad as the Spanish Flu. And the earth has a bigger population and is more densely populated now. I believe the medical experts and governments did not want to see a repeat of the Spanish flu.

Josho,

At no time have I suggested no restrictions.

What’s the alternative? Is there a national policy for Australia to emulate? The model set by Taiwan, with a similar size population to Australia (23.8 million), is worth considering. It consisted of these elements:

There was quick action to control the country’s borders.

On January 20 the Central Epidemic Command Center (CECC) was activated to coordinate cooperation across government agencies and between government and businesses.

‘The CECC also coordinates big data analytics, testing, quarantine and contact tracing’.

The national health insurance administration and immigration agency ‘worked together to identify suspected cases for COVID-19 testing, integrating their databases of citizens’ medical and travel history’.

Like Australia, since late March all new arrivals in Taiwan must quarantine for 14 days.

The CECC partnered with police, local officials and telecom companies to enforce the quarantine. This included support of mobile phone tracking.

Care for those quarantined was guaranteed by citizens who asked about the health of people in quarantine and basic daily supplies were provided, if required.

​

A 24-hour helpline was available, provided by Taiwan’s Center for Disease Control collaborated with two tech companies – HTC and LINE. This created a chatbox which allowed people to report their health status and get advice about the virus’.

Taiwan tests about 5,800 samples a day. A health worker distributes hand sanitiser at Ningxia Night Market, Taipei in late May.

To avoid the panic buying of face masks, the government rationed their distribution and ramped up production. In February, the government partnered with the Machine Tool & Accessory Builders’ Association and manufacturers, investing in new machinery to produce surgical face masks. In return, manufacturers have to sell the masks back to the government at an agreed price. This cost approximately $6.8 million (What coronavirus success of Taiwan and Iceland has in common, The Conversation, 29 June 2020).

These details are taken from my article published in On Line Opinion, 31 August 2020, A better way of dealing with Covid-19.

Oz

 

[historyb]

Neil furguson was the minister you are talking about - and there is no way you can know that his models were wrong

They were hilariously wrong. He has no idea what he is doing. It was proved here he was absolutely wrong and all that crap we did was for nothing

 

[historyb]

The many scriptures that many have posted show that God wants us to be submissive to government authorities. This means we obey all the laws of the governments that are not contradictory to Gods laws. Obeying Gods laws always come first. Even if we have to go to jail for putting Gods laws first. This doesn't mean however we are to start a revolution. There will never be a perfect human government. Human governments will always have injustice and unfairness in them. The only government that will be perfect and righteous just and fair is Gods Kingdom also called the Messianic kingdom.

So the war for independence was wrong, got ya. In the USA the governments works for us and they must obey us