New Covenant only for Jews?

[covenantee]

Have for over 3 decades now.

biblically the church is defined as those believers born of the Spirit of God which did not start happening until Pentecost! OT Israel are saints but not the church, TRribulation believers are saints but not the Church. Even Rev. 19 shows people in heaven who are not the church rejoicing that teh bride is marrying jesus.

Israel is trhe wife of Jehovah, the church is the bride of Christ!

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[Brakelite]

Have for over 3 decades now.

biblically the church is defined as those believers born of the Spirit of God which did not start happening until Pentecost! OT Israel are saints but not the church, TRribulation believers are saints but not the Church. Even Rev. 19 shows people in heaven who are not the church rejoicing that teh bride is marrying jesus.

Israel is trhe wife of Jehovah, the church is the bride of Christ!

So what is Romans 11:13-26 all about? Who are we grafted into?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

YOu did great until this line!

YOu conveniently ignored in the Roman passage- that God declared "In Isaac shall they seed be called."

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

These are correct! and when yo0u add the clear and unambiguous passages from teh OT, god is going to take the natiopn of Israel (physical) bring them back to Israel ( in process) and judge them and purge all the rebels from their midst! That is Ezekiel 20. Then in Zech 13 we see hoew many need to be purged- 2/3 during the tribulation time.

The New Covenant belongs to the House of Judah and the House of Israel or the twelve tribes!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So what is Romans 11:13-26 all about? Who are we grafted into?

We are grafted into Jesus! Not the New covenant.

John 15
King James Version

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.



See it is right there in the bible! We don't need to listen to Anti-Semitic teachers with their heretical replacement theology to see God still has a plan for the nation of Israel.

 

[covenantee]

YOu did great until this line!

YOu conveniently ignored in the Roman passage- that God declared "In Isaac shall they seed be called."




These are correct! and when yo0u add the clear and unambiguous passages from teh OT, god is going to take the natiopn of Israel (physical) bring them back to Israel ( in process) and judge them and purge all the rebels from their midst! That is Ezekiel 20. Then in Zech 13 we see hoew many need to be purged- 2/3 during the tribulation time.

The New Covenant belongs to the House of Judah and the House of Israel or the twelve tribes!

You conveniently ignored Paul's elucidation:

Romans 9
7...In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The New Covenant belongs to the faithful and obedient in Christ.

His Church.

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

And what do you think this new testament is?

Here is the only covenant called a new covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Show me one place where Gentiles are included.

And you ignore Pauls elucidation here:

Romans 11:25-29
King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

If Israel is now the church- then god is blinding some of the church until the fulness comes in.

so who in your allegorical reinterpretation are the gentiles here?

No one who looks at this passage in a normal usual literal grammatical way would come up with some cockamamey idea like replacement theology brings forth.

 

[covenantee]

And what do you think this new testament is?

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Who do you think "us" is?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Who do you think "us" is?

The apostles and leaders.

but show me in Jer. 31: 31-34 where Gentiles are mentioned in the New Covenant.

And you also need to remember that a covenant is not the same as a testament!

A covenant is a binding pact between two parties, while a testament is the disposition of something after a testator dies! There is a difference though many believers use these words interchangeably!

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A COVENANT AND A TESTAMENT: Ken Blue Ministries

 

[PinSeeker]

The apostles and leaders.

No, he's talking about all Christians, all who are in Christ, which now includes both Jew and Gentile. There can be no mistaking this fact. Paul himself clarifies this throughout his letters:

• "...in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise." [Galatians 3:26-29]

There is such a thing as replacement theology, but it is incorrectly applied here. It's actually an inclusion theology, Ronald. The Israel of God ~ even throughout Old Testament times ~ included believing ethnic Jews, and now Gentiles are included. And this is how it will always be. This is exactly what Paul is saying here in Galatians, and he says the same thing throughout his letters:

• "So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous... Now I am speaking to you Gentiles... some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree... And even they (ethnic Jews), if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again... a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." [Romans 11:11-26]

• "For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles ~ assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation... This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." [Ephesians 3:1-6]

• "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all." [Colossians 3:5-11]

• "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, Whom He appointed the heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world." [Hebrews 1:1-2]

Is that enough for you, Ronald? It's not an exhaustive list, even. Surely it is enough. Surely.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

The apostles and leaders.

but show me in Jer. 31: 31-34 where Gentiles are mentioned in the New Covenant.

And you also need to remember that a covenant is not the same as a testament!

A covenant is a binding pact between two parties, while a testament is the disposition of something after a testator dies! There is a difference though many believers use these words interchangeably!

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A COVENANT AND A TESTAMENT: Ken Blue Ministries

2 Corinthians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:


Romans 9
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

1 Corinthians 1:24
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Galatians 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


2 Corinthians 3:6 Greek
1242 [e]
diathēkēs
διαθήκης ,
covenant
N-GFS


I invite you to quote just one pre-19th-century recognized defender of the true Christian faith who denies as you do that the New Testament is also the New Covenant.
Just one. Source, name, date, verbatim quote.

I invite you to quote just one pre-19th-century recognized defender of the true Christian faith who denies as you do that the New Covenant/Testament is for every Blood-Bought Child of God.
Just one. Source, name, date, verbatim quote.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I invite you to quote just one pre-19th-century recognized defender of the true Christian faith who denies as you do that the New Testament is also the New Covenant.
Just one. Source, name, date, verbatim quote.

Well if I do quote someone, based on how you worded the challenge- you would simply call them not a true defender.

but I ask you again:

Show me in the New Covenant as inspired by God:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more


where gentiles are partakers of the new covenant. Of the New Testament? Yes we are! But of the new covenant? NO we aren't.

And if you insist that now Jew and Israel are synonymous with the church then you have a serious problem:

Romans 11:25-30
King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

If we follow your logic that Israel is the church and the church is now Israel, then there is blindness in the church (and this only means saved people in Pauls writing)

Then Paul refers write back to Jer. 31.

So maybe you are one of th eblinded ? Who are the gentiles here if non-Jews? and who told you this new definition of Israel and gentile?

 

[covenantee]

Well if I do quote someone, based on how you worded the challenge- you would simply call them not a true defender.

Is there a problem with how I worded the challenge?

If what you are espousing is Scriptural, then there must be at least one exegete who, over the 17 centuries of Church history, meets the criteria that I listed.

Who is it?

Show me in the New Covenant as inspired by God:

Jeremiah 31:31-34

Show me how Jeremiah 31:31-34 disproves the Scriptures that I've cited previously, which include the Gentiles in the New Covenant.

where gentiles are partakers of the new covenant. Of the New Testament? Yes we are! But of the new covenant? NO we aren't.

Here is 2 Corinthians 3:6 again, this time from the YLT, which is even more literal than the KJV:

2 Corinthians 3:6
who also made us sufficient [to be] ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.

The spurious attempt to divorce the meanings of New Covenant and New Testament, translated from the same Greek word diatheke, is a contrivance of modernist dispensational futurism.

It is absolutely unseen and unknown in 17 centuries of pre-19th-century Christian orthodoxy.

So maybe you are one of th eblinded ? Who are the gentiles here if non-Jews? and who told you this new definition of Israel and gentile?

Did you notice in the Scripture? Only Israel was blinded in part.

I'm not an Israelite.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Show me how Jeremiah 31:31-34 disproves the Scriptures that I've cited previously, which include the Gentiles in the New Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This covenant is made solely with the house of Israel and the house of Judah! not once is a gentile even hinted at in this new covenant.

Now the new testament is something different than the new covenant.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Here is 2 Corinthians 3:6 again, this time from the YLT, which is even more literal than the KJV:

2 Corinthians 3:6
who also made us sufficient [to be] ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.

The spurious attempt to divorce the meanings of New Covenant and New Testament, translated from the same Greek word diatheke, is a contrivance of modernist dispensational futurism.

It is absolutely unseen and unknown in 17 centuries of pre-19th-century Christian orthodoxy.

Transliteration
diathēkē διατίθημι (G1303)
Greek Inflections of διαθήκη διαθῆκαι — 2x
διαθήκη — 7x
διαθήκῃ — 2x
διαθήκην — 5x
διαθήκης — 16x
διαθηκῶν — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: covenant (20x), testament (13x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly possessions after his death, a testament or will
   

Well as most of the first 17 centuries were under the bondage of Romanism..... Besides the commentators are not the Bible.

Once again read jeremiah 31:31-34 and show me where the gentiles are in the new Covenant. This covenant is the only new one mentioned in the bible.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Did you notice in the Scripture? Only Israel was blinded in part.

I'm not an Israelite.

So Israel here means Israel and not the church? I thought you all keep telling me now the church is Israel! That is how you all get to say the New Covenant is for the church.

 

[covenantee]

This covenant is made solely with the house of Israel and the house of Judah! not once is a gentile even hinted at in this new covenant.

You ignore the fact that Israel from its birth was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles:

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.


The racialist claim that
"not once is a gentile even hinted at in this new covenant"
is false.

Now the new testament is something different than the new covenant.

They are the same. Christ's New Covenant is both a will and testament; and a bidirectional agreement and relationship; for all who receive Him.

You deny that there has ever yet been a New Covenant. So what New Covenant is this?

Matthew 26 YLT
27 and having taken the cup, and having given thanks, he gave to them, saying, `Drink ye of it -- all;
28 for this is my blood of the new covenant, that for many is being poured out -- to remission of sins;

 

[covenantee]

Well as most of the first 17 centuries were under the bondage of Romanism

Dispensational futurism (df) obviously doesn't consider its futurism, spawned in the Jesuit counterfeit counter-reformation of Romanism's apostasized papacy, to be bondage.

God has always preserved His True Church, df's denial notwithstanding.

I'll opt for seventeen centuries of prophetic wisdom and discernment over two centuries of futurized fantasy and fallacy.

Every time.

Besides the commentators are not the Bible.

Nor are df commentators.

 

[covenantee]

So Israel here means Israel and not the church? I thought you all keep telling me now the church is Israel! That is how you all get to say the New Covenant is for the church.

Provide a verbatim quote and link to any post in which I've claimed that the church is Israel.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Why does it say the "New Covenant" Jesus made is only for the Jews?

Hebrews 8:8 - But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

Romans 9:6-8...
"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."

"Israel" is not the Jews by birth....but disciples of Jesus are adopted as God's sons. Paul calls them "the Israel of God". (Galatians 6:16)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You ignore the fact that Israel from its birth was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles:

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.


The racialist claim that
"not once is a gentile even hinted at in this new covenant"
is false.

Now if you would only read those verses you quoted as evidence! Yes, they are for gentiles- who are living in the land of Israels' promise- the land of Israel. It is not for those gentiles living in their own lands like we are! And this was to live in the promised land accordingto the OLD covenant. Now show where the gentiles are under the new covenant .

YOu make the typical sloppy mistake of faulty exegesis and replacing it eisegesis.