Non-Trinitarians, Please Answer This

[amigo de christo]

Jesus is LORD , let the KING be praised .

 

[Matthias]

Jesus is LORD , let the KING be praised .

“A Psalm of David. The LORD (Father) says to my Lord (the Messiah, His Son), ‘Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for your feet [subjugating them into complete submission].’”

(Psalm 110:1, AMP)

“The Lord (God) says to my Lord (the Messiah), ‘Sit at My right hand, until I make Your adversaries Your footstool.’”

(Psalm 110:1, AMPC)

Jesus is “my Lord,” addressed by God in this prophetic psalm. Let God be praised! Let King Messiah also be praised!

 

[keithr]

Scripture says that Jesus and the Father share the same throne in Heaven (Revelation 22:1, 3). If so, how could this infer anything else but that Jesus is God if He is seated together with Him on the same throne?

Consider the Old Testament type Joseph. In the type Pharaoh represents God, Joseph represents Jesus and Egypt represents the whole world. Genesis 41:40-43 (WEB):

(40) You shall be over my house, and according to your word will all my people be ruled. Only in the throne I will be greater than you.”
(41) Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Behold, I have set you over all the land of Egypt.”
(42) Pharaoh took off his signet ring from his hand, and put it on Joseph’s hand, and arrayed him in robes of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck.
(43) He made him ride in the second chariot which he had. They cried before him, “Bow the knee!” He set him over all the land of Egypt.​

Just as Joseph was not Pharaoh, so likewise Jesus is not God YHWH.

 

[APAK]

And yet, to Christ alone, it was given as a Name, rather than merely the power of God among men.

Hey Scott...a little longer post here...

Jesus has many names, and they all convey what Jesus would do or become and who he was regarding his Father and even for and to us.

In Isaiah he was called 'the lord of righteousness,' because his Father would bring him righteousness and then to the chosen. In Isaiah 9:6 he was called 'the wonderful counselor,' 'the mighty warrior,' 'the father of' and leader of new established everlasting creation of believers in the Kingdom. He was called 'the prince of peace.' The Son of the most high, the Son of God, the Son of Man. And of course 'lamb of God' and the 'the word of God.'

If you want to continue, he was also called 'the good shepherd.' 'The horn of salvation.' 'The second and last Adam.'

These names of course have specific meanings.

I do believe that Jesus and Emmanuel/Immanuel together form the pivotal and crucial representation of YHWH in/for the affairs of man, in/through his Son Yahshua, or some similar variant of this spelling. In fact he was not spoken to or addressed with the Greek version of his name 'Jesus' at all.

So let me end with a little rehash of the meaning of Immanuel as it is combined with Yahshua. This subject can get lengthy.

Emmanuel and Yahshua.....

Emmanuel does not mean that the destined Son of God is actually God, the one true Creator at all. One just cannot read the verse as for/from a modern reader's perspective of or for today. His Father is the source of all this work of his Son on the earth and the same today in heaven. All the names of Yahshua are drawn from and identify the source of his Son's identity, his Father, the one true God. Besides, his Father did create him and formed him to be the way he desired him to be.

Emmanuel: Who then is really with the people or 'us,' and then why is he with 'us'? Let me given a short commentary of the word (I)Emmanuel as applied to the Son of God in Matthew 1:23:

Emmanuel or Immanuel is written down in four places of scripture: Isaiah 7:14, 8:8, 10, and in Matthew 1:23.

From the Hebrew language it means in English, 'God (be)(is) with us. Intended primarily for or to a wide audience of people, not just to a specific person.

In the OT, this expression was a cry to God, usually during war, to intervene on behalf of his people and to destroy their enemies. For God to be and stay with his people to bring victory over their enemies.

In fact, the common salutation or greeting to each other today, like 'God be with you' is derived from this expression Immanuel. It was also used for a smaller audience and individuals. The sincere greeting for hope in the assurance that God would be at their side and intervene and protect them from their enemies and against evil.

It is the hope and cry to save or deliver them from despair, fear and death. That YHWH or God shall save them.

Mary's name to be given to her son is more precisely derived from Hebrew, Yahshua, or a close variant of it, and not Jesus. Jesus was never intended to be placed into scripture. It is a Latinized Greek word of no scriptural meaning or value. Joshua would be a valid name, meaning YHWH delivers or saves (to freedom). And he did of course, as his people inhabited the Promised land.

Now there is a direct relationship between Yahshua and Emmanuel.

Yahshua means 'Yah' or God from YHWH and 'Shua' means, to save by bending down low as a helpless and humble servant.

Together then, Yahshua means Yah or God saves by or through his humble lowly servant.

Adding in the meaning of Emmanuel with Yahshua, we get:

Yahshua + Emmanuel = > God shall save his people from death, in and by his humble lowly servant.

Emmanuel thus amplified or provides more detail into the 'called' birth name of Yahshua and his nature.

YHWH was with his people, in his Son, indeed. No one has seen the Father, only the Son. The Father lives in Yahshua, deep in his bosom.

The Son of God executed the will of his Father. He reads and sees the thoughts, expressions and actions of his Father, whilst he was on earth and now in heaven. He is the executioner of his Father's will as the head of the church and soon to be official ruler of the new heaven and new earth.

Emmanuel indeed!

Blessings to you and have a fine day!

 

[Ziggy]

Let's take it one step further:

Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

Jesus is the Master, and the disciple is Joseph.
That's how I see it
Hugs

 

[MatthewG]

I'm having trouble finding out what the non-Trinitarian position is to this question, so I thought I would ask the non-Trinitarians on this forum (I know we have a bunch here):

Scripture says that Jesus and the Father share the same throne in Heaven (Revelation 22:1, 3). If so, how could this infer anything else but that Jesus is God if He is seated together with Him on the same throne? Will not the inhabitants of Heaven worship Him like they do the Father if He is seated on the throne of Almighty God?

Revelation chapter 22 states, “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb...No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will serve Him.” The Greek here reads, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου (the throne of God and of the Lamb)”; two different Persons but only one throne, since “του θρονου” is singular in number.

Thank you for your answers in advance, and God bless
Hidden In Him

Hello hidden in him,

The throne room seat shows one who sits on the throne in revelation 4 and 5, and I believe that is the Lord God Almighty. The Revelation states about From the throne of God - and from the lamb, wouldn’t the Lamb be embolmatic of Jesus when he was on the earth?

Thank you for your time and thoughts, I don’t believe sharing anything from yesterday would have anything to do with your question.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Consider the Old Testament type Joseph. In the type Pharaoh represents God, Joseph represents Jesus and Egypt represents the whole world. Genesis 41:40-43 (WEB):

(40) You shall be over my house, and according to your word will all my people be ruled. Only in the throne I will be greater than you.”
(41) Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Behold, I have set you over all the land of Egypt.”
(42) Pharaoh took off his signet ring from his hand, and put it on Joseph’s hand, and arrayed him in robes of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck.
(43) He made him ride in the second chariot which he had. They cried before him, “Bow the knee!” He set him over all the land of Egypt.​

Just as Joseph was not Pharaoh, so likewise Jesus is not God YHWH.

Hello, Keithr.

We're not discussing here sharing a throne with a man, but of a man being seated on the throne of Almighty God.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hello hidden in him,

The throne room seat shows one who sits on the throne in revelation 4 and 5, and I believe that is the Lord God Almighty. The Revelation states about From the throne of God - and from the lamb, wouldn’t the Lamb be embolmatic of Jesus when he was on the earth?

Thank you for your time and thoughts, I don’t believe sharing anything from yesterday would have anything to do with your question.

Not sure I understand your question. Try and rephrase it and I'll check back in the afternoon and give you a reply.

God bless,
- H

 

[MatthewG]

Lamb would be figurative of Jesus on earth? Remember when Abraham took his Son Isaac, and he told his servants when he was taking him up the mountain "Me and the boy will be back." Isaac along the way, asked his father, we have the wood and fire, but where is the Lamb?" Abraham told his son that God would provide a lamb for them (Genesis 22:8), upon the Angel of God stopping Abraham from killing his son, Abraham saw a goat that was caught (Genesis 22:13) in a thicket and used it as a sacrifice for an offering then and there.

So there wasn't a Lamb yet offered. There are 31 Verses found with the Word Lamb.
[see John 1:29; John 1:36; Acts 8:32; Revelation 5:6, 8, 12, 13; Revelation 6:1,16; Revelation 7:9,10, 14, 17, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:8, 11; Revelation 14:1,4,10; Revelation 15:3; Revelation 17:14; Revelation 19:7, 9, Revelation 21:9, 14, 22, 23, 27; Revelation 22:1,3. 27 Times the word Lamb is mentioned in the Revelation.

So my question is, in Revelation 22:1,3 - Wouldn't the word Lamb be a representation of Jesus Christ and his life lived on earth. I realized once he was glorified he became one with his Father, raised far above any other thing, be it in heaven, on earth, or under the earth. And scripture talks about Yeshua sitting on the throne of his Father (Revelation 3:21) and a point in time where Yeshua would indeed give everything over to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24), once all had been completed.

So that is my question wouldn't the word Lamb be emblematic of his life lived on earth - being the one who would be the successor of King David - who ruled on earth (over Israel) - in which Jesus would be in the same place having been the one to fulfill that role - on earth becoming the King? Pilate wrote (Matthew 27:37) on his board, before or after Jesus had died, that he was the King of the Jews.

Hope this helps in understanding my question.

 

[amadeus]

So, we have this thing called the "Big Bang" theory. Everything just spontaneously flowed from this one point of energy that became time and space and all the material things.

My belief is that God is this, what science calls the Big Bang theory. They just can't admit to a God, because they want to be gods themselves.
anywhoo..

Science says at some point the universe will stop expanding and begin to collapse back in on itself. Kind of like taking in a deep breath and everything gets sucked back to it's original state. The origen of All.

My belief is when we die, our spirit goes back to the origen from which it came.
So if God is on the throne, and Jesus is on the throne, and we will be where they are. Then we will be on the throne as well,
only not as individuals, but as the original.

We shall see him as he is, because we will be him.
Everything flows from God and everything returns to God.

We don't remember our journey here, I don't suppose we'll remember our journey back.
But we have faith that we will return from whence we came.

Or at least I do..

Hugs

Thank you for sharing this sister... I certainly will not argue against it. However the search for His face does continue and perhaps this which will be seen in the face-to-face vision if and when we get to that place.

Give God the glory!

 

[Ziggy]

Thank you for sharing this sister... I certainly will not argue against it. However the search for His face does continue and perhaps this which will be seen in the face-to-face vision if and when we get to that place.

Give God the glory!

Every day we follow in his footsteps the closer and clearer we begin to see his face in the mirror.

Hugs

 

[amadeus]

Every day we follow in his footsteps the closer and clearer we begin to see his face in the mirror.

Hugs

"And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.
And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:22-25

How many touches do we need before we are able to see clearly?

 

[DavidB]

Ok, I enjoyed your scriptures but right here is where we are already in disagreement.

None of the passages you quoted talk about a throne figuratively. All are either talking about the throne of David in Jerusalem or the throne of God in Heaven, both of which should be understood as not spiritual but literal IMO. You appear to be making your argument by extension after this, but I think your premise is flawed from the outset. The question is not simply about "authority" but about a throne; a single throne shared by Two Separate Beings, which suggests that either both are worshipped as God or neither are.

But thank you for the response. I sincerely did not know what the answer was to this passage, so any help I can get is appreciated.

I haven't yet read the rest of the response yet, so maybe there is something else there. Just pointing out where we disagree on the premise.
God bless,
- H

You seem to be seeing the throne in Revelation 22 as a literal elaborate chair that God sits on. Do you think that the Creator actually has a body like ours that would sit in any kind of chair? Is there also a literal river in heaven with literal trees lining it? What kind of fruit
grows in heaven? Looking back at Revelation 19, do you think there is a white horse in heaven? Do you think Jesus literally has a sword hanging out of his mouth? Revelation 1:1 says the vision is given in signs.

 

[ScottA]

Hey Scott...a little longer post here...

Jesus has many names, and they all convey what Jesus would do or become and who he was regarding his Father and even for and to us.

In Isaiah he was called 'the lord of righteousness,' because his Father would bring him righteousness and then to the chosen. In Isaiah 9:6 he was called 'the wonderful counselor,' 'the mighty warrior,' 'the father of' and leader of new established everlasting creation of believers in the Kingdom. He was called 'the prince of peace.' The Son of the most high, the Son of God, the Son of Man. And of course 'lamb of God' and the 'the word of God.'

If you want to continue, he was also called 'the good shepherd.' 'The horn of salvation.' 'The second and last Adam.'

These names of course have specific meanings.

I do believe that Jesus and Emmanuel/Immanuel together form the pivotal and crucial representation of YHWH in/for the affairs of man, in/through his Son Yahshua, or some similar variant of this spelling. In fact he was not spoken to or addressed with the Greek version of his name 'Jesus' at all.

So let me end with a little rehash of the meaning of Immanuel as it is combined with Yahshua. This subject can get lengthy.

Emmanuel and Yahshua.....

Emmanuel does not mean that the destined Son of God is actually God, the one true Creator at all. One just cannot read the verse as for/from a modern reader's perspective of or for today. His Father is the source of all this work of his Son on the earth and the same today in heaven. All the names of Yahshua are drawn from and identify the source of his Son's identity, his Father, the one true God. Besides, his Father did create him and formed him to be the way he desired him to be.

Emmanuel: Who then is really with the people or 'us,' and then why is he with 'us'? Let me given a short commentary of the word (I)Emmanuel as applied to the Son of God in Matthew 1:23:

Emmanuel or Immanuel is written down in four places of scripture: Isaiah 7:14, 8:8, 10, and in Matthew 1:23.

From the Hebrew language it means in English, 'God (be)(is) with us. Intended primarily for or to a wide audience of people, not just to a specific person.

In the OT, this expression was a cry to God, usually during war, to intervene on behalf of his people and to destroy their enemies. For God to be and stay with his people to bring victory over their enemies.

In fact, the common salutation or greeting to each other today, like 'God be with you' is derived from this expression Immanuel. It was also used for a smaller audience and individuals. The sincere greeting for hope in the assurance that God would be at their side and intervene and protect them from their enemies and against evil.

It is the hope and cry to save or deliver them from despair, fear and death. That YHWH or God shall save them.

Mary's name to be given to her son is more precisely derived from Hebrew, Yahshua, or a close variant of it, and not Jesus. Jesus was never intended to be placed into scripture. It is a Latinized Greek word of no scriptural meaning or value. Joshua would be a valid name, meaning YHWH delivers or saves (to freedom). And he did of course, as his people inhabited the Promised land.

Now there is a direct relationship between Yahshua and Emmanuel.

Yahshua means 'Yah' or God from YHWH and 'Shua' means, to save by bending down low as a helpless and humble servant.

Together then, Yahshua means Yah or God saves by or through his humble lowly servant.

Adding in the meaning of Emmanuel with Yahshua, we get:

Yahshua + Emmanuel = > God shall save his people from death, in and by his humble lowly servant.

Emmanuel thus amplified or provides more detail into the 'called' birth name of Yahshua and his nature.

YHWH was with his people, in his Son, indeed. No one has seen the Father, only the Son. The Father lives in Yahshua, deep in his bosom.

The Son of God executed the will of his Father. He reads and sees the thoughts, expressions and actions of his Father, whilst he was on earth and now in heaven. He is the executioner of his Father's will as the head of the church and soon to be official ruler of the new heaven and new earth.

Emmanuel indeed!

Blessings to you and have a fine day!

It is a good study. Thanks!

But are not all these things, of God, by God, and do they not rather define God in all His goodness? Indeed, God has shown Himself in Christ, and made Himself known in all His ways.

How do I love thee? Let me count the ways!

 

[Ziggy]

"And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.
And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:22-25

How many touches do we need before we are able to see clearly?

As many as it takes

Hugs

 

[APAK]

It is a good study. Thanks!

But are not all these things, of God, by God, and do they not rather define God in all His goodness? Indeed, God has shown Himself in Christ, and made Himself known in all His ways.

How do I love thee? Let me count the ways!

Yes I do agree..on point here!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Lamb would be figurative of Jesus on earth? Remember when Abraham took his Son Isaac, and he told his servants when he was taking him up the mountain "Me and the boy will be back." Isaac along the way, asked his father, we have the wood and fire, but where is the Lamb?" Abraham told his son that God would provide a lamb for them (Genesis 22:8), upon the Angel of God stopping Abraham from killing his son, Abraham saw a goat that was caught (Genesis 22:13) in a thicket and used it as a sacrifice for an offering then and there.

So there wasn't a Lamb yet offered. There are 31 Verses found with the Word Lamb.
[see John 1:29; John 1:36; Acts 8:32; Revelation 5:6, 8, 12, 13; Revelation 6:1,16; Revelation 7:9,10, 14, 17, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:8, 11; Revelation 14:1,4,10; Revelation 15:3; Revelation 17:14; Revelation 19:7, 9, Revelation 21:9, 14, 22, 23, 27; Revelation 22:1,3. 27 Times the word Lamb is mentioned in the Revelation.

So my question is, in Revelation 22:1,3 - Wouldn't the word Lamb be a representation of Jesus Christ and his life lived on earth. I realized once he was glorified he became one with his Father, raised far above any other thing, be it in heaven, on earth, or under the earth. And scripture talks about Yeshua sitting on the throne of his Father (Revelation 3:21) and a point in time where Yeshua would indeed give everything over to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24), once all had been completed.

So that is my question wouldn't the word Lamb be emblematic of his life lived on earth - being the one who would be the successor of King David - who ruled on earth (over Israel) - in which Jesus would be in the same place having been the one to fulfill that role - on earth becoming the King? Pilate wrote (Matthew 27:37) on his board, before or after Jesus had died, that he was the King of the Jews.

Hope this helps in understanding my question.

Are you arguing that Jesus is God or no? This position seems to suggest you are.

 

[MatthewG]

I am asking a question about the Lamb.

 

[Hidden In Him]

You seem to be seeing the throne in Revelation 22 as a literal elaborate chair that God sits on. Do you think that the Creator actually has a body like ours that would sit in any kind of chair?

Yes. Scripture says that we are made in His image.

Is there also a literal river in heaven with literal trees lining it?

Yes. It's stated plainly in Revelation 22:1-3.

What kind of fruit
grows in heaven?

V.2 states the Tree of Life bears twelve kinds of fruit. It gives no other details.

Looking back at Revelation 19, do you think there is a white horse in heaven?

Yes.

Do you think Jesus literally has a sword hanging out of his mouth?

This is the only one that's figurative. Paul compared the word of God to a sword in Ephesians 6, and the same analogy is being used in Revelation 21.

You seem to take much of scripture figuratively. There are places where it should be, but you have to be careful about not doing so when a verse or passage should be taken literally.

God bless,
- H

 

[Hidden In Him]

I am asking a question about the Lamb.

Ok, I think you may be wanting to discuss a different theological question than the one I'm trying to focus on in this thread. So maybe we should hold that off for another time. The argument is plausible (though against early church teaching), but not what we're discussing here, and I wanted to stay on the verses in question and the question posed in the OP... though it may be an utter impossibility, LoL.

God bless,
- H