Nondenominational Christianity

[Marymog]

46 years to one woman.

I know about the rings. Ownership of wife according to some ancient customs. But I wear one as well.

Interestingly, in the OT, Israel, wife of God, also wore nose rings.

Soooo it's ok for you to incorporate a pagan practice into your life but if I do it I am.....What?

Curious Mary

PS....God created the summer solstice. The pagans don't own it....He does. If He chooses to turn it into a birthday celebration a bring people to Christianity then I am all for it. How about you????

 

[Marymog]

If you read carefully you will see that's simply not true. I did not imply that you thought he was credible. Read carefully and you will see I was speaking of a former conversation in which I don't recall your involvement..



He was primarily a theologian... True, but was giving historical accounts and practicing as a historian. As you noted he was a chronologer or something.


Did you speak about what he wrote and was what he wrote a historical event? Do you think he was right? Again, Wasn't implying it to you. But since you brought it up... What do you think?



Umm... I discussed what he wrote, therefore why would I debunk the fact that he wrote it when I acknowledged and discussed what he wrote? That's silly.



He was. I got it from wikipedia. Wikipedia called him one of the most important theologians of the 3rd century and then comments that he wrote on historical events. Even you noted his work historical disciplines.




I listed them for you. Didn't you see them? 1. Believing that March 25th is when God created the World; and 2. Believing that prophets or religious figures were conceived on the same date as their death. Do you believe that is true? I don't, thus they are fables. Moreover, many note they are customary Jewish beliefs. THAT part I might have to retract because I can't find any evidence that they are beliefs any Jews ever had. They may be Jewish beliefs that Christians made up to back their goofy theories (it's happened before).

Hippolytus believed that Jesus was born on December 25th based on Turtellian's believe that he was Crucified on March 25th. He then noted that the Jews believed that earth was created on a March 25th and that the Jews also believed that Prophets and Important religious figures were conceived on the same date they died. He then added a perfect 9 month pregnancy and thus we come up with December 25th... And it's all hogwash!

The pagan connection is looking a lot more rreasonable in light of that... Or maybe we should stop blaming the poor Jews and Pagans. Why steal their false beliefs when we can invent our own?

As for your link... It didn't work. But if its what I think it is, it seems the bulk of his conversation (or perhaps a commentary on it) concerning Christmas is in Appendix I, which is not iincluded... If its what I think. Did you read it?

Added:
I just had a look at The Commentary on Daniel. Hippolytus mentions Dec 25th in book 4:23.3. Very short paragraph with no reasoning behind the date. So I happily retract what I said about him picking the date based on Turtilluan's work or "Jewish fables". He doesn't give a reason. I could've edited out that part from my post, but I thought it better to let the post stay intact and update it.

However, that still may be the reason. Please have a look at this article:

Is the “integral age” theory an apologetics myth? 9 things to know and share

In conclusion:
1. Absolutely Hippolytus named a date before Constantine made it official. Clement of Alexandria talked about it as well (though didn't support it). Never denied that.
2. The Integral age theory as well as the beginning of the world theory aren't listed as reasons by Hippolytus. These are theories going around that I have yet to see in writings.
3. Given that, I still fail to see any other reasonable theory as to why the date of Dec 25th was picked.... By Constantine or Hippolytus. Given that, and until I see contrary, I have to hold that it was picked for one of those 3 reasons (integral age, creation of the world being March 25 or a merging with pagan holidays).
4. Concerning pagan influence: you really have to be blind not to see such in the modern observation of Christmas. Furthermore, it very well could be a reason Constintine picked the date. Hippolytus picked a date that just happened to coincide with not just one but a few different pagan celebrations ( for example the bith of Mithra). So it seemed like a win-win move by an Emporer who cared as much or more about political stability as he did for religion.

I NEVER used the word "credible" when referring to Hippolytus in my original post. You then respond to me and said you have recently been in a discussion about "credible" historians " further saying, "That doesn't mean I would call him credible" further saying "His other work may be credible, but this isn't." Sooooo when you use the word "credible" three times in a response to me can you now see how I inferred that as you IMPLYING something?????

Here is the link to Wikipedia where you allege that there are comments that he wrote on historical events. Please quote the part from this link giving those "comments". I can't find what you allege:

Hippolytus of Rome - Wikipedia

Thank you for your retraction.

Mary

 

[CoreIssue]

Soooo it's ok for you to incorporate a pagan practice into your life but if I do it I am.....What?

Curious Mary

PS....God created the summer solstice. The pagans don't own it....He does. If He chooses to turn it into a birthday celebration a bring people to Christianity then I am all for it. How about you????

But he didn't, Catholics did.

 

[Marymog]

But he didn't, Catholics did.

Ok....soooo by the authority of The Church Christmas is now celebrated on December 25th. Does Matthew 18:18 play into this in anyway????


You didn't answer my question silly boy: It's ok for you to incorporate a pagan practice into your life but if I do it I am.....What?

I will go a step further........We know it makes you a hypocrite......what does it make me???

Patient Mary

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The show with The Grinch that stole Christmas is a great, as it proves what Christmas is truly all about, the Grinch got the message, you know.

Christmas is not about giving gifts.

Santa has nothing to do with Christmas.

 

[FHII]

I NEVER used the word "credible" when referring to Hippolytus in my original post. You then respond to me and said you have recently been in a discussion about "credible" historians " further saying, "That doesn't mean I would call him credible" further saying "His other work may be credible, but this isn't." Sooooo when you use the word "credible" three times in a response to me can you now see how I inferred that as you IMPLYING something?????

Here is the link to Wikipedia where you allege that there are comments that he wrote on historical events. Please quote the part from this link giving those "comments". I can't find what you allege:

Hippolytus of Rome - Wikipedia

Thank you for your retraction.

Mary

You are debating the discussion, not discussing what its about.

 

[Marymog]

You are debating the discussion, not discussing what its about.

Hey, dodge ball....

Can you show me where Wikipedia says what you allege?

Yes or No???

Patient Mary

 

[Helen]

@Marymog

I just have to say that I LOVE your new avatar picture , how true!!

 

[FHII]

Hey, dodge ball....

Can you show me where Wikipedia says what you allege?

Yes or No???

Patient Mary

Yea, I can... But again you still are missing the main point and arguing about the discussion, not what the discussion is about. He could be a cartoonist for all I care.

Have you even read his work? Or just qikipedia?

 

[Marymog]

Yea, I can...

OK......Show me....I can't find what you allege.

Patient Mary

 

[FHII]

OK......Show me....I can't find what you allege.

Patient Mary

The funny thing is I just reread all our exchange... I already have! And you are still arguing about the discussion and not engagi g what the discussion is about.

I also found alot of questions you have dodged.

So here is the pertinent question: Hippolytus picked Dec 25th as Jesus' birth date. Why? I have seen 3 theories (actually gave references for two of them). 1. Paganism. 2. March 25th is the day the world is created. 3. Prophets were conceived on the same date they would die.

Which do you believe?

 

[Marymog]

The funny thing is I just reread all our exchange... I already have! And you are still arguing about the discussion and not engagi g what the discussion is about.

Nope..... You didn't. Stop playing games.

3rd try: Here is the link to Wikipedia where you allege that there are comments that he wrote on historical events. Please quote the part from this link giving those "comments". I can't find what you allege:

Hippolytus of Rome - Wikipedia

Patient Mary

 

[FHII]

Nope..... You didn't. Stop playing games.

Mary, I am not going to embarrass you. But yes I have and I even have YOU as a witness. I have what YOU wrote as proof. Go back and read.

Marymog... Do not bother me any longer with this drivel. I have gave you the pertinent questions. Either answer them or leave me alone.

 

[Marymog]

Mary, I am not going to embarrass you. But yes I have and I even have YOU as a witness. I have what YOU wrote as proof. Go back and read.

Marymog... Do not bother me any longer with this drivel. I have gave you the pertinent questions. Either answer them or leave me alone.

That's what I thought.....You can't even back up your own allegations......

Please.....embarrass me....I look forward to it. If I am wrong I will apologize.....as I always do.

I never said it wasn't there.....I said I CAN'T FIND IT!!!

4th Try: Here is the link to Wikipedia where you allege that there are comments that he wrote on historical events. Please quote the part from this link giving those "comments". I can't find what you allege:

Hippolytus of Rome - Wikipedia

Patient Mary

 

[FHII]

That's what I thought.....You can't even back up your own allegations......

Please.....embarrass me....I look forward to it. If I am wrong I will apologize.....as I always do.

I never said it wasn't there.....I said I CAN'T FIND IT!!!

4th Try: Here is the link to Wikipedia where you allege that there are comments that he wrote on historical events. Please quote the part from this link giving those "comments". I can't find what you allege:

Hippolytus of Rome - Wikipedia

Patient Mary

Marymog... Do not bother me any longer with this drivel. I have gave you the pertinent questions. Either answer them or leave me alone.

 

[Marymog]

Marymog... Do not bother me any longer with this drivel. I have gave you the pertinent questions. Either answer them or leave me alone.

No, you didn't give me squat.... as they say.....whoever "they" are.....

If it makes you feel better to pretend you gave evidence of your allegation then pretend on.

You must admit. I was very patient with you....I gave you four chances to give your evidence. You failed.

See ya at the next debate.......Mary

 

[FHII]

No, you didn't give me squat.... as they say.....whoever "they" are.....

If it makes you feel better to pretend you gave evidence of your allegation then pretend on.

You must admit. I was very patient with you....I gave you four chances to give your evidence. You failed.

See ya at the next debate.......Mary

Yet another dodge...

 

[Marymog]

Yet another dodge...

Wow.....now you are just coming out and telling me your dodging me. First time anyone has blatantly admitted they are dodging me.

OK.....Truce. You refuse to give your evidence and I refuse to answer you until you give your evidence....stalemate!!!

It all comes full circle. Hippolytus was the first to mention December 25th as Jesus birthday HUNDREDS of years before Constantine “enforced” it as a nod to the “pagans”.

Mary

 

[FHII]

Hippolytus was the first to mention December 25th as Jesus birthday HUNDREDS of years before Constantine “enforced” it as a nod to the “pagans”.

You are right on all these accounts. I for one never said otherwise. Hippolytus did name the date. True. It was before Constantine enforced it. True. It was enforced for Pagan reasons... Well I agree with you but it is just a theory. Nonetheless I agree with your thinking that paganism played a part.

Again... Why did Hippolytus pick the date to begin with? If you are going to say after analyzing the book of Daniel, please explain his reasoning. (Beware: that would require actually reading it as you probably cand wikipedia your way through the answer).

 

[Marymog]

You are right on all these accounts. I for one never said otherwise. Hippolytus did name the date. True. It was before Constantine enforced it. True. It was enforced for Pagan reasons... Well I agree with you but it is just a theory. Nonetheless I agree with your thinking that paganism played a part.

Again... Why did Hippolytus pick the date to begin with? If you are going to say after analyzing the book of Daniel, please explain his reasoning. (Beware: that would require actually reading it as you probably cand wikipedia your way through the answer).

Let me be clear: I DO NOT think December 25th was “enforced” (chosen) for pagan reasons or paganism played a part. I used the word “enforced” with quotes to emphasize what OTHERS think, not what I think. I realize my wording on this was confusing so I hope this clears it up.

In Hippolytus commentary on Daniel he makes it clear HOW he came to that date. It is NOT my job to explain HIS reasoning. I was only merely stateing a FACT and the FACT is that Hippolytus concluded December 25th HUNDREDS of years BEFORE Constantine. I don’t care how he came to that conclusion I am only repeating what he said. If you care then by all means research it.

Mary