Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

[Taken]

ha i note that ppl (determinists) still love to debate who could possibly be lost, while Scripture considers who can possibly be saved lol

-Left

Sure people discuss who could be lost.
Jesus Himself came to those who were lost.
The Saved do not require Saving.
The Lost, the Unknowing, is who the Saved seek that "they" may desire to "hear" and also become saved.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

God gave me a New heart, New spirit;

well, a perspective was installed in the Book that you are welcome to apply to yourself, certainly, but i suggest that there are other ways to read that, too, and that many will be deceived; even the elect surely all believe the same thing, don't they?

 

[Taken]

so once again the best i can get is an evasion,
and a leading away from Scripture rather than to it?
minimizing "change your mind" now?

or am i reading that wrong, or what?

It is not an evasion, but more so, you must have either not read, or do not understand...
Thoughts of a man are not exclusive to his MIND.
Man also has thoughts of his HEART.

God seeks the confession of Belief, from a mans Heart, not his Mind.

Rom 10:9
Rom 10:10
Rom 8:7
Jer 17:10

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

well, a perspective was installed in the Book that you are welcome to apply to yourself,

I do apply that to myself. Thank you.

certainly, but i suggest that there are other ways to read that, too, and that many will be deceived; even the elect surely all believe the same thing, don't they?

Sure many will be deceived.....but not a deception concocted by Believing and Trusting the Word of God.

Gods "elect", are they WHO ALL, during their own natrual life, "elected" to Trust to BELIEVE in the Word of God.

(Do they all mindfully believe exactly the same? Probably not. I believe peas taste horrible, yet another may believe peas taste wonderful. Does it matter, spiritually? No.)

God Bless,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace, thank you for your reply..

I believe you only have only one question you have asked of me, regarding John 5:28-29?

You have made other statements that are not posed as questions for me?

Paying attention to scripture is crucial, I agree. It is also critical to pay attention to the context, the speakers, their style and knowing their historical meanings of words, the audience and the meaning of the words or phrases used in an area of scripture.

In this case we need to know the meanings of the phrase ‘good works’ and ‘evil deeds.’ Now the style and history of Jesus’ teachings suggest strongly that Jesus mean ‘good deeds’ and ‘evil deeds’ as measured by God’s standards and perspective and not by human standards or view.

Then we need to know what does ‘doing good or evil deeds’ mean. Does it mean committing sins on a one- time basis, a short-term thing, an intermittent and infrequent thing, or a continuous thing? Or is this entire areas of sin irrelevant?

John 3:16-18 among several other pieces of scripture is the support here that Jesus meant that ‘good’ works were works of believers that were righteous and faithful. Now this has no bearing on habitual or even long-term sins a believer committed in their lives. ‘Evil’ works are of unbelievers no matter how sinless or perfect they seem to be, and no matter the sins they committed, although they would be the ones that would practice sin as a lifestyle and some would love it. Believers on the other hand hate sin and the practice of the same sin. I have not come across any believer that loves to sin or is proud of it. I am one indeed. Unfortunately, they/we have a human spirit or nature, like any human being in this body.

I’m surprised you did not start your area of scripture with verse 24 and on…it does give more context and meaning into what you are searching for…

Note: I hope that by seeing the word ‘works’ in this scripture, does not get someone energized to say that I believe in salvation through works or earning my way to salvation. This is not that at all. These are spiritual works and are evidence of salvation via the working of spirit of God within a believer.

Yes, Jesus never used your words and said that “... you believe one time and are saved forever.” Neither did he say “if you do not believe the first time you can never be saved.” I think you are trying to formulate, feed or mature a belief model you have created that may not be based on scripture? Everyone does this I know. Is it scriptural though, is key?

I have a question for you if I may ask it…

How do you know that God is working within you and you are indeed a child of God? One scriptural answer is this one…

"For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God... The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." (Romans 8:14,16)

Thanks

APAK

Hi Apak, sorry for delay.

Everything I write to you personally, is for you. If you think it's a question, then it is. Also, I know about hermeneutics and exegesis, but it's a good lesson for those who may not know. Of course, everything you've said in this regard is correct.

Good deeds and evil deeds: God's perspective, man's perspective.
What do you think is the difference? A lot of deeds which are deemed evil to God are not even considered by man, whose standards are much lower than God's.

When Jesus spoke about good, He meant good. He meant that we follow our spirit and the ways of God. When Jesus spoke about evil, he meant the evil man does with his dark heart and what happens when man follow the enemy -- his deeds are of the enemy.
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is dark and desperately wicked. Jesus came to show us how to have a heart turned toward God.
Jeremiah 31:34
Ezekiel 36:26
God promised to give us a new heart. Jesus teaches us how.

Also, in Mathew 5:48 Jesus tells us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. IOW, to be as perfect as possible as the Father in heaven is. Our Father, and Jesus, are to be our examples.

I've never had to discuss before what good deeds and evil deeds means. It seems to be self-evident. Then you want to know how many good and evil deeds... Jesus called the evil deeds a practice of lawlessness.
Mathew 7:23
I'm not sure HOW MANY evil deeds constitute a life of lawlessness. I'd say that the smart way is not to try and find out. I'd try NOT to live lawlessly.

As far as John 3:16, I used that verse because it shows that the belief we have in the Son of God must be of a present tense. That whoever BELIEVES in Jesus is saved --- NOT that whoever believed in Him one time is saved. The person must believe in Jesus at the time of the person's death. If it is faith that saves as per §Ephesians 2:8 then that faith must be present at the time of death.

I fail to understand why I should have started at verse 24??

John 3:17 and 18 explain that we are born LOST, and thus have already been judged, but those who BELIEVE in Jesus are not condemned but are saved.

I am not formulating any belief model that is of my own making.
YOU, on the other hand, are formulating a belief model that did not EXIST prior to 1500 AD. Works are indeed a part of salvation.
Jesus said so Himself. See
Mathew 25:34-46
See The Beatitudes where Jesus tells us how He expects us to act to remain in the Kingdom He spoke of in John 3:3.

Jesus said that we are to be born from above,
John 3:5
And if we are born from above, we are already in the Kingdom of God here on earth and will be expected to act as such.
If you wish to call this works, that is your prerogative.
Then works it is. I call it obeying Jesus.

Romans 8:14 is nice. Of course I agree with it.

But you've not answered or put forth any verses to support your pov.
Since you're such a believer in hermeneutics and exegesis, maybe you can explain the verses I've posted and how YOU understand them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for the conversation, yet I feel we are still in disagreement.

I do not believe a man who has become saved and born again, can become "unsaved" or "unborn again".... which would make the Lord a liar and His Power moot.

One will know if another is saved and born again .... or not.

1) By their claim, should you trust to rely on their word.
2) They can never speak in Disbelief in thy Lord thy God.

God Bless,
Taken

The problem here is that some who are born again turn away from God sometimes. I have seen this. It could be that they never really believed, I don't doubt this.

But I like to go by scripture and Paul made it clear that salvation could be lost. Many of his letters have words in them such as, IF, and IF YOU CONTINUE, and IF YOU FALL AWAY. How do you explain all Paul's warnings to Christians, to whom he was writing, if it is not possible to fall away?

Romans 11:22
2 Peter 2:20-22
1 Corinthians 9:27
2 Peter 3:17
1 John 2:24

How would you explain the above verses if our salvation were guaranteed based on nothing?

 

[GodsGrace]

Salvation IS a GIFT.
IOW - it is something God HAS, and a man CAN Receive.




You imply, a man who HAS RECEIVED the Gift of Salvation, FROM GOD, is a GIFT, God foolishly Gave, and can HE TAKE IT BACK, Because a man, AFTER HAVING RECEIVED the GIFT, then Rejected God.

This is where I believe your understanding is secular and not spiritual.

When a natural man ACCEPTS GODS GIFT OF SALVATION...."that GIFT" comes with "TERMS".

It IS a precise CHOICE of the man, exercising HIS FREE WILL, to make a CONTRACT, a VOW, a SUBMISSION to the Lord.

You secularly noted, mans Freewill to Choose, then retaining that Freewill to basically "change his mind", and reject his Salvation.

Scripture teaches....God IS TRUTH. His WORD IS TRUTH.

Scripture also teaches....Inasmuch as He is Truth, He "accepts" mans "HEART'S" thoughts as Truth.

When a man CHOOSES to believe in God, and SOLICITE God Himself, (calling on His NAME), to TELL GOD of the man's (exercised Freewill)......God does not LISTEN to a mans MIND.....God LISTENS to the thoughts of a mans "natural spirit", (his "natural truth") in the mans "natural heart".

ONCE that ( a man exercising his own freewill to proclaim to the Lord his belief in his heart) IS accomplished....

The Lord Himself, Forgives the man, for NOT having believed in Him.

The Lord Himself, kills that body of Sin, washes that body of Sin, sanctifies that body of Sin, keeps that sanctified body with Christ, until the day He gives that body it's own glorification change.

Saves the mans soul, BY restoring it to good, By Gods Power;

And Gives the man an everlasting NEW heart, that it forever shall be KEPT in Belief;

And Gives the man an everlasting NEW spirit;
That it shall forever have Life in it;

And Gives that man His Own everlasting Spirit of LIFE , within the man to KEEP the mans soul, the mans spirit, Forever Alive;

And Gives that man His Own everlasting Truth, written in the mans NEW Heart.

And you propose a man WHO HAS chosen with his own Freewill to Subject himself to ALL OF THIS.....is a man WHO CAN THEREAFTER, supersede Gods Own Power, and undo ALL OF THIS....with his own Mind?

I absolutely do not agree.

Scripture teaches (and perhaps men don't teach so well)....that when a man concludes in his heart to believe in God....

Before jumping in and calling on the Lords Name......TO KNOW what he is commtting to....and to KNOW that it is a PERMANENT VOW....AND TO BE SURE of what he is committing to.

2 Pet 1:10
Wherefore the "rather", brethren,
GIVE DILIGENCE to MAKE "YOUR" CALLING and (your) ELECTION "SURE".

1 Thes 1:4
"KNOWING", brethren beloved,
"YOUR ELECTION OF GOD".

Jas 5:
....let your yea be yea and your nay, nay.

Saving of a mans soul, is completely between the man exercising his own freewill to call on the Lord's Name, with a Confession of Belief in the mans own heart, and the man VOWING to ELECT God, to Give the man the Gift of Salvation.

And no, that is not thereafter undone.
And no, that is not received because of Works of a man.



Faith IS a GIFT from God. When one is hearing/reading the Word of God they are being enlightened, ie being recipients of the TRUTH of God.

When the individual is BELIEVING what they hear/read, they are given measures of Faith.

This is not Saving, this is them receiving Faith, FOR them believing what they hear/read.

Keep hearing, reading, believing the Word...
The man will Keep receiving Faith.

Stop hearing, reading, believing the Word...
The man will Lose receiving Faith.

So can a man Lose Faith? Absolutely.

Can a man WHO is SAVED Lose Faith? No.

The difference is ONE is kept hearing, reading, believing, BY exercising his own freewill.

ONE is kept in Faithfulness, BY Gods Power.

So what about the man WHO claims He believed, WAS SAVED, but is no longer?

We know not, the choice the man made.
Perhaps he chose to submit to God, by the thoughts in his MIND, not his HEART, and then CHANGED HIS MIND.

Was the man EVER SAVED? No.

What about the man WHO claims to be SAVED, but "other men", do not SEE, his "WORKS" as good?

Did the mans "WORKS" save the man? No.

Can another man SEE Gods INTERNAL SAVING and QUICKENING of a mans "soul and spirit" ? No.

So, sure men can hear another mans testimony of being Saved. And men can see another mans Works, and trust to believe the man is Saved.

But how would one man KNOW for sure IF another man IS SAVED?

A SAVED MAN will NEVER DENY Belief IN GOD, precisely Because of the Power of God within the man.

God Bless,
Taken

Salvation is a gift.
Which must be held onto.
I believe I've answered all of the above in my previous post just above.
Your beliefs are not pivotal to me, please provide scripture for those beliefs.

You sound like a Calvinist. Did Calvinistic ideas exist before 1500 AD?
I can show you that they did not .

 

[APAK]

QUOTE="Grams, post: 371770, member: 7520"]You are either saved !!! Or Not!

Once saved is for ever............ but what you do on this earth gives you your position in the heavens.........

That's NOT what the Bible says.

The Bible speaks of saved, born again people with a full, experiential knowledge of Christ CAN fall away and be lost:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.[/QUOTE]

BreadOfLife:

I see you have shot out some flaming arrows of scripture attempting to kill any opposing view on this subject

I thought this was a serious post, so I have taken a few hours to generate a response in kind.

I will post several times because it is lengthy.

(Rom 11:17) But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

(Rom 11:18) do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

(Rom 11:19) Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

(Rom 11:20) That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

(Rom 11:21) For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

(Rom 11:22) Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

(Rom 11:23) And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. (ESV)

This is an irrelevant area of scripture (verse 22) you have presented in support of your opposing view of the meaning of salvation.

You have missed the context, the audience and the meaning of ‘continuance in God’s kindness’ that Paul was speaking of….

This scripture is all about Paul speaking of a collective culture or tribal view of Israel of old and those new Christians of old Israel (remnant) and other nations and tribes. It is not focused on an individual’s salvation, regardless of tribal background. Although, I must say it still applies in principal to a single believer in this context.

The severity of ‘those’ who fell are the unbelieving Israelites. They never were collectively believers of Jesus Christ in the first place (except for a remnant) therefore they never lost salvation. They never continued in God’s kindness.

God’s kindness to ‘you’ will remain, with the other nation or non-Israel tribes as long as they collectively or yes individually remained in God kindness or grace by their firm faith.

The operative words are: ‘you continue in his kindness…’ Not continuing means they never had firm faith and were never believers and therefore never lost salvation. If they did, they were indeed true believers. The Israelites never continued in his kindness via their belief in the law because they could not receive the spirit of God for their assurance and continued belief to salvation.


APAK....continues

 

[APAK]

Incidentally, the term ‘cut-off’ does not mean uprooted or a complete loss of salvation. It means that branches or a major branch is cut out from the source of life as in a major pruning operation. It means salvation is still there although God’s kindness may not be. These branches (unbelieving tribes of Israel) in the future can easily be re-grafted back into the tree again because God has the power to do this, as verse 23 suggests.

The spirit of God within a believer will sustain that person in pure faith and belief in Jesus Christ to eventual salvation. He or she shall continue in God’s kindness with firm faith. If a person completely rejected Christ, or never continued in God’s kindness, then they never were in the spirit of God, and never believed in the first place, and therefore never had salvation.

(Heb 10:26) For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

(Heb 10:27) but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. (ESV)



Another misapplied area of scripture:

These verses apply to those that receive the gospel with joy and even confess their belief in God in public but soon fade away back to their old ways of the world. These people are on the verge of becoming a true believer and never make the commitment for life with genuine faith. They are apostates, pretenders and false believers. These are the ones that fall back into their same sins intentionally usually with the same intensity, as some will still convince themselves they are believers, to themselves and others. This is a fatal delusionary state to be in. They never were believers and obtained salvation.

APAK ..continues

 

[APAK]

(2Pe 2:20) For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

(2Pe 2:21) For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

(2Pe 2:22) What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” (ESV)

This scripture has a very similar meaning as the previous scripture (Heb 10:26-27) and applied especially to false teachers. They were never believers in the first place. If interested in the context, go back to 2 Peter 2:1 and read it all the way through to know understand the context more clearly. It should then be evident these verses do not apply to true believers.

APAK continues....

 

[APAK]

Another misapplied area of scripture:

(Mat 5:13) “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet. (ESV)

This verse is about being an effective believer or disciple that serves Jesus and does God’s will. It is a warning to true believers not to be complacent or lazy in being an effective witness for God to others. We as true believers are to be firm in our beliefs and reveal the truth of the gospel and Jesus Christ in public. To nourish, or season (as in salt) the earth (world) with God’s spiritually that lasts or preserves a human soul to salvation. This has NOTHING to do with the loss of salvation.

APAK continues....

 

[APAK]

(1Co 9:27) But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. (ESV)

Should go back to the start of the Chapter to know what this verse is speaking about

I noticed that you wrote that falling into sin is the same as losing salvation? Maybe you meant something else.


Paul is speaking of being a spirit-filled and spirit led preacher of the gospel as humanly possible. He wants to be focused in the spirit and not in his human nature or the world when he preaches.

Of course, true believers do fall into sin as Paul would agree. This is entire argument. In this body you cannot divorce yourself completely from it, and thus you do sin. You cannot completely ignore it while being conscious. Paul wished he could separate himself from his body. This is the message. He does not want to be disqualified as an instrument and servant of God. Paul was very sensitive and conscious of his human frailties when he wanted to perform spiritual and holy works for God. He felt unclean, and in sin, and yet not unsaved.

APAK continues.....

 

[APAK]

(2Pe 3:17) You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. (ESV)

The words you are underlining is about losing personal true faith and adherence to the true principles and teachings of God they have been taught. And then believing in false teachers and their lies that weakened this strict adherence to the truth. It does not say salvation is lost at all.

This verse does not suggest as you believe, that losing your secure place means falling back into sin or lawless. That is a huge stretch to extract that from this verse. Believing in false teachings does not make a true believer sinful or lawless as you stated. It is usually done subtly and not deliberately. It weakens the believer in the truth it does not cause complete unbelief as you seem to suggest or want to read from this verse.

The true believer that is led astray in false doctrines will become less effective in the service of the Lord. So, the message it to be on guard against such people, not to be on guard against losing salvation.

APAK continues....

 

[APAK]

(1Jn 2:24) Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.

This is similar to the previous scripture. Keep the truth of the gospel safe within you so as to be in the same spirit of Jesus our Lord and our Father who are in the heavens. It does not mean that the spirit of God has left the believer. God will never leave them. Their salvation is secure.

(Rev 3:5) The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

This verse is quite clear. True believers are the overcomers (over their sinful nature and of the world). Jesus our Lord is reassuring true believers that he will never go back on his word and deny us salvation to eternal life. Jesus will call out every believer’s name in front of all divinity that we are his, in him. Jesus will never deny that we are children of God. I do not see any loss of salvation here.

I believe you might be confused with the term overcomers or those that conquer. It does not mean that we somehow fight our way to salvation, by losing and then gaining salvation cyclically during our life. We come to God with contrite heart and pure faith in our belief in his son. We sincerely repent of our sins and yearn and weep for God to live within us, for a changed life that endures beyond this one. We overcome by the belief in the blood of Jesus and his salvation and resurrection that we too through faith are ‘new creatures’ justified and sanctified for the heavens.

APAK continues with last post...

 

[APAK]

(Rev 22:18) I warn everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds anything to these, God will give that person the plagues written about in this book.

(Rev 22:19) and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

This scripture is quite clear…those that bend or deliberately falsify significantly the true meanings or words of this book of prophecy will not enter the Kingdom and holy city. They are classes or cults of unbelievers. Believers are kept from apostacy by the grace of God and their free acceptance of it and what that all entails. Their salvation remains intact.

In verse 18, the plagues are spoken of. Will a true believer be alive during the time of these plagues? I’m not definitely 100% sure on the timing, although if this is the case, the plagues can only apply to unbelievers and apostates anyway.

These verses may seem like they apply only to true believers because it has the words take away their portion in the tree of life. Only true believers have access to the tree of life in the next age. Although the apostates who come the closest to being and resembling true believers also fit into this category. God knew that they would never become a believer in Christ and clearly stated it with their denial to eternal life. This warning is for them. The warning verses are primarily for the Book of Revelation although I consider them applicable to the entire Bible. In Deuteronomy, God warn of adding or taking away from his commands. In Proverbs 30 :5-6 also.

APAK

 

[APAK]

Hi Apak, sorry for delay.

Everything I write to you personally, is for you. If you think it's a question, then it is. Also, I know about hermeneutics and exegesis, but it's a good lesson for those who may not know. Of course, everything you've said in this regard is correct.

Good deeds and evil deeds: God's perspective, man's perspective.
What do you think is the difference? A lot of deeds which are deemed evil to God are not even considered by man, whose standards are much lower than God's.

When Jesus spoke about good, He meant good. He meant that we follow our spirit and the ways of God. When Jesus spoke about evil, he meant the evil man does with his dark heart and what happens when man follow the enemy -- his deeds are of the enemy.
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is dark and desperately wicked. Jesus came to show us how to have a heart turned toward God.
Jeremiah 31:34
Ezekiel 36:26
God promised to give us a new heart. Jesus teaches us how.

Also, in Mathew 5:48 Jesus tells us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. IOW, to be as perfect as possible as the Father in heaven is. Our Father, and Jesus, are to be our examples.

I've never had to discuss before what good deeds and evil deeds means. It seems to be self-evident. Then you want to know how many good and evil deeds... Jesus called the evil deeds a practice of lawlessness.
Mathew 7:23
I'm not sure HOW MANY evil deeds constitute a life of lawlessness. I'd say that the smart way is not to try and find out. I'd try NOT to live lawlessly.

As far as John 3:16, I used that verse because it shows that the belief we have in the Son of God must be of a present tense. That whoever BELIEVES in Jesus is saved --- NOT that whoever believed in Him one time is saved. The person must believe in Jesus at the time of the person's death. If it is faith that saves as per §Ephesians 2:8 then that faith must be present at the time of death.

I fail to understand why I should have started at verse 24??

John 3:17 and 18 explain that we are born LOST, and thus have already been judged, but those who BELIEVE in Jesus are not condemned but are saved.

I am not formulating any belief model that is of my own making.
YOU, on the other hand, are formulating a belief model that did not EXIST prior to 1500 AD. Works are indeed a part of salvation.
Jesus said so Himself. See
Mathew 25:34-46
See The Beatitudes where Jesus tells us how He expects us to act to remain in the Kingdom He spoke of in John 3:3.

Jesus said that we are to be born from above,
John 3:5
And if we are born from above, we are already in the Kingdom of God here on earth and will be expected to act as such.
If you wish to call this works, that is your prerogative.
Then works it is. I call it obeying Jesus.

Romans 8:14 is nice. Of course I agree with it.

But you've not answered or put forth any verses to support your pov.
Since you're such a believer in hermeneutics and exegesis, maybe you can explain the verses I've posted and how YOU understand them.

GodsGrace: Thank you for your reply. I regret you do not view essentially any of my inputs as being of any value to your learning based on your elusive replies. You seem hung up on hanging a post 1500 AD model on me for all your replies. This is a first for me. You are so sure of yourself that I am really using a 500 year old or so model (I guess of Calvin) to base my view of scripture and salvation? It would be nice just to view scripture for what it is as the word of God without first analyzing and deducing who folks belong to:... are they of this class, mold or school of thought...and they you proceed accordingly..This is not the way I converse with other believers.

In Christ always,

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

It is not an evasion, but more so, you must have either not read, or do not understand...

no doubt lol--look if you don't want to answer the Q just say so

yes, that is what we call an "evasion."

 

[bbyrd009]

Sure many will be deceived.....but not a deception concocted by Believing and Trusting the Word of God.

i doubt you even know what Word is tbh--pretty sure you mean to shoe-horn Scripture in there for that, right--and yes obviously a deception concocted by deceiving and trusting one's belief in Word, called a strong delusion, that yes, i am so sorry to inform you, many who think they believe and trust Word will fall prey to, "even the elect if that were possible."

and your hyper-deterministic replies are pretty much a giveaway imo

 

[bbyrd009]

I do apply that to myself. Thank you.

ha see you are doing it again here, snipping my post to force your perspective on it? stuff like that?

 

[Taken]

no doubt lol--look if you don't want to answer the Q just say so

yes, that is what we call an "evasion."

Perhaps you could repeat "the question", you asked.

God Bless,
Taken