Nondenominational Christianity

[Marymog]

Sorry. What I meant simply is that unity in any religion is not the criterion by which to determine whether it is true or false.

Thank you. I better understand now.

Jesus prayed that all of us may be one so that the world may believe that you have sent me. Paul appealed to his hearers that all of you be in agreement and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same purpose. I could go on and on with more but you get the picture.

If unity (agreement about the interpretation of Scripture and what it takes to be saved) "is not the criterion on which to determine whether it is true or false" what is the criterion?

Curious Mary

 

[CoreIssue]

Thank you. I better understand now.

Jesus prayed that all of us may be one so that the world may believe that you have sent me. Paul appealed to his hearers that all of you be in agreement and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same purpose. I could go on and on with more but you get the picture.

If unity (agreement about the interpretation of Scripture and what it takes to be saved) "is not the criterion on which to determine whether it is true or false" what is the criterion?

Curious Mary

I cannot resist throwing in a comment here.

Mormons and Jehovah witness, in example, are United. By your logic does that make them true?

We are saved as individuals, not as groups.

Sorry for interrupting your conversation.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Jesus prayed that all of us may be one so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We know if the Son prayed for it then God will give it to the Son. John 15:16-17 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. [17] These things I command you, that ye love one another.

 

[CoreIssue]

We know if the Son prayed for it then God will give it to the Son. John 15:16-17 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. [17] These things I command you, that ye love one another.

No. A prayer is a request, not an order or demand.

Christ asked the father to take away the cup of his death on the cross, but the father didn't.

Asking it will be given does not mean it will be given immediately or even in this lifetime.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No. A prayer is a request, not an order or demand.

Christ asked the father to take away the cup of his death on the cross, but the father didn't.

Asking it will be given does not mean it will be given immediately or even in this lifetime.

“...that they should bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain.” In this lifetime ...that they should bring forth fruit and their fruit should remain. What fruit remains: Galatians 5:22-23
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


Ephesians 5:9-10
[9] (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth[10] Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. —Isaiah 61:2-3
[2] To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord , and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; [3] To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord , that he might be glorified.


Acts 2:1
[1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Acts 2:2
[2] And suddenly (quickly)there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

 

[CoreIssue]

“...that they should bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain.” In this lifetime ...that they should bring forth fruit and their fruit should remain. What fruit remains: Galatians 5:22-23
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


Ephesians 5:9-10
[9] (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth[10] Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. —Isaiah 61:2-3
[2] To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord , and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; [3] To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord , that he might be glorified.

And your point. No one is denying some answers are immediate.

But you're stuck with the realization that either some prayers are not answer or not answer yet.
Acts 2:1
[1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Acts 2:2
[2] And suddenly (quickly)there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

2 Corinthians 1:20-21
[20] For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. [21] Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

“...unto the glory of God by us.”

John 17:20-21
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; [21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

You don’t believe The prayer the Son of “that they may be all one...” was answered?

 

[CoreIssue]

2 Corinthians 1:20-21
[20] For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. [21] Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

“...unto the glory of God by us.”

John 17:20-21
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; [21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

You don’t believe The prayer the Son of “that they may be all one...” was answered?

I repeat, it was a requests, not a command.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I repeat, it was a requests, not a command.

Ok. It was a request. not a command.

 

[Marymog]

The keys of the kingdom were in fact the Gospel preached first to the Jews at Pentecost and then to the Gentiles gathered with Cornelius. It is the Gospel itself which is the key which opens the door to the Kingdom of God, since Peter calls the Gospel the incorruptible seed for the New Birth (1 Pet 1:23-25).

Nope....you are completely and utterly wrong. No, none, zero, nada mention of keys at Pentecost. Please read Isaiah 22 for the background on the keys Jesus spoke of. Since Jesus was speaking to Jews they knew the importance of the keys and they knew exactly what he meant.

In the sermon at Pentecost Peter talks about how David was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne. Jesus is of the House of David, Jesus is one of his descendants. Jesus had the keys to the house of David and he passed them to Peter.

Incorruptible seed for the New Birth does not equal keys and has NOTHING to do with keys....please stop twisting scripture.

So I ask you again Enoch: After Peter died who was the next rock in the foundation of The Church? To whom did those keys get passed onto Enoch?

Bible study Mary

 

[CoreIssue]

Nope....you are completely and utterly wrong. No, none, zero, nada mention of keys at Pentecost. Please read Isaiah 22 for the background on the keys Jesus spoke of. Since Jesus was speaking to Jews they knew the importance of the keys and they knew exactly what he meant.

In the sermon at Pentecost Peter talks about how David was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne. Jesus is of the House of David, Jesus is one of his descendants. Jesus had the keys to the house of David and he passed them to Peter.

Incorruptible seed for the New Birth does not equal keys and has NOTHING to do with keys....please stop twisting scripture.

So I ask you again Enoch: After Peter died who was the next rock in the foundation of The Church? To whom did those keys get passed onto Enoch?

Bible study Mary

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 2807 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
kleivß from (2808)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Kleis 3:744,439
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
klice Noun Feminine
Definition

1. a key
   1. since the keeper of the keys has the power to open and to shut
   2. metaph. in the NT to denote power and authority of various kinds

Christ did not pass the keys to the house of David to Peter. That is replacement theology.

There was no next rock. The church was built, on Jesus, Petra, the eternal rock.

 

[Marymog]

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 2807 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
kleivß from (2808)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Kleis 3:744,439
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
klice Noun Feminine
Definition

1. a key
   1. since the keeper of the keys has the power to open and to shut
   2. metaph. in the NT to denote power and authority of various kinds

Christ did not pass the keys to the house of David to Peter. That is replacement theology.

There was no next rock. The church was built, on Jesus, Petra, the eternal rock.

If it wasn't the key to the house of David, what key was it? Oh, wait. We already know. It was the keys to the kingdom of Heaven. Jesus, while on earth, had the keys to the kingdom of heaven. He then gave them to Peter. That seems pretty dang significant.

At least we can agree that the key Jesus gave to Peter denotes power and authority. Soooooo what power and authority did Jesus pass to Peter?

Bible study Mary

 

[Marymog]

I cannot resist throwing in a comment here.

Mormons and Jehovah witness, in example, are United. By your logic does that make them true?

We are saved as individuals, not as groups.

Sorry for interrupting your conversation.

Thank you. I appreciate your desire to learn.

Scripture says that there will be false teachers amongst us who will deceive us and lie to us. They will preach to us the OPPOSITE of the Truth. How do we know who is lying to us unless we have someone to give us the Truth? We have to know what the Truth is before we can know what a lie is....Correct?

Who does scripture say is the pillar and foundation of Truth? Where does scripture tell us to go if we have a disagreement with each other about who is right/wrong in the Truth?

I am not sure what you mean by "We are saved as individuals, not as groups." We are individually responsible for our own salvation. We choose to sin or not to sin. The Church is responsible for teaching you the Truth so you can obtain that salvation.

Mary

 

[CoreIssue]

If it wasn't the key to the house of David, what key was it? Oh, wait. We already know. It was the keys to the kingdom of Heaven. Jesus, while on earth, had the keys to the kingdom of heaven. He then gave them to Peter. That seems pretty dang significant.

At least we can agree that the key Jesus gave to Peter denotes power and authority. Soooooo what power and authority did Jesus pass to Peter?

Bible study Mary

New Testament answers that. They preached the gospel, they healed, they prophesied, they spoke in tongues, they taught, they guided, they shook off snakebites and more.

He did not give the key to Peter alone. He gave it to all the apostles. Peter is Petros and Christ is Petra. The Archstone is Petra. The foundation is Petra. The cornerstone is Petra. In the OT the rock that shatters the statue of Daniel is Petra. In revelations the 144,000 are guarded in Petra for 3 1/2 years.

Peter was not the first Bishop of Rome. Peter never went to Rome. Peter was never comfortable preaching to Gentiles, so he confined himself to Jews.

Paul is a dominant figure in the NT, not Peter.

The Roman Catholic Church was established by Constantine, who called himself Christian but was a pagan who thought the sun was the son of God.

You need to study history other than what the Catholics mean to you, which is a lie.

 

[Marymog]

He did not give the key to Peter alone. He gave it to all the apostles.

Nope....wrong again. Read scripture.

Mary

 

[CoreIssue]

Nope....wrong again. Read scripture.

Mary

I have. You are quoting Catholic doctrine, not the Bible.

 

[FHII]

Mary[/QUOTE]

I now understand what you are saying. Even though he came up with that date in his commentary on Daniel he didn't come up with that date by using Daniel.

Right! Exactly! But how did he? Its an important question. More important (depending on the answer, with the answer being unknown) is why Constantine further endorsed it. Why? Because it would answer the concern as to whether there were pagan influences involved.

I NEVER said that Hippolytus actually figured out "the" date......READ WHAT I SAID IN CONTEXT to the entire conversation. Read post #183 AGAIN.

Really? From post #180.

In Hippolytus commentary on Daniel he makes it clear HOW he came to that date. It is NOT my job to explain HIS reasoning.

He doesn't make it clear. I came into this never having read his work... But now I have. Mary... READ YOUR OWN REFERNCES

So now you have me arguing the discussuon! You are good at your craft!

The FACT is there were several "birthday" dates floating around at the time of Hippolytus.

Yes, I have estabished that.

I have already made it VERY CLEAR WHY I quoted Hippolytus.

Which as far as I can see was a poor attempt to show Constantine wasn't picking the date with pagan influences, which fails especially when church fathers said birthday celebrations qere pagan.

You have ZERO evidence that Hippolytus had a pagan influence when picking that date.

Not necessarily so... I have those who believe he picked it because of believing Jewish fables. Granted, I already debunked that(here I am helping you) but there is still the reasoning even though he never said it. And you have zero evidence that he picked it otherwise.

The evidence is he DID NOT have a pagan influence sooooo PLEASE stop with you silly word games.

Really? Present that evidence!

 

[mjrhealth]

The Church is responsible for teaching you the Truth so you can obtain that salvation.

oh so blinded by there false doctrines and religion

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

God doesnt need your religion, we all just need Christ it is for so many that Christ is not sufficient for them, it is there choice like you to follow after men and not Christ.

 

[Marymog]

I have. You are quoting Catholic doctrine, not the Bible.

Jesus said to Peter in Matthew 16:19, I will give YOU the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever YOU bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Please dear friend, show me where he said this to another Apostle.

Patient Mary

 

[Marymog]

Mary

Right! Exactly! But how did he? Its an important question. More important (depending on the answer, with the answer being unknown) is why Constantine further endorsed it. Why? Because it would answer the concern as to whether there were pagan influences involved.[/QUOTE]
Do you know of any documented evidence that Constantine officially declared December 25th as the birthday or day to celebrate the birth of Christ??? To the best of my knowledge there is no, none, zilch nada record of Constantine officially declaring December 25th as the day to celebrate. If you know of a document please share that information with me.

In the Church many dates had been proposed, debated and generally recognized, however, prior to Constantine's legalization of Christianity no universal date or even formal celebration of Christmas is found. Origen, St. Irenaeus, and Tertullian, do not include Christmas or its date on their lists of feasts and celebrations. After the legalization of Christianity the Church established universal dates for feasts to organize their public celebration. The Church, to this day, does not officially say it is his birth date. It just celebrates it on that day due to tradition.

Pope Julius I formalized Natalis Christi in 350 AD and the selection of this feast for this day was neither sudden nor arbitrary since December 25th had already enjoyed preeminence among Christians as the birthday of Christ long before this papal decree.

Was their pagan influence's involved? Maybe, maybe not. The evidence is not sufficient to give a definite yes. There is NO historical record saying that it was chosen for pagan reasons.

Can you show me WHEN this "pagan" theory first started? Who first wrote about it or proposed it??? The earliest writing I can find that suggest this theory is in “The Golden Bough,” a highly influential 19th-century comparative study of religion and mythology. It was written by anthropologist James George Frazer and published in 1890.

Historical Mary