On How to be saved

[bbyrd009]

Please inform me as to what scripture verse or passage it is that you think I have denied.

when you say "Those of us who are in Christ will be judged over the good works that we did" you deny all kinds of Scripture, from testifying about yourself--"it is we and us who are in Christ, and we can tell bc we have decided in an unbiased way"--which is a killer all by itself, see, to denying the v itself, which tells us that all will be judged for their works done in the body, whether good or bad.

and again i'd like to mention that i have no probs whatsoever if this is merely a belief of yours, ok, this supposed ability to be in Christ after a little profession, the joining in singing When We All Get to Heaven, and the concepts like rewards for "good" works that also won't pass muster, these are all beliefs that pretty much everyone starts with i guess right. Or at least i did. They are all church 101. You will not be judged for believing those things, at least nowhere that i can find.

But when you say "this is that" you are now teaching, and subject to judgement, i guess bc teaching is doing a work?
so anyway i know how you got to "we get sent to a special location after we die based upon what we believed while we were alive, and we get presents for the good things we did then too, and you don't," and i am not even trying to disabuse you of the belief, ok. But none of it is even logically supportable as Bible Theory, let alone truth. I'll go dig up the relevant vv again for any of those concepts on request, dont wanna bother if no one cares though.

If one is a teacher then they should be able to give a straight answer to a pertinent Q, and when they cannot i am going to do my best to drive the point home ok, not meaning to pick on you

 

[bbyrd009]

The life being spoken of here is your life, in the sense of your life in this world...if you try to keep your life in this world

well of course we are pretty much all tryna do that too, Cult of Youth and all that, but no, that is not what the passage is saying, sorry. Even if de Leon would have been condemned for seeking the Fountain, sure, we all implicitly understand at a young age that we will die someday.

No one is literally trying to "keep their life in this world" in the manner that implies except the Cult that expresses that belief and some scientists following ol' Ponce imo, and wadr that passage just needs to be read with one eye and not two. also Scripture is not written to the lost as that would imply

He who seeks to "save his life" or "get his ego/id into 'eternal' life" after he has literally died will lose it imo, and any other reading is gratuitous. Of course an ordained pastor will not tell you this and will provide the most lucrative interpretation, and i would like to invite anyone willing to start standing up and telling the truth in congregation when you hear It, you don't have to get mean about it or anything, just stand up and say HORSE MANURE and turn around and walk out if you gotta. Do that cong a favor and split them in two, or tell me where you are at and i will even come do it on request, or see that it gets done. You'll find out if you are worshipping in a house divided right quick i guess lol

care to tell me where your "church" is?

 

[justbyfaith]

when you say "Those of us who are in Christ will be judged over the good works that we did" you deny all kinds of Scripture, from testifying about yourself--"it is we and us who are in Christ, and we can tell bc we have decided in an unbiased way"--which is a killer all by itself, see, to denying the v itself, which tells us that all will be judged for their works done in the body, whether good or bad.

It is not denying scripture; for the scripture does not contradict itself: and it also testifies that those who hear the words of Jesus and believe on Him who sent Him have everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation; but have passed from death into life. John 5:24 (kjv).

So then, when those who are in Christ will be judged, it will not be unto condemnation. I conclude that those who are judged for their works done in the body, whether good or bad, that those who are in Christ will not be judged over their sins, because their sins are washed away/forgiven/blotted out.

So please give chapter and verse of what scripture it is you think that I am denying; because I am not denying "the verse itself" since I affirm that all will be judged according to their works, whether good or bad; but that the bad works are simply forgiven so that there will be no condemnation over them. There will be loss; because the time spent doing the bad works was not spent doing good works; and therefore the reward for the good works that might have been done will not be received from the Lord. Everything will be tried by fire, and revealed for what sort of work it is; whether gold, silver, precious gems, wood, hay, stubble.

care to tell me where your "church" is?

It is the Calvary Chapel in San Pedro, CA, currently off of 7th Street and Grand!

Not that you would be able to get there just to do what you have said, since you are living in the Islands .

But I welcome you to try.

 

[amadeus]

Hi Mark,
I think JBF means we (Christians) will not be judged by our sin, as our sin has been judged already and paid for already through Christ. But judged by their works unto "rewards" or such? Just sayin

If this is so, why is there even a need for Jesus as our advocate after we have really repented that first time? Has Jesus really paid the price for sins we have not yet decided to commit. I think not.

So later after having repented we decide to sin again because we have an attraction still. When the attractions have also been overcome then we will not even want to sin and will not. While the attractions exist in us, we continue to be tempted and when we yield to those temptations in spite of our repentance, we sin. The wages of sin is still death.

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" I John 2:1

John is not writing to unsaved gentiles. He is writing to what he calls children, those so young in the things of God they are still on the milk of the Word instead of the meat. He knows that they slip and that they sin in spite of having sincerely repented. They have an advocate still.

They and we have an advocate still until and if we have overcome the world as Jesus did... Only overcomers may eat of the Tree of Life. Jesus overcame only his own world of flesh. He made it possible for us to qualify and go through... but we must do it ourselves.

 

[justbyfaith]

We shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24 (kjv)) because Jesus is our Advocate with the Father.

 

[Nancy]

If this is so, why is there even a need for Jesus as our advocate after we have really repented that first time? Has Jesus really paid the price for sins we have not yet decided to commit. I think not.

So later after having repented we decide to sin again because we have an attraction still. When the attractions have also been overcome then we will want to sin and will not. While the attractions exist in us, we continue to be tempted and when we yield to those temptations in spite of our repentance, we sin. The wages of sin is still death.

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" I John 2:1

John is not writing to unsaved gentiles. He is writing to what he calls children, those so young in the things of God they are still on the milk of the Word instead of the meat. He knows that they slip and that they sin in spite of having sincerely repented. They have an advocate still.

They and we have an advocate still until and if we have overcome the world as Jesus did... Only overcomers may eat of the Tree of Life. Jesus overcame only his own world of flesh. He made it possible for us to qualify and go through... but we must do it ourselves.

"Has Jesus really paid the price for sins we have not yet decided to commit."
I would have to say that, yes...Jesus dies once for ALL sin. How many sins did you commit when Jesus died FOR your sins that you hadn't yet committed?

"So later after having repented we decide to sin again because we have an attraction still." When the attractions have also been overcome then we will want to sin and will not. While the attractions exist in us, we continue to be tempted and when we yield to those temptations in spite of our repentance, we sin. The wages of sin is still death."

Personally speaking, if one still actually desires to sin, then how is it that they have the Holy Spirit living within them? Attractions do not remain in ALL of us...I will attest to that, FWIW (lol). Sin struggle with my own self involves more in the thought realm, which I've learned to stomp on right quick! Or, an unkind word to a family member spoken in anger perhaps. Of course I continue to repent in these areas but...I don't believe these are "willful" sins but, weaknesses, areas one might stumble more so where as another it could be lust, or greed, etc. These are ball and chains still being worked loose in my person. I HATE this weakness and God knows that...He is faithful to complete..."

"The wages of sin is still death."
Indeed! And, who paid those wages...who COULD but Jesus...not in increments, but once for all. I am not an advocate of "Christians never sin again" camp. Although a person claiming Christianity, who lives a life of sin, thinking that grace is all he needs...IMHO-they are not saved and are abusing the grace of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Indeed...when Jesus died for you, all of your past sins were yet in the future...

 

[bbyrd009]

No Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins will die

Little children, do not be deceived

 

[amadeus]

"Has Jesus really paid the price for sins we have not yet decided to commit."
I would have to say that, yes...Jesus dies once for ALL sin. How many sins did you commit when Jesus died FOR your sins that you hadn't yet committed?

Ultimately of course you are correct, but for each and every sin we do have to repent in order to accept what Jesus has done. Time is perhaps one thing that confuses us for we almost cannot conceive of there being no time. We cannot conceive the price that paid for us prior to what we see as our physical existence. But... that is getting too philosophical. The understanding is beyond any man to whom God has not given understanding.

"So later after having repented we decide to sin again because we have an attraction still." When the attractions have also been overcome then we will want to sin and will not. While the attractions exist in us, we continue to be tempted and when we yield to those temptations in spite of our repentance, we sin. The wages of sin is still death."

Personally speaking, if one still actually desires to sin, then how is it that they have the Holy Spirit living within them? Attractions do not remain in ALL of us...I will attest to that, FWIW (lol). Sin struggle with my own self involves more in the thought realm, which I've learned to stomp on right quick! Or, an unkind word to a family member spoken in anger perhaps. Of course I continue to repent in these areas but...I don't believe these are "willful" sins but, weaknesses, areas one might stumble more so where as another it could be lust, or greed, etc. These are ball and chains still being worked loose in my person. I HATE this weakness and God knows that...He is faithful to complete..."

I see within us still two men, the old man and the new man, until we have, by the work of the Holy Spirit, completely killed the old man. Consider the words of John the Baptist:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

The "He" is the Jesus in us or the new man of whom Paul speaks. The "I" is the old man, [the beasts of us or the beast nature of us] who must die completely before there is no more death in us:

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:1-2

"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts." Ecc 3:18

"The wages of sin is still death."
Indeed! And, who paid those wages...who COULD but Jesus...not in increments, but once for all. I am not an advocate of "Christians never sin again" camp. Although a person claiming Christianity, who lives a life of sin, thinking that grace is all he needs...IMHO-they are not saved and are abusing the grace of God.

Yes, only one payment by Jesus to allow any man who would be cleaned up completely of sin, but the sinful ways, the ways of carnal man remain as our beasts in need of killing:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

The world here is NOT planet Earth. Jesus did not overcome planet Earth. He overcame those same three attractions in that flesh which he took on that John mentions in that same verse. When He did that He became the first overcomer. But... He did that before he went to the cross. I believe he overcame the last obstacle to him personally with Gethsemane [Matt 26:36-44]. He expresses himself about what he had done here:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

Again the world is not planet Earth. The "world" is that little world within the carnal man Jesus. When he had overcome it, then he was ready to go to the cross for you and me... the sacrifice that would open the Door/Gate/Way closed to men at Eden [Gen 3:22-24]

 

[bbyrd009]

Indeed...when Jesus died for you, all of your past sins were yet in the future...

wadr that is Two Eyes talking, not One. When you found the world you killed Christ all by yourself, that day

 

[justbyfaith]

No Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins will die

Little children, do not be deceived

1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, and wherein ye stand: by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

@bbyrd009,

Your statements are diametrically opposed to the essential message of what the scripture teaches is the gospel.

 

[justbyfaith]

the carnal man Jesus.

 

[amadeus]

Yes, Jesus was a carnal man, a man of flesh tempted in every point as all of us have been unless the writer of Hebrews was in error:

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15

What does "carnal" mean? Don't presume it means intrinsically evil. If you believe that that is the only possible meaning, you may miss something important...

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus Christ knew no sin (2 Corinthians 5:21), He was without sin (Hebrews 4:15), He did no sin (1 Peter 2:22) and there is no sin in Him (1 John 3:5).

Using the term "carnal" I think, is taking it too far that He came in the flesh. Romans qualifies it by Paul saying that He came in the likeness of sinful flesh; iow, not in sinful flesh, but in the likeness of sinful flesh, or, in sinless flesh.

The connotation of the word "carnal" is that it denotes something sinful. Now I know that certain cults try to redefine words within the framework of the understanding of the ones that they are teaching.

But let us stick with connotations for the everyday people, shall we?

Carnal does indeed have the connotation of sinful; so let us not blaspheme Christ by insinuating that He was carnal.

 

[amadeus]

Jesus Christ knew no sin (2 Corinthians 5:21), He was without sin (Hebrews 4:15), He did no sin (1 Peter 2:22) and there is no sin in Him (1 John 3:5).

Using the term "carnal" I think, is taking it too far that He came in the flesh. Romans qualifies it by Paul saying that He came in the likeness of sinful flesh; iow, not in sinful flesh, but in the likeness of sinful flesh, or, in sinless flesh.

The connotation of the word "carnal" is that it denotes something sinful. Now I know that certain cults try to redefine words within the framework of the understanding of the ones that they are teaching.

But let us stick with connotations for the everyday people, shall we?

Carnal does indeed have the connotation of sinful; so let us not blaspheme Christ by insinuating that He was carnal.

I made no such insinuation. However, I believe that all people need to understand that Jesus really was a man tempted. The difference on this between Jesus and us is that he never surrendered to temptation as all of us have done. Using always the right words or the right language will not alone save a single person. At the tower of Babel [Gen 11] they all spoke exactly the same language and they still missed it. Today in addition to connotations, we have many quite different human languages. Yet, there are likely some within each distinct language group that speak to and understand God. That is not because we have perfect translators or interpreters. It could be because we share the same blood...

 

[justbyfaith]

There is no point, however, in confusing the issues by taking a term like carnal and putting your own connotation on it so that only you and those who are basically following your teaching even know what you are really talking about. Things like this only serve to cause more division concerning what people believe in the body of Christ.

It is better to stick to the same definitions as we all are used to, and avoid confusion. Otherwise, there may be two different people hearing the same message and each one getting a completely different message, because the definitions of the words in the message are different in each person's mind.

@Jane_Doe22, this applies to our discussion elsewhere.

 

[Nancy]

Ultimately of course you are correct, but for each and every sin we do have to repent in order to accept what Jesus has done. Time is perhaps one thing that confuses us for we almost cannot conceive of there being no time. We cannot conceive the price that paid for us prior to what we see as our physical existence. But... that is getting too philosophical. The understanding is beyond any man to whom God has not given understanding.


I see within us still two men, the old man and the new man, until we have, by the work of the Holy Spirit, completely killed the old man. Consider the words of John the Baptist:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

The "He" is the Jesus in us or the new man of whom Paul speaks. The "I" is the old man, [the beasts of us or the beast nature of us] who must die completely before there is no more death in us:

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:1-2

"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts." Ecc 3:18



Yes, only one payment by Jesus to allow any man who would be cleaned up completely of sin, but the sinful ways, the ways of carnal man remain as our beasts in need of killing:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

The world here is NOT planet Earth. Jesus did not overcome planet Earth. He overcame those same three attractions in that flesh which he took on that John mentions in that same verse. When He did that He became the first overcomer. But... He did that before he went to the cross. I believe he overcame the last obstacle to him personally with Gethsemane [Matt 26:36-44]. He expresses himself about what he had done here:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

Again the world is not planet Earth. The "world" is that little world within the carnal man Jesus. When he had overcome it, then he was ready to go to the cross for you and me... the sacrifice that would open the Door/Gate/Way closed to men at Eden [Gen 3:22-24]

I do agree with all you say here John, and I DO repent from my heart when I stumble, God knows my heartfelt sorrow, I say I repent and am so sorry for grieving your Spirit Father! PLEASE help me to STOP, strengthen me Lord as, I feel sometimes I cannot help myself, when I know I can! Thank you for your awesome forgiveness, help my weaknesses and sin! Amen ♥
In Him,
-nancy

 

[amadeus]

I do agree with all you say here John, and I DO repent from my heart when I stumble, God knows my heartfelt sorrow, I say I repent and am so sorry for grieving your Spirit Father! PLEASE help me to STOP, strengthen me Lord as, I feel sometimes I cannot help myself, when I know I can! Thank you for your awesome forgiveness, help my weaknesses and sin! Amen ♥
In Him,
-nancy

If each of us does as much as he can with what he has, God who gave him what he have will certainly be fair in any judgment on his case, will He not? God does not just cut us off because we stumble. If we do stumble, but we have been working with Him, He will allow us the opportunity to make a correction... if we are not purposely tempting Him. This is what, I believe, Apostle Paul was meaning with this verse:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape that ye may be able to bear it" I Cor 10:13

This, of course, does not mean we should plan on sinning believing that God will let us repent one more time. We do much of this [tempting God] and likely God will let us without warning get hit by a big truck as we cross the street [or some such thing] before we have time to repent again. Always God's time for each of us. We don't know how long.

 

[Nancy]

If each of us does as much as he can with what he has, God who gave him what he have will certainly be fair in any judgment on his case, will He not? God does not just cut us off because we stumble. If we do stumble, but we have been working with Him, He will allow us the opportunity to make a correction... if we are not purposely tempting Him. This is what, I believe, Apostle Paul was meaning with this verse:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape that ye may be able to bear it" I Cor 10:13

This, of course, does not mean we should plan on sinning believing that God will let us repent one more time. We do much of this [tempting God] and likely God will let us without warning get hit by a big truck as we cross the street [or some such thing] before we have time to repent again. Always God's time for each of us. We don't know how long.

"This, of course, does not mean we should plan on sinning believing that God will let us repent one more time." I think they call that hyper-grace. Not at all a proponent, lol!
I guess I have a hard time relating any born again believer "planning" and enjoying sinning at all! Perhaps the young in Christ who does not have enough understanding of the cost to follow Him ♥

 

[mjrhealth]

"This, of course, does not mean we should plan on sinning believing that God will let us repent one more time." I think they call that hyper-grace. Not at all a proponent, lol!

most people dont plan on sinning before thy become christians , why do they need to, after they do become christians. As Christians, we are not supposed to "think" of sin, Christ came so we could live, if we are sin centered than we have no life... of course teh religious will have something to say about that.