Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Just because the topic is religion does not mean one cannot use reason to learn about it.
'No Immortal Soul'? (Challenge)
- Thread starter MatthewG
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
It’s not about the people but the method. In logic, statistics and law, the default is the null hypothesis unless the positive claim has sufficient evidence in support.
The prosecution makes the positive claim, the Defendant is guilty. They have the burden to prove this positive claim.
The Defense only need to introduce reasonable doubt, to deny the positive claim and accept H0, the null hypothesis, the soul is NOT immortal.
This prevents us from claiming knowledge without sufficient evidence. Less than certain knowledge, we may speculate, intuit, or believe the alternate hypothesis, Ha, but we must humbly acknowledge there is not sufficient evidence to say one knows this.
Hope this helps.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
If the word 'ruin' is used for the purpose of ratcheting mortality around to immortality, one has embarked on the slippery slope of self deception.
The word 'destroy' is clear. It is the end product of the pronouncement, 'you will surely die'
The topic is the Bible and the only reason God accepts is believing His words on the matter.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mortal body, immortal soul beyond the grave.
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
The soul is absent from the dead body in the grave, with the righteous now in the presence of the Lord in heaven, or the wicked now in the presence of angels chained in hell.
There is no theological nor religious argument here. Only belief or unbelief in God's words of the Bible.
Preaching the soul is the body and the body and soul's of the wicked obliviate with fire scorching the earth, is only the unjust man's ideological dismissal of judgement and condemnation after the grave.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
The judgment of God for our works is eternal shame apart from Him or eternal life with Him.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
No... there's one thing God cannot do... it's right there in scripture too as He said it.
Any idea what they is that it's not possible for God to do?
God is truth and every man a liar.
So let it be written, so let it be done
Pharaoh; The Ten Commandments.
Amen and WITHOUT HIS OWN private interpretation of what God is saying!
This is the deception tool satan uses..........." Did God REALLY SAY"?
He causes many to question then doubt what God says is the TRUTH!
Guess people can consider the information then. If you choose to sin all you want all it leads to is death. Death is something one should be most terrified of, right? It's when the curtain closes.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Hello @MatthewG ....just wanted to add my 2c’s worth...
Truth be known....the words “immortal soul” do not exist in any passage of scripture. There is no such thing as an immortal soul...all souls, both man and animals, are mortal. For humans, it didn’t not mean that they had to die, but that they could lose their lives.....if they disobeyed God’s command.
If humans were created to be immortal, then the prohibition on eating from the TKGE, would make no sense since the penalty for eating the fruit was death....an immortal cannot die.
Think about the creation of man.....all the “souls” that God created had a life cycle....except man....the only one created in God’s image. This gave him moral qualities and a sense of right and wrong. It also gave humans a unique capacity...to understand time. Only humans have a concept of past, present and future with the ability to imagine a planned action before it takes place in the future. Animals live in the moment, programmed by instinct to preserve their own lives and to reproduce their kind.
Where did this idea that man can outlive his body come from? Certainly not from the scriptures.
King Solomon wrote....
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going.” (Eccl 9:5-6, 10)
His Father, King David also wrote...
“Do not put your trust in princes
Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.
4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psalm 146:3-4)
So just in these two passages, the dead are not conscious in sheol, and they have no ability to think or plan or even to love or hate. If a conscious part of man survived the death of the body, then ability to think and feel emotions would certainly still be part of their character.....
David also wrote in Psalm 115:17...
“The dead do not praise Jah;
Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.”
The dead cannot do anything because the souls dies when the body dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) There is silence in death.
Ask yourself.....where were you before your parents conceived you? You simply did not exist....why is it so hard to believe that we “return to the dust” as God told Adam. In Eden there was no mention of life AFTER death....just LIFE and DEATH.
RESURRECTION is what God promises.....that is a return to life, not a continuation of it.
The one who wants us to think we don’t really die is the one who told that first lie.
Truth be known....the words “immortal soul” do not exist in any passage of scripture. There is no such thing as an immortal soul...all souls, both man and animals, are mortal. For humans, it didn’t not mean that they had to die, but that they could lose their lives.....if they disobeyed God’s command.
If humans were created to be immortal, then the prohibition on eating from the TKGE, would make no sense since the penalty for eating the fruit was death....an immortal cannot die.
Think about the creation of man.....all the “souls” that God created had a life cycle....except man....the only one created in God’s image. This gave him moral qualities and a sense of right and wrong. It also gave humans a unique capacity...to understand time. Only humans have a concept of past, present and future with the ability to imagine a planned action before it takes place in the future. Animals live in the moment, programmed by instinct to preserve their own lives and to reproduce their kind.
Where did this idea that man can outlive his body come from? Certainly not from the scriptures.
King Solomon wrote....
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going.” (Eccl 9:5-6, 10)
His Father, King David also wrote...
“Do not put your trust in princes
Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.
4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psalm 146:3-4)
So just in these two passages, the dead are not conscious in sheol, and they have no ability to think or plan or even to love or hate. If a conscious part of man survived the death of the body, then ability to think and feel emotions would certainly still be part of their character.....
David also wrote in Psalm 115:17...
“The dead do not praise Jah;
Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.”
The dead cannot do anything because the souls dies when the body dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) There is silence in death.
Ask yourself.....where were you before your parents conceived you? You simply did not exist....why is it so hard to believe that we “return to the dust” as God told Adam. In Eden there was no mention of life AFTER death....just LIFE and DEATH.
RESURRECTION is what God promises.....that is a return to life, not a continuation of it.
The one who wants us to think we don’t really die is the one who told that first lie.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
This idea that man is immortal is the lie Satan began at the Garden of Eden.
Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
The Bible is clear that man dies and returns to dust in the grave and awaits the resurrection.
Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?"
1 Samuel 3:3 Samuel was laid down to SLEEP;
1 Samuel 28:3 Now SAMUEL was DEAD, and all Israel had lamented him, and BURIED HIM in RAMAH,
Psalm 104:29
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
In the book of Job it is stated: "But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he?... So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep... If a man dies, shall he live again?" (Job 14:10,12,14a NKJV)
and also what is happening when we are dead:
Deuteronomy 31:16 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
2 Samuel 7:12 - And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.
1 Kings 1:21 - Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.
Job 7:21 - And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.
Psalms 13:3 - Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Psalms 30:9 "What will you gain from my death? What profit from my going to the grave? Are dead people able to praise you? Can they proclaim your unfailing goodness?
Psalms 76:6 - At thy rebuke, O God of Jacob, both the chariot and horse are cast into a dead sleep.
Isaiah 57:2 Those who live good lives find peace and rest in death.
Jeremiah 51:39 - In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 51:57 - And I will make drunk her princes, and her wise men, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men: and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.
Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
In the New Testament we see
Matthew 9:24 - He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Mark 5:39 - And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luke 8:52 - And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
John 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Act 2:31-32 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts 7:59 -60 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 13:36 - For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Ephesians 5:14 - Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Corinthians 15:51 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 - For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
2 Peter 3:4 - And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
And when we will come out of the grave.
John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Acts 4:2
Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
And what Christ himself tells us will happen to those who have died, the resurrection of the just, and the resurrection of damnation for the wicked.
Luke 14:14
And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
These text clearly show the soul does not continue on after death or the dead float in spirit bodies and dwell Gods presence. We wait in the grave till the resurrection to receive our reward one way or the other..
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Of course science can prove faith - that can be proved, that is subject to evidentiary standards! See
Evidence To Be Seen
We should not and need not abandon the field of evidence to the lost enemies of our Lord. See Psalm 19. In that thread, I made the following points. While faith is the evidence of things unseen, there is evidence to be seen. (In this thread, I want to compile the evidence.) Are you required to...
www.christianityboard.com
Evidence To Be Seen - Part 2, In Scripture
While folks like @Behold lean heavily on faith and against works, James does talk about the union of faith and works in 2:18. The virtue of works is the objective evidence of its existence. While God rested on the 7th Day, we are not deists. God continues to work, to show his faithfulness. My...
www.christianityboard.com
But this is besides the point. Your question is not about faith but the nature of the soul.
The only reason we read the Bible is because we deem it an acceptable authority on the subject it addresses. Therefore, one can study it using our reasoning mind. We don't randomly point to a verse - and on faith - claim it supports anything at random. So, the Bible can be broken up into 3 categories.
- Verses that support Ha.
- Verses that have nothing to do with the hypothesis.
- Verses that support H0.
Hope this helps.
This idea that man is immortal is the lie Satan began at the Garden of Eden.
The dead dont do anything your right. They are corpses in a grave, with no soul, rotting bones. The soul is the life, that God breathed into Adam, that makes you, you. You have the right to think what you want, say what you want, do what you want all within the individual soul that when it leaves a body, - there is no more life left, the blood stopped pumping, they can't know anything now - they aren't even there. (that is why I believe that being spiritually dead is a thing until one becomes spiritually alive in Christ.) Jesus said to one person who wanted to go bury his father - 'let the dead bury their own dead', speaking of 'the walking spiritually dead, worried over the fleshly ways and not the spiritual which are far superior., however only believed in faith.
Yeah, immortal soul doesn't exist in the scripture, however, it seems to me everyone who died, moved on to Sheol, Jesus went to Sheol, paradise, and prison parts of it, and was raised again by the spirit of God, on the third day, and he triumphed over death and hell. To me, your soul is you, the person who you are behind the screen, a person I have no idea about, nor idea about your life, or anything of the sort. However, God does love you, and he will resurrect you when you die. Same thing with me. Everyone else.
The dead dont do anything your right. They are corpses in a grave, with no soul, rotting bones. The soul is the life, that God breathed into Adam, that makes you, you. You have the right to think what you want, say what you want, do what you want all within the individual soul that when it leaves a body, - there is no more life left, the blood stopped pumping, they can't know anything now - they aren't even there. (that is why I believe that being spiritually dead is a thing until one becomes spiritually alive in Christ.) Jesus said to one person who wanted to go bury his father - 'let the dead bury their own dead', speaking of 'the walking spiritually dead, worried over the fleshly ways and not the spiritual which are far superior., however only believed in faith.
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
This is a great verse here, concerning what the Lord Jesus Christ said, about the two resurrection one of life, and one of damnation, that to me suggest everyone who dies, is resurrected now today, good or bad. If you would like to go further, Revelation 21, and 22, are great to read and go over, from that I see a spiritual kingdom, with an outside to it with people in both places.
I do agree that human beings are not immortal, and there is no way escaping death. Jesus himself did not escape death.
Of course science can prove faith - that can be proved, that is subject to evidentiary standards! See
Evidence To Be Seen
We should not and need not abandon the field of evidence to the lost enemies of our Lord. See Psalm 19. In that thread, I made the following points. While faith is the evidence of things unseen, there is evidence to be seen. (In this thread, I want to compile the evidence.) Are you required to...
Evidence To Be Seen - Part 2, In Scripture
While folks like @Behold lean heavily on faith and against works, James does talk about the union of faith and works in 2:18. The virtue of works is the objective evidence of its existence. While God rested on the 7th Day, we are not deists. God continues to work, to show his faithfulness. My...
But this is besides the point. Your question is not about faith but the nature of the soul.
The only reason we read the Bible is because we deem it an acceptable authority on the subject it addresses. Therefore, one can study it using our reasoning mind. We don't randomly point to a verse - and on faith - claim it supports anything at random. So, the Bible can be broken up into 3 categories.
- Verses that support Ha.
- Verses that have nothing to do with the hypothesis.
- Verses that support H0.
Hope this helps.
Yes, I would agree to some extent, needs to think, and reason between not only between themselves, but between themselves and God, while verses all should connect and support people look at them many different way, and because of so many verse co-relating it stays at a standard level of answering a question with apologetics (it something I do not particularly care for.)
There is freedom in the spirit to have some freedom of thought, and also believe that God is actually your Father in heaven, because the scripture says that, and you have Satan defeated in the bible, and Jesus coming back in the bible, but people desire to fight, via verse supports Ha, or on and on.
Science,
sci·ence
(sī′əns)n.
1.
a. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena: new advances in science and technology.
b. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena: the science of astronomy.
2. A systematic method or body of knowledge in a given area: the science of marketing.
3. Archaic Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
When it comes to faith,
faith (fāth) n. 1. a. Belief in God or in a set of religious doctrines. b. A set of religious doctrines; a body of dogma: adhered to the Muslim faith.
The definition of faith, that the writer of Hebrews to his audience said to them in Hebrews 11:1-3
Now faith is the [a]assurance of things [b]hoped for, the [c]conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old [d]gained approval.3 By faith we understand that the [e]worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
Everyone who has faith, and hope, and trust, and confidence in the one whom made them, they can not see. There is knowledge surrounding the bible, and it does help expand and build upon faith, if one does it correctly, some people love to fight and bicker and battle, and say "Nu-uh! You can't believe that otherwise you are a son of the devil yourself, crazy fool." In the hearts and minds of people out there in the world sometimes, it's much larger presence of that online though mainly compared to friendly one on one relationships, some people will look down on just cause you smell funny, or whatever etc.
However, does one have faith, in the assurance of things hoped for - (newness of life in and through Christ, prayer to the Father, having relationship and fellowship with Yahava, and His Son Yeshua, the Lord, and reading and growing from a child of God, to a son or daughter of God, walking in faith, not by sight, trusting that he will get you through the rough and bad times, even carry you through the good times as well.
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