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Genuine believers would not disobey Jesus' command to be baptized "after" they have been saved through faith and there multiple passages of scripture which make it clear that man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9, 26; Ephesians 2:8.9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..). If being water baptized after we believe in/place faith in Jesus Christ for salvation was also necessary in order to become saved, then God make not so many statements in which He promises eternal life to those who simply BELIEVE IN/PLACE FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST FOR SALVATION.
Dan's gospel is salvation through trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) Doug's gospel is salvation by "water and works" which means you don't believe the gospel. Refusing to obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel is disobedience. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
Your "works based" false gospel is disobedience to God. (Galatians 1:6-9)
You have proven nothing and you are beginning to sound obnoxious and childish. I never said that genuine believers disobey the command to be baptized by refusing to be water baptized. That is your continued straw man argument. I simply said we are saved the moment that we believe in Him/place faith in Jesus Christ for salvation before water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9) Obeying the command to be baptized follows salvation. Your continued dishonesty is uncalled for and shameful.
Now you sound like a crafty lawyer. Genuine believers would not reject the command to be baptized, so your question about rejecting Jesus' command to be baptized is moot, yet if a believer was unable to receive water baptism because they were on their death bed (like the thief on the cross or a soldier on the battlefield) they would still be saved because they BELIEVE, which is in harmony with (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18).
Good grief. You turn everything into a work for salvation.
John 3:14 - Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up. That's the point you seem to miss. The Israelites who were bitten looked to the bronze serpent in faith to deliver them from death, just as we look to the Son and believe in Him in order to receive eternal life. (John 6:40) That is not salvation by works.You are so determined to "add" works to salvation through faith. You absolutely refuse to accept that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6) You want credit and have an issue with pride. The truth of the gospel is foolishness to you (1 Corinthians 1:21; 2:14) which keeps you from believing the gospel and until the blinders are removed (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) you will remain in UNBELIEF and refuse to believe the gospel.
They looked to the snake on the pole in belief in order to be delivered from death, just as we look to the Son and believe in Him in order to receive eternal life. That is still salvation through belief alone "apart from works." Elsewhere in scripture, we read: Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *Did you see that?
Paul is crystal clear here.
No Sir,
The point is, justification comes before any action is taken, just as it was for Abraham, our example of justifying faith:
Wow, so much action. I obeyed by choosing to believe the gospel. That was so much action as well. Works salvation is what you live and breathe.
Choosing to not look would have demonstrated a lack of belief. Just like choosing to not look to the Son for salvation also demonstrates a lack of belief.
Refusing to look at the bronze serpent would have demonstrated a lack of faith. You need to keep in mind that "faith only" per James is in regards to an empty profession of faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)
I know the real answers to your loaded questions.
Roman Catholics use this same bogus argument in an effort to "get around" the truth that salvation is through faith and not by works as well. Paul does not limit works merely to "works of the law" and when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).
He's not saying that. In all fairness to mailmandan, he said this... ↓↓↓
He's not pushing living in disobedience and still being saved when Jesus comes back. He's saying what Paul said: Salvation is not given as a reward of debt owed for work performed, but rather as a reward of faith before any work is performed:
