Non-Trinitarians, Please Answer This

[keithr]

We're not discussing here sharing a throne with a men, but of a man being seated on the throne of Almighty God.

Jesus is no longer a man. We will be like him, as he is now, when we (Christians) are resurrected (1 John 3:2), having the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).

As I said, the story of Joseph is a type, pointing forward to the future when God (Pharaoh) will share His throne with His Son Jesus (Joseph), setting Jesus (Joseph) over all of mankind and the spirit beings (over Egypt in the type). It answers your question, explaining how God and Jesus can share a throne, and yet Jesus is NOT God.

 

[Ziggy]

Hello hidden in him,

The throne room seat shows one who sits on the throne in revelation 4 and 5, and I believe that is the Lord God Almighty. The Revelation states about From the throne of God - and from the lamb, wouldn’t the Lamb be embolmatic of Jesus when he was on the earth?

Thank you for your time and thoughts, I don’t believe sharing anything from yesterday would have anything to do with your question.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

hugs

 

[Matthias]

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

hugs

That takes me back to John 1:1-5, 14.

 

[MatthewG]

Ok, I think you may be wanting to discuss a different theological question than the one I'm trying to focus on in this thread. So maybe we should hold that off for another time. The argument is plausible (though against early church teaching), but not what we're discussing here, and I wanted to stay on the verses in question and the question posed in the OP... though it may be an utter impossibility, LoL.

God bless,
- H

Okay then. Thank you for at least considering.

 

[MatthewG]

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

hugs

You know that reminds of what Jesus said about himself in John 8, ma'am.

John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

 

[ScottA]

Jesus is no longer a man. We will be like him, as he is now, when we (Christians) are resurrected (1 John 3:2), having the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).

As I said, the story of Joseph is a type, pointing forward to the future when God (Pharaoh) will share His throne with His Son Jesus (Joseph), setting Jesus (Joseph) over all of mankind and the spirit beings (over Egypt in the type). It answers your question, explaining how God and Jesus can share a throne, and yet Jesus is NOT God.

To say that "Jesus is no longer a man." Then say "Jesus is NOT God." is a contradiction.

The matter is better understood as Jesus revealed in His prayer, saying "that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me." John 17:22 Which is to say as "You" [Father], meaning, "We" "may be" as "God"--"One."

 

[amadeus]

As many as it takes

Hugs

You certainly got that right!

 

[keithr]

To say that "Jesus is no longer a man." Then say "Jesus is NOT God." is a contradiction.

No it's not! The angels in the days of Noah took on the form of a man but they are no longer a man - and they are not God. Likewise we when we are resurrected we have the promise of God giving us an immortal spirit being nature, just like He gave to Jesus, but that does not mean we will become God. That is not at all logical!

Many might consider Jesus a god, but there is only one Almighty God - YHWH. Just because YHWH decided to let Jesus reign as king of His Kingdom and share His throne (just as in the type Pharaoh let Joseph reign as king and share his throne) does not mean that Jesus somehow then becomes God, or that God and Jesus merge into a multi-body being, or some such other ludicrous non-Biblical fantasy!

It is clear (when you remove Trinity coloured blinkers) that God and Jesus are two different beings. There is no record in the Bible of any being that has more than one body and personality. Jesus is clearly stated many times to be God's only begotten son. Jesus will sit on God's throne for a while, but when he has perfected the Kingdom he then turns it over to God, and it becomes God's perfect Kingdom - 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (WEB):

(24) Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power.

[And therefore it is evident that God and Jesus are seperate beings.]​

(25) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
(26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
(27) For, “He put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when he says, “All things are put in subjection”, it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him.

[And therefore it is evident that God and Jesus are seperate beings.]​

(28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.

[And therefore it is evident that God and Jesus are seperate beings.]​

Here's yet another example of God being declared to be Jesus' God and Father (and therefore it is evident that God and Jesus are seperate beings):

Revelation 1:5-6 (WEB):

(5) and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us, and washed us from our sins by his blood;
(6) and he made us to be a Kingdom, priests to his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.​

There is lots of plain evidence like this in the Bible, but those brainwashed into believing the Trinity lie just ignore the evidence in plain sight.

 

[Taken]

Non-Trinitarians, Please Answer This
OP ^

I can not answer for what any other believes.

I believe God IS;
Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent.

I believe God reveals His power, knowledge, presence according to His order and way.

I believe God has revealed particular;
Names, Titles, Descriptions exclusively applicable to Him,
which reveals Where He is, What particular thing He is doing When and Why.

I believe ManKIND, in attempts to teach about God, get off on a wayward, secular, carnal minded teaching, paths that which from the get go is confusing to a beginner and quite frankly carries over to the advanced student and debates over WHO God IS.

Worst IMO, manKINDS teaching tool, is the “trinity sketch with words” and “artworks of statues and paintings”.

God IS, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent.

God IN Heaven, God ON Earth, God IN Hell; Omnipresent!
Called by whatever He says; Omniscient!
IS all Power wherever He is: Omnipotent!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[ScottA]

No it's not! The angels in the days of Noah that took on the form of a man but they are no longer a man - and they are not God. Likewise we when we are resurrected we have the promise of God giving us an immortal spirit being nature, just like He gave to Jesus, but that does not mean we will become God. That is not at all logical!

Many might consider Jesus a god, but there is only one Almighty God - YHWH. Just because YHWH decided to let Jesus reign as king of His Kingdom and share His throne (just as in the type Pharaoh let Joseph reign as king and share his throne) does not mean that Jesus somehow then becomes God, or that God and Jesus merge into a multi-body being, or some such other ludicrous non-Biblical fantasy!

It is clear (when you remove Trinity coloured blinkers) that God and Jesus are two different beings. There is no record in the Bible of any being that has more than one body and personality. Jesus is clearly stated many times to be God's only begotten son. Jesus will sit on God's throne for a while, but when he has perfected the Kingdom he then turns it over to God, and it becomes God's perfect Kingdom - 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (WEB):

(24) Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power.

[And therefore it is evident that God and Jesus are seperate beings.]​

(25) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
(26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
(27) For, “He put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when he says, “All things are put in subjection”, it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him.

[And therefore it is evident that God and Jesus are seperate beings.]​

(28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.

[And therefore it is evident that God and Jesus are seperate beings.]​

Here's yet another example of God being declared to be Jesus' God and Father (and therefore it is evident that God and Jesus are seperate beings):

Revelation 1:5-6 (WEB):

(5) and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us, and washed us from our sins by his blood;
(6) and he made us to be a Kingdom, priests to his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.​

There is lots of plain evidence like this in the Bible, but those brainwashed into believing the Trinity lie just ignore the evidence in plain sight.

You have not taken the truth of Jesus's prayer of Him, us, and the Father as being ONE in the end, to heart.

 

[bbyrd009]

Listen, don't take offense, but I'm really only looking for an answer to the specific question posed in the OP rather than another lengthy debate on the Trinity

ok then, in that case I said “you are Elohim,” —will you expect to be worshipped?—and there are no “inhabitants of heaven” in the way you infer (There is only One Immortal, Who lives alone in unapproachable light) so your questions are moot, imo

 

[keithr]

You have not taken the truth of Jesus's prayer of Him, us, and the Father as being ONE in the end, to heart.

How can you tell, since I did not mention or comment on that part of your post? I was only responding to your comment 'To say that "Jesus is no longer a man." Then say "Jesus is NOT God." is a contradiction.'

 

[ScottA]

How can you tell, since I did not mention or comment on that part of your post? I was only responding to your comment 'To say that "Jesus is no longer a man." Then say "Jesus is NOT God." is a contradiction.'

Okay, this is what I was referring to:

No it's not! The angels in the days of Noah took on the form of a man but they are no longer a man - and they are not God. Likewise we when we are resurrected we have the promise of God giving us an immortal spirit being nature, just like He gave to Jesus, but that does not mean we will become God. That is not at all logical!

Which, if you consider and take to heart Jesus' prayer to the Father...would not result in a "spirit being" like the "angels", but would rather result in Oneness with God.

 

[keithr]

Okay, this is what I was referring to:
Which, if you consider and take to heart Jesus' prayer to the Father...would not result in a "spirit being" like the "angels", but would rather result in Oneness with God.

You're avoiding the issue. Jesus no longer being a man does not mean that Jesus is God. Being one with God does not mean that you are God.

When God resurrects us, we will become like Jesus is now (we will not be human). 1 John 3:2 (WEB):

(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.​

We will no longer be human, but that does not mean that we wil be God. Likewise, Jesus is no longer human, but that does not mean that he is God.

 

[BeyondET]

Bench seat throne maybe jk,
but I do wonder all the time Jesus went off and talked or prayed to the Father. was He talking to Himself or Holy Spirit or something else that is bit to grasp.
Unless one is a octopus with its 9 brains, but that is quite amazing animal God created.

 

[Matthias]

Bench seat throne maybe jk,
but I do wonder all the time Jesus went off and talked or prayed to the Father. was He talking to Himself or Holy Spirit or something else that is bit to grasp.
Unless one is a octopus with its 9 brains, but that is quite amazing animal God created.

Welcome to the forums.

Jesus wasn’t talking to himself. He was talking to his God.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Not all anti-trinitarians reject the idea that Jesus is God though. On a wider scope, anti-trinitarians reject the premise that Jesus is His Father's equal and the Holy Spirit is a Person that is equal to the Father and Christ. On an individual basis however, an anti-trinitarian view will vary from person to person since they

(a) Reject the idea of Jesus as being God

or

(b) Believe that Jesus is a God that exists as having less authority and status than the Father

It's really not that simple to lump all anti-trinitarians in the same boat as being people that reject the idea that Jesus is God.

Yes, His throne will come down to us! New Jerusalem, new earth...new LIFE amen!

Jesus was referring to the throne that He will sit on during the Millennium. Read. Luk. 1:32 where Gabriel specifically tells Mary that Jesus will sit on David's throne. That throne is already here on this planet. God specifically promised David that he will always have a descendant to rule from his throne on Earth.

 

[ScottA]

You're avoiding the issue. Jesus no longer being a man does not mean that Jesus is God. Being one with God does not mean that you are God.

When God resurrects us, we will become like Jesus is now (we will not be human). 1 John 3:2 (WEB):

(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.​

We will no longer be human, but that does not mean that we wil be God. Likewise, Jesus is no longer human, but that does not mean that he is God.

Sorry. Were not communicating. Here is Jesus' prayer which defines the Oneness that I was referring to, that you apparently do not consider the kind of oneness that makes Jesus God:

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.” John 17:20-26
​

He does not say "one with God", but rather that they (and we) "are one" and "perfect", just as [only] God is perfect. As He also said, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48

Only God is "perfect."

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'm having trouble finding out what the non-Trinitarian position is to this question, so I thought I would ask the non-Trinitarians on this forum (I know we have a bunch here):

Scripture says that Jesus and the Father share the same throne in Heaven (Revelation 22:1, 3). If so, how could this infer anything else but that Jesus is God if He is seated together with Him on the same throne? Will not the inhabitants of Heaven worship Him like they do the Father if He is seated on the throne of Almighty God?

Revelation chapter 22 states, “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb...No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will serve Him.” The Greek here reads, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου (the throne of God and of the Lamb)”; two different Persons but only one throne, since “του θρονου” is singular in number.

Thank you for your answers in advance, and God bless
Hidden In Him

Now that I have revealed that I am not a Trinitarian, I suppose I might as well answer your post. I believe the Bible teaches us that God created Jesus to represent him in this reality. Consider John 1:18 "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." The term "explained" comes from the Greek word "exegesis." Jesus is the exegesis of God, meaning, Jesus is the interpretation, in human form, of the God we can't see.

A novelist is unable to speak to his characters directly, so if he or she wants to say something within the story, the author creates a character within the story to act like and speak like the author. Likewise God created a human being to act like, think like, speak like him. For all intents and purposes, Jesus is God. As Jesus said to Philip, John 14:9, "The one who has seen me has seen the father."

Paul described Jesus as "characteristic of God's actual nature" Hebrews 1:3. The term "character" comes from the printing process whereby a metal image is made of the person or lettering, which is stamped into clay or on paper. The term "substance" refers to the foundation of a building and by extension it refers to the "real, actual, essence" of a thing. Jesus is a human being, born to the virgin Mary, who has the exact essence of God printed onto him so that for all practical purposes, he perfectly explains God to us because he acts like God would act, he says what God would say, he loves perfectly as God would.

Jesus would never be seen "sitting" with God on his throne. God can't be seen as John said. The throne belongs to God, which is why Jesus is seen sitting there. Jesus will always be the visible image of the God we can't see.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Jesus would never be seen "sitting" with God on his throne. God can't be seen as John said. The throne belongs to God, which is why Jesus is seen sitting there. Jesus will always be the visible image of the God we can't see.

Greetings, brother.

I think John's reference was to those alive on earth, as opposed to those in Heaven and/or those taken up in spirit into Heaven or allowed to see into Heaven from the earth. Ezekiel had a very extensive vision of the throne room of God, so it would be a mistake to say no one has ever seen God in the absolute sense of the word. The meaning, rather, is that God the Father has never manifested Himself in full on the earth. But those in Heaven very well appear to be able to see the Lord Jesus Christ. Even Stephen was allowed to see the Son seated at the right hand of God just before he was stoned to death.

I appreciate the response, but I think you are spiritualizing too much in this instance.

God bless,
- H