Nondenominational Christianity

[CoreIssue]

Around 204AD it was written by Hippolytus of Rome that “the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, was eight days before the Kalends of January, the fourth day [i.e., Wednesday], while Augustus was in his forty-second year in his commentary on Daniel 4:23:3. The Kalends was the first day of the month. Eight days before January 1 is December 25.

Not what the Bible says.

 

[Marymog]

Actually, 8 days before January 1 is December 24. Also, 204 years was plenty of time for the false belief that Messiah was born on December 25 to creep in.

The theory is that Constantine, in the 4th century, implemented December 25th as Jesus birthday. That would have been 200+ years AFTER Hippolytus.

Historical Mary

 

[Marymog]

Not what the Bible says.

Since the Bible doesn’t say WHEN his birthday is what is wrong with celebrating it on December 25th? Or are you just anti-Birthday?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Actually, 8 days before January 1 is December 24. Also, 204 years was plenty of time for the false belief that Messiah was born on December 25 to creep in.

If December 25th is a “false belief” then you must know when he was born?

Curious Mary

 

[CoreIssue]

If December 25th is a “false belief” then you must know when he was born?

Curious Mary

Was Jesus actually born in September?

While unsure of the exact date yet is absolutely sure Christmas is based on the Festival of Saturnalia.

Yule logs and Christmas trees also come from paganism. As does holy water, prayer beads, Mary is Queen of heaven. etc.

Having looked at this many times over the years September makes the most sense.

A lot of people get uncomfortable with challenging December 25.

Remember, the early church did not celebrate his birth at all.

Celebrating Christmas as a secular holiday is far different from trying to make it holy.

 

[Willie T]

I'm still going with Sept 11th, at around 10:45 at night. Because the early guys screwed-up our calendar, the year could be as late as 3 AD, maybe even later.

 

[CoreIssue]

I'm still going with Sept 11th, at around 10:45 at night. Because the early guys screwed-up our calendar, the year could be as late as 3 AD.

I get your point. But none of the serious researchers places birth later than 4-6 BC for good reasons. None of which are Catholics.

In the past I've read pretty extensive data that dismissed December altogether for his birth.

But I can't find it now because too many got upset with the information.

It was not celebrated at all by the early Christians. The Bible does not painted as being even equal to his death and resurrection.

But it was a good excuse to incorporate another group of pagans into the Catholic Church.

 

[FHII]

The theory is that Constantine, in the 4th century, implemented December 25th as Jesus birthday. That would have been 200+ years AFTER Hippolytus.

Historical Mary

Well Historical Mary, do you know how he (Hippolytus) came up with that date? I'm sure you do or will google it soon if not.

2 reasons: 1. Its believed that the earth was created on March 25th and so Jesus himself must've been conceived on that date; and 2. Prophets are often conceived on the same date they die.

Yea... There's some strong credible historical reasoning for ya!

I don't know much about the man nor have I read his work ( and rumor has it that there is a discrepancy in the translation). But if that is his reasoning as to picking December 25th, I am hardly impressed.

I was recently in a discussion on this very thread about "credible" historians. Like I said, I haven't read his work but I looked into him and he was a respected historian at the time. That doesn't mean I would call him credible. Someone who picks a date solely based on Jewish fables is not credible. His other work may be credible, but this isn't .

There are more credible reasons for Dec 25th. They fall flat too... But at least they arent a fable based on other fables.

 

[Marymog]

Well Historical Mary, do you know how he (Hippolytus) came up with that date? I'm sure you do or will google it soon if not.

2 reasons: 1. Its believed that the earth was created on March 25th and so Jesus himself must've been conceived on that date; and 2. Prophets are often conceived on the same date they die.

Yea... There's some strong credible historical reasoning for ya!

I don't know much about the man nor have I read his work ( and rumor has it that there is a discrepancy in the translation). But if that is his reasoning as to picking December 25th, I am hardly impressed.

I was recently in a discussion on this very thread about "credible" historians. Like I said, I haven't read his work but I looked into him and he was a respected historian at the time. That doesn't mean I would call him credible. Someone who picks a date solely based on Jewish fables is not credible. His other work may be credible, but this isn't .

There are more credible reasons for Dec 25th. They fall flat too... But at least they arent a fable based on other fables.

Hi FHII,

I didn't say Hippolytus was credible. I simply stated the FACT that he suggested the December 25th date hundreds of years before Constantine 'implemented' it. Where did you read that he picked that date solely on "Jewish fables"??? The FACT is he concluded that date thru his analysis of the Old Testament Book of Daniel. [Hippolytus of Rome, Commentary on Daniel,]

I find it fascinating that you admit that you "don't know much about the man" NOR have you read his works but state that he was a respected historian but then turn around and disregard his assessment because YOU don't think he is credible.... Soooo who do you think is credible on this matter?

Where did you read that he was a "respected historian at the time"??? The only thing I know of his writings is that they consisted of, homiletics, apologetics, exegesis, ecclesiastical law and chronography.

Historical Mary

 

[Marymog]

Was Jesus actually born in September?

While unsure of the exact date yet is absolutely sure Christmas is based on the Festival of Saturnalia.

Yule logs and Christmas trees also come from paganism. As does holy water, prayer beads, Mary is Queen of heaven. etc.

Having looked at this many times over the years September makes the most sense.

A lot of people get uncomfortable with challenging December 25.

Remember, the early church did not celebrate his birth at all.

Celebrating Christmas as a secular holiday is far different from trying to make it holy.

The Festival of Saturnalia was a week long celebration the week BEFORE Christmas sooooo that theory is not very solid.

I agree with you. Historically the birth of Christ did not hold much significance to our Christian brothers and sisters. However, there is nothing wrong with celebrating his birthday BUT we are doing it all wrong by buying/exchanging gifts, putting up trees, lights, decorations etc. etc. Funny thing is I never got mad, and neither did you, when they gave us the day off with pay!!!

For the sake of argument I am willing to entertain your theory that all of those things you mentioned above are "from paganism". What is at the core of this issue? Replacement of paganism.....RIGHT?

I honestly ask you CoreIssue: If we, as Christians, could supplant all of the Satanically celebrated holidays with a Christian celebration/holiday wouldn't that be a good thing?

Curious Mary

 

[CoreIssue]

The Festival of Saturnalia was a week long celebration the week BEFORE Christmas sooooo that theory is not very solid.

I agree with you. Historically the birth of Christ did not hold much significance to our Christian brothers and sisters. However, there is nothing wrong with celebrating his birthday BUT we are doing it all wrong by buying/exchanging gifts, putting up trees, lights, decorations etc. etc. Funny thing is I never got mad, and neither did you, when they gave us the day off with pay!!!

For the sake of argument I am willing to entertain your theory that all of those things you mentioned above are "from paganism". What is at the core of this issue? Replacement of paganism.....RIGHT?

I honestly ask you CoreIssue: If we, as Christians, could supplant all of the Satanically celebrated holidays with a Christian celebration/holiday wouldn't that be a good thing?

Curious Mary

Well, no one ever gave me a day off with pay. In the Navy and steel mill operations were 24/7. They could not be shut down.

Same in elected office and when I ran my owned my own company.

My point is Catholicism is based on paganism.

Compromising with Satan is never a good thing.

Most people celebrate Easter and Christmas as secular holidays.

 

[Marymog]

Well, no one ever gave me a day off with pay. In the Navy and steel mill operations were 24/7. They could not be shut down.

Same in elected office and when I ran my owned my own company.

My point is Catholicism is based on paganism.

Compromising with Satan is never a good thing.

Most people celebrate Easter and Christmas as secular holidays.

Really???? You NEVER in your entire life had a job where you had Christmas off WITH pay????

You didn't take Christmas off when you owned your own company?? Did you have employees???

As an elected official I am POSITIVE you had the day off....with pay!!!

Supplanting (replacing) is not the same as compromising.

Soooo you don't celebrate Christmas on December 25th??

You do know that the CC has not officially declared that December 25th was Jesus birthday? If you dislike and disagree with the CC then you should try to debunk their doctrines not the history of Christian practices.

Mary

 

[FHII]

I didn't say Hippolytus was credible. I simply stated the FACT that he suggested the December 25th date hundreds of years before Constantine 'implemented' it. Where did you read that he picked that date solely on "Jewish fables"??? The FACT is he concluded that date thru his analysis of the Old Testament Book of Daniel. [Hippolytus of Rome, Commentary on Daniel,]

First of all, I didn't say you said he was... Second... Well thank you for that fine reference. In using that hyperlink, can you tell me exactly what Hippolytus said that points to the date of December 25th? I didn't see it on the web site. Perhaps you can tell me what chapter it appears in?

Did you even read it?

As for "Jewish Fables"... I looked here:
Calculating December 25 as the Birth of Jesus in Hippolytus’ Canon and Chronicon in: Vigiliae Christianae Volume 69 Issue 5 Year 2015

And Here:
How December 25 Became Christmas - Biblical Archaeology Society

And I have about 4 other sources, if this doesn't satisfy you.

 

[Marymog]

First of all, I didn't say you said he was... Second... Well thank you for that fine reference. In using that hyperlink, can you tell me exactly what Hippolytus said that points to the date of December 25th? I didn't see it on the web site. Perhaps you can tell me what chapter it appears in?

Did you even read it?

As for "Jewish Fables"... I looked here:
Calculating December 25 as the Birth of Jesus in Hippolytus’ Canon and Chronicon in: Vigiliae Christianae Volume 69 Issue 5 Year 2015

And Here:
How December 25 Became Christmas - Biblical Archaeology Society

And I have about 4 other sources, if this doesn't satisfy you.

Hello FHII. Thank you for your response.

I agree that you didn't say that I said he was credible. You IMPLIED that I thought he was credible when you made it clear several different times in your response to me that in your opinion he was not "credible". I also never said he was a historian but you IMPLIED that I was using him as a "credible historian". You are the one who incorrectly suggested he was a historian (I didn't) and you implied that I was using him as a credible source as a historian. I was only stating a FACT about what he wrote and you have not debunked that fact. Would you like to try again???

You completely dodged my question: Where did you read that he was a respected historian????

Second of all: I sincerely apologize. I gave you the wrong link. Look in his Commentary on Daniel [4:23:3] for the answer.

Third off your "Jewish Fables" link is a study by Thomas C. Schmidt of Yale and your Biblical Archaeology Society link by Andrew McGowan makes no mention of a "Jewish Fable". If you read either article like you implied you did then please show me where either article talks about "Jewish Fables"??


Patient Mary

 

[Marymog]

Was Jesus actually born in September?

While unsure of the exact date yet is absolutely sure Christmas is based on the Festival of Saturnalia.

Yule logs and Christmas trees also come from paganism. As does holy water, prayer beads, Mary is Queen of heaven. etc.

Having looked at this many times over the years September makes the most sense.

A lot of people get uncomfortable with challenging December 25.

Remember, the early church did not celebrate his birth at all.

Celebrating Christmas as a secular holiday is far different from trying to make it holy.

Hey. Quick question that relates to paganism and Christianity. Are you married?

Curious Mary

 

[Soverign Grace]

I am a non denominational bible only Christian. I reject all denominations and their creeds.

Christ and the apostles never encourage such things. In fact, Paul condemned it.

So I cannot the protestant or a catholic. I am a Christian.

Society is in love with hyphenated people. No hyphen here.

What are you?

I don't call myself a Baptist, even though I attend a Baptist church. I had a winding path to get where I'm at. I was raised Catholic, and tried Pentecostal churches, Reformed Presbyterian, Methodist, a number of independent churches, and finally wound up in a Baptist church. I don't think it really matters much what denomination you're in, as long as it's biblical.

 

[CoreIssue]

Hey. Quick question that relates to paganism and Christianity. Are you married?

Curious Mary

46 years to one woman.

I know about the rings. Ownership of wife according to some ancient customs. But I wear one as well.

Interestingly, in the OT, Israel, wife of God, also wore nose rings.

 

[CoreIssue]

I don't call myself a Baptist, even though I attend a Baptist church. I had a winding path to get where I'm at. I was raised Catholic, and tried Pentecostal churches, Reformed Presbyterian, Methodist, a number of independent churches, and finally wound up in a Baptist church. I don't think it really matters much what denomination you're in, as long as it's biblical.

Paul condemned divisions in the body of Christ. Denominations are division.

 

[FHII]

You IMPLIED that I thought he was credible when you made it clear several different times in your response to me that in your opinion he was not "credible".

If you read carefully you will see that's simply not true. I did not imply that you thought he was credible. Read carefully and you will see I was speaking of a former conversation in which I don't recall your involvement..

You are the one who incorrectly suggested he was a historian

He was primarily a theologian... True, but was giving historical accounts and practicing as a historian. As you noted he was a chronologer or something.

and you implied that I was using him as a credible source as a historian.

Did you speak about what he wrote and was what he wrote a historical event? Do you think he was right? Again, Wasn't implying it to you. But since you brought it up... What do you think?

I was only stating a FACT about what he wrote and you have not debunked that fact. Would you like to try again???

Umm... I discussed what he wrote, therefore why would I debunk the fact that he wrote it when I acknowledged and discussed what he wrote? That's silly.

You completely dodged my question: Where did you read that he was a respected historian????

He was. I got it from wikipedia. Wikipedia called him one of the most important theologians of the 3rd century and then comments that he wrote on historical events. Even you noted his work historical disciplines.

Third off your "Jewish Fables" link is a study by Thomas C. Schmidt of Yale and your Biblical Archaeology Society link by Andrew McGowan makes no mention of a "Jewish Fable". If you read either article like you implied you did then please show me where either article talks about "Jewish Fables"??

I listed them for you. Didn't you see them? 1. Believing that March 25th is when God created the World; and 2. Believing that prophets or religious figures were conceived on the same date as their death. Do you believe that is true? I don't, thus they are fables. Moreover, many note they are customary Jewish beliefs. THAT part I might have to retract because I can't find any evidence that they are beliefs any Jews ever had. They may be Jewish beliefs that Christians made up to back their goofy theories (it's happened before).

Hippolytus believed that Jesus was born on December 25th based on Turtellian's believe that he was Crucified on March 25th. He then noted that the Jews believed that earth was created on a March 25th and that the Jews also believed that Prophets and Important religious figures were conceived on the same date they died. He then added a perfect 9 month pregnancy and thus we come up with December 25th... And it's all hogwash!

The pagan connection is looking a lot more rreasonable in light of that... Or maybe we should stop blaming the poor Jews and Pagans. Why steal their false beliefs when we can invent our own?

As for your link... It didn't work. But if its what I think it is, it seems the bulk of his conversation (or perhaps a commentary on it) concerning Christmas is in Appendix I, which is not iincluded... If its what I think. Did you read it?

Added:
I just had a look at The Commentary on Daniel. Hippolytus mentions Dec 25th in book 4:23.3. Very short paragraph with no reasoning behind the date. So I happily retract what I said about him picking the date based on Turtilluan's work or "Jewish fables". He doesn't give a reason. I could've edited out that part from my post, but I thought it better to let the post stay intact and update it.

However, that still may be the reason. Please have a look at this article:

Is the “integral age” theory an apologetics myth? 9 things to know and share

In conclusion:
1. Absolutely Hippolytus named a date before Constantine made it official. Clement of Alexandria talked about it as well (though didn't support it). Never denied that.
2. The Integral age theory as well as the beginning of the world theory aren't listed as reasons by Hippolytus. These are theories going around that I have yet to see in writings.
3. Given that, I still fail to see any other reasonable theory as to why the date of Dec 25th was picked.... By Constantine or Hippolytus. Given that, and until I see contrary, I have to hold that it was picked for one of those 3 reasons (integral age, creation of the world being March 25 or a merging with pagan holidays).
4. Concerning pagan influence: you really have to be blind not to see such in the modern observation of Christmas. Furthermore, it very well could be a reason Constintine picked the date. Hippolytus picked a date that just happened to coincide with not just one but a few different pagan celebrations ( for example the bith of Mithra). So it seemed like a win-win move by an Emporer who cared as much or more about political stability as he did for religion.

 

[Soverign Grace]

Paul condemned divisions in the body of Christ. Denominations are division.

I haven't gotten that in any Scripture I've read - it may be true, only I haven't been given light about it yet. I do know that going to church strengthens me - and I sense God in that church more than I have in any other church. I don't think it has anything to do with the denomination - I think it's more that God is letting us know we're where we're supposed to be. I lived through years of dry times - of not feeling right in a church and I hated it - I felt like the Israelites wandering in the desert 40 years. But when I go to our current church I feel like I'm "home" if that makes any sense. There are beautiful stained glass windows depicting Christ, and a huge organ loft. The church was built in the 1700's I believe. I think there is a sense of beauty there - of awe - of holiness - I can't really put my finger on it, but something is there that gives me a sense that I'm in the right place. Although in the wrong climate because I hate the cold. And the area around the church is crime-ridden. But for now this is where I feel at home. There is no way that I would think that God would be telling me that this is a denomination and that's against Scripture. He may at some point but I don't foresee it. I've been in an independent church who put down every other denomination. They were the worst church we've been in. I'm not saying that is true in your case, only in mine.