One Spirit

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APAK

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The again brother- @marks we have 1 John 5:7

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. The bible doesn't say there were two who bore witness but three...;)
Angelina, ( and @BarnyFife ) I would be careful with 1 John 5:7 it has a history of either being a forgery or the work of innocent creative overreach biased and eager to see the trinity doctrine in scripture.

I John 5: Verses 7 and 8 were deliberately altered to promote the Trinity concept during the 16th century. They added in some side comments for actual scripture. The closest correct English translation of these verses are “For there are three that bear record, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” The meaning of course was to show that Jesus was born by the Spirit. He was baptized and he shed his blood on the cross. These all three acts establish, validate and authentic Jesus' was truly present while on earth.

What the forgers did was to confuse the reader by adding in the words, “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth,”

They wanted to reinforce the false model of their three personalities of God: The Father, the Word, as the Son.

No early and genuine Greek manuscript of scripture before the 14th Century had the heavenly three witnesses in them. In fact, the same can be said for the Latin early text. These forgers only served the interests of the Pope, Roman Catholics and King James of England.

Sources: (Wilson 1865) (The Jerusalem Bible, New Testament 1966) (Wheless 1930) (Erasmus c. 1516) (New International Version (NIV) 1967)

Other sources (Dr. Daniel Wallace):

This longer reading is found only in eight late manuscripts, four of which have the words in a marginal note. Most of these manuscripts (2318, 221, and [with minor variations] 61, 88, 429, 629, 636, and 918) originate from the 16th century; the earliest manuscript, codex 221 (10th century), includes the reading in a marginal note which was added sometime after the original composition. Thus, there is no sure evidence of this reading in any Greek manuscript until the 1500s; each such reading was apparently composed after Erasmus’ Greek NT was published in 1516. Indeed, the reading appears in no Greek witness of any kind (either manuscript, patristic, or Greek translation of some other version) until AD 1215 (in a Greek translation of the Acts of the Lateran Council, a work originally written in Latin)…

It began with Desiderius Erasmus and his “Novum Instrumentum omne” which was the first New Testament in Greek to be published. This Greek text is also referred to as the Textus Receptus. Erasmus did not include the infamous Comma Johanneum of 1 John 5:7-8 in either his 1516 or 1519 editions of his Greek New Testament with very good reason. But it made its way into his third edition in 1522 because of pressure from the Catholic Church. After his first edition appeared in 1516, there arose such a furor over the absence of the Comma that Erasmus needed to defend himself. He argued that he did not put in the Comma Trinitarian formula because he found no Greek manuscripts that included it. Once one was produced called the Codex 61, that was written by one Roy or Froy at Oxford in c. 1520, he reluctantly agreed to include it in his subsequent editions. Erasmus probably altered the text because of politico-theologico-economic concerns. He did not want his reputation ruined, nor his Novum Instrumentum to go unsold. Thus it passed into the Stephanus Greek New Testament in 1551 (first New Testament in verses), which came to be called the Textus Receptus, and became the basis for the Geneva Bible New Testament in 1557 and the Authorized King James Version in 1611.

In reality, the issue is history, not heresy: How can one argue that the Comma Johanneum must go back to the original text when it did not appear until the 16th century in any Greek manuscripts? (Wallace DB. The Textual Problem in 1 John 5:7-8. | Bible.org)


Catholic scholars realize that the texts that Jerome used to originally put together the Latin Vulgate Bible (the basic Bible for Catholics) did not have the late addition (which, of course, it could not originally have had as that addition came about many centuries after Jerome did his translation).

Basically, what seems to have happened is that a monk put a personal note related to his interpretation of the ‘three’ mentioned in the first part of 1 John 5:7. One or more scribal monks after him, inserted his note actually in the text. It was NOT inspired by God.


Scripture translator Benjamin Wilson gave the following explanation in his “Emphatic Diaglott.” Mr. Wilson says, “This text concerning the heavenly witness is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the fifteenth century. It is not cited by any of the ecclesiastical writers; not by any of early Latin fathers even when the subjects upon which they treated would naturally have led them to appeal to its authority. It is therefore evidently spurious.

You have been warned and presenting 1 John 5:7 in its current popular form, as being original scripture is now on you.
 

Angelina

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@GEN2REV said
This is how the Holy Spirit comes to live inside a believer's heart. And it appears the Holy Spirit is both the Father and the Son.
... or as we understand, the Son is in the Father and The father is in the Son and the Holy Spirit is in the Father and in the Son. Still a Godhead. One Godhead. 3 separate spiritual beings.
 

Behold

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God is One Holy Spirit. God IS Spirit.
Does that mean that the Holy Spirit is a separate person?

People who become obsessed with this word "Trinity", have a difficult time understanding the idea of : "Spirit".

Well.....First you have to use a correct scripture, regarding God being "A" Spirit. As if you use a watered down fuzzy vague bible, or a similar incoherent greek text, then right away the path of understanding becomes darkened and obtuse, and you'll stay in the dark, reader.

So, lets first separate the Devil's spirit from Gods', as we certainly dont want to waste our time in a junk BIBLE that didn't separate them, do we?
Look at this verse. Jesus speaking.....>"You are of YOUR Father....THE Devil, and the lusts of your father you will do".
This is Christ explaining the adamic nature to anyone who cares to understand it about themselves.
See, SIN, is the devils's nature., and unbelieving sinners are OF the Devil.., and that is why Christ said : "you are of your FATHER"...the devil.
He is talking to every unbeliever.

And a person says....."is that why its natural for humans to want to SIN".?
A.) Of course, as our sin nature is the nature of the DEVIL, and this is not God's Nature.
To get God's nature you have to become BORN AGAIN...

Conclusion......."you must be born again".....as when that happens you change spiritual fathers., and if it doesn't, then your father the devil, is still your father when you die, and you will end up with Him and the rest of the religious lost, in Eternity.

Being born again, creates you to be the SON of a different FATHER, and that is why you must be born again,= if you want to be with the Father of Jesus after you die, or in the Rapure........ not just water baptized....not just a obsessed commandment keeper....but "you must be born again", or you will die a water baptized obsessed commandment keeping child of the DEVIL.

So, understand... that God's Holy Spirit is not the UN-Holy Spirit that is the Devil's Spirit, and that is why you have to use a real bible that says......God is A Spirit, and not a junk version that says...>"God is spirit".

Now, Father God is not a "person"..... Yet Jesus the God man became a Person.
Prior to Jesus becoming : "God was manifested in the Flesh", ..He was = "and the word WAS God"...the pre-incarnate Christ the living Word, who is A Spirit......before He was born of a Virgin as a human.
And notice What Jesus thinks about himself.... "JESUS
, being in the form of GOD, thought it not robbery to be Equal with God"""
This is a different situation then being born again as "One with God"......as this makes you a SON, and and HEIR< but it dies not make you EQUAL to God, regarding STATUS......>yet Jesus was EQUAL....to God.

See, Jesus is Equal to God, and is "One with God", always.........even before time began.

So, when we think of the person JESUS, we are describing the Man who became Flesh, virgin born, sent here by His Father who is "A" Spirit.

Notice also, another clue...... "and Jesus Breathed on them and said receive ye the Holy Spirit".
See that?
That is Christ, Jesus, God manifested in the Flesh who has the power to forgive sin and impart the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, before the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was given on that FEAST DAY of Pentecost.
If you care to read Genesis 1, you'll find that God BREATHED into Adam and he became ALIVE.

See that? That is God in Genesis and Jesus in the Gospel of John, doing the same thing...... because : "I and my FATHER are ONE". = Literally.

One more....Reader.

Read John 1:10.
It tells you that Jesus made the EARTH......and that is the same as GOD creating it in Genesis.. through the WORD......and Christ is the WORD made Flesh.
 
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Angelina

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Angelina, ( and @BarnyFife ) I would be careful with 1 John 5:7 it has a history of either being a forgery or the work of innocent creative overreach biased and eager to see the trinity doctrine in scripture.

I John 5: Verses 7 and 8 were deliberately altered to promote the Trinity concept during the 16th century. They added in some side comments for actual scripture. The closest correct English translation of these verses are “For there are three that bear record, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” The meaning of course was to show that Jesus was born by the Spirit. He was baptized and he shed his blood on the cross. These all three acts establish, validate and authentic Jesus' was truly present while on earth.

What the forgers did was to confuse the reader by adding in the words, “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth,”

They wanted to reinforce the false model of their three personalities of God: The Father, the Word, as the Son.

No early and genuine Greek manuscript of scripture before the 14th Century had the heavenly three witnesses in them. In fact, the same can be said for the Latin early text. These forgers only served the interests of the Pope, Roman Catholics and King James of England.

Sources: (Wilson 1865) (The Jerusalem Bible, New Testament 1966) (Wheless 1930) (Erasmus c. 1516) (New International Version (NIV) 1967)

Other sources (Dr. Daniel Wallace):

This longer reading is found only in eight late manuscripts, four of which have the words in a marginal note. Most of these manuscripts (2318, 221, and [with minor variations] 61, 88, 429, 629, 636, and 918) originate from the 16th century; the earliest manuscript, codex 221 (10th century), includes the reading in a marginal note which was added sometime after the original composition. Thus, there is no sure evidence of this reading in any Greek manuscript until the 1500s; each such reading was apparently composed after Erasmus’ Greek NT was published in 1516. Indeed, the reading appears in no Greek witness of any kind (either manuscript, patristic, or Greek translation of some other version) until AD 1215 (in a Greek translation of the Acts of the Lateran Council, a work originally written in Latin)…

It began with Desiderius Erasmus and his “Novum Instrumentum omne” which was the first New Testament in Greek to be published. This Greek text is also referred to as the Textus Receptus. Erasmus did not include the infamous Comma Johanneum of 1 John 5:7-8 in either his 1516 or 1519 editions of his Greek New Testament with very good reason. But it made its way into his third edition in 1522 because of pressure from the Catholic Church. After his first edition appeared in 1516, there arose such a furor over the absence of the Comma that Erasmus needed to defend himself. He argued that he did not put in the Comma Trinitarian formula because he found no Greek manuscripts that included it. Once one was produced called the Codex 61, that was written by one Roy or Froy at Oxford in c. 1520, he reluctantly agreed to include it in his subsequent editions. Erasmus probably altered the text because of politico-theologico-economic concerns. He did not want his reputation ruined, nor his Novum Instrumentum to go unsold. Thus it passed into the Stephanus Greek New Testament in 1551 (first New Testament in verses), which came to be called the Textus Receptus, and became the basis for the Geneva Bible New Testament in 1557 and the Authorized King James Version in 1611.

In reality, the issue is history, not heresy: How can one argue that the Comma Johanneum must go back to the original text when it did not appear until the 16th century in any Greek manuscripts? (Wallace DB. The Textual Problem in 1 John 5:7-8. | Bible.org)


Catholic scholars realize that the texts that Jerome used to originally put together the Latin Vulgate Bible (the basic Bible for Catholics) did not have the late addition (which, of course, it could not originally have had as that addition came about many centuries after Jerome did his translation).

Basically, what seems to have happened is that a monk put a personal note related to his interpretation of the ‘three’ mentioned in the first part of 1 John 5:7. One or more scribal monks after him, inserted his note actually in the text. It was NOT inspired by God.


Scripture translator Benjamin Wilson gave the following explanation in his “Emphatic Diaglott.” Mr. Wilson says, “This text concerning the heavenly witness is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the fifteenth century. It is not cited by any of the ecclesiastical writers; not by any of early Latin fathers even when the subjects upon which they treated would naturally have led them to appeal to its authority. It is therefore evidently spurious.

You have been warned and presenting 1 John 5:7 in its current popular form, as being original scripture is now on you.
I'll try my best not to quote that verse again if it is a bit dodgy...:)
 

GEN2REV

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@GEN2REV said ... or as we understand, the Son is in the Father and The father is in the Son and the Holy Spirit is in the Father and in the Son. Still a Godhead. One Godhead. 3 separate spiritual beings.
Doesn't it seem like Jesus would have mentioned a 3rd party there, though?

That'd be awful rude of Him to claim that He and the Father were coming to live with us and bring along a 3rd, uninvited, unmentioned, guest. Wouldn't it? :p
 

Angelina

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Okay here is a verse that gives me an indication that God is distinct from the Spirit ie: knows what is on the Spirit's mind because.....he intercedes according to Gods will. So it's almost like he's talking in the third person sense....

Romans 8:26-27 NASB
Now in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know what to pray for as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Here's the Ampliified version of the same verse....

Romans 8:26-27 AMP
26 In the same way the Spirit [comes to us and] helps us in our weakness. We do not know what prayer to offer or how to offer it as we should, but the Spirit Himself [knows our need and at the right time] intercedes on our behalf with sighs and groanings too deep for words. 27 And He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because the Spirit intercedes [before God] on behalf of God’s people in accordance with God’s will.

Who is the Spirit interceding to....if the Spirit is God???:rolleyes: is he interceding to himself????
 
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Philip James

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Amen. Do you know what is meant by the filioque"

Yes.

The Trinity doctrine does not bring unity but rather division.

Discussing the filouqe is pointless of one does not accept the trinity.

But it is not the barrier for full communion between us that you portray it as here..

Ill ask again, where is the apostolic community that does not hold to the Trinity?

He said in reply, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
 

Angelina

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Doesn't it seem like Jesus would have mentioned a 3rd party there, though?

That'd be awful rude of Him to claim that He and the Father were coming to live with us and bring along a 3rd, uninvited, unmentioned, guest. Wouldn't it? :p
Possibly @GEN2REV but I got baptized under such a Godhead so why wouldn't any other believer in Christ. Matthew 28:19 :) If we were baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, why would we only want the two? and why would Jesus commission his disciples to baptize in this way, if it were not true?
 

GEN2REV

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Possibly @GEN2REV but I got baptized under such a Godhead so why wouldn't any other believer in Christ. Matthew 28:19 :) If we were baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, why would we only want the two? and why would Jesus commission his disciples to baptize in this way, if it were not true?
Why did none of the disciples follow that pattern of baptism?

All Biblical examples of baptism are done in the name of Jesus Christ.

I'm still trying to figure that one out.

Did Jesus actually tell them that exactly, or did He possibly tell them that, meaning it in some symbolic way? I dunno.

But none of them baptized that way for whatever reason.
 
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Episkopos

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Yes.



Discussing the filouqe is pointless of one does not accept the trinity.

But it is not the barrier for full communion between us that you portray it as here..

Ill ask again, where is the apostolic community that does not hold to the Trinity?

He said in reply, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!


Do you consider Paul as being apostolic? Notice what he says...

"For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God."

Do you consider the spirit of a man as a separate person? Or do you agree with Paul that a spirit in a man works the same way that God's Spirit does?
 
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Episkopos

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I’m not completely convinced in the trinity. But I do have questions.
1 Corinthians 6:16-17 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. [17] But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Concerning flesh: is it mind, body and soul? Or is does this come from an trinity theology? If those joined unto the Lord is one spirit ..then is that one spirit with mind, body and soul?


We are indeed body soul and spirit. However our spirit is within our soul. The duality is that we are either influenced from within our spirits...or outside through our flesh. Good and evil are a duality not a trinity.
 

Angelina

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We are indeed body soul and spirit. However our spirit is within our soul. The duality is that we are either influenced from within our spirits...or outside through our flesh. Good and evil are a duality not a trinity.
See this is where we part ways in our understanding brother @Episkopos. I believe we are Tripartite beings.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Luke 1:46-47
46 And Mary said,
My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,


and I can go on......:)
 
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ScottA

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Do you consider Paul as being apostolic? Notice what he says...

"For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God."

Do you consider the spirit of a man as a separate person? Or do you agree with Paul that a spirit in a man works the same way that God's Spirit does?
Indeed, yes and no, the old man and the new.
 

Enoch111

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There is no Trinity....there is a Godhead (Elohim) of both Father and Son. That's it!
Of course there is a Trinity, and this was confirmed at the baptism of Christ -- the second person in the Godhead. So Jesus further confirm the Trinity in Matthew 28:19, and John confirmed it in 1 John 5:7 (KJB).
 
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VictoryinJesus

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We are indeed body soul and spirit. However our spirit is within our soul. The duality is that we are either influenced from within our spirits...or outside through our flesh. Good and evil are a duality not a trinity.

Good and evil are a duality not a trinity. I can’t really argue that. But God is not evil and good as in “duality” …but God is instead Good. You do make me think of double minded but God is not double minded?
 
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Episkopos

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Good and evil are a duality not a trinity. I can’t really argue that. But God is not evil and good as in “duality” …but God is instead Good. You do make me think of double minded but God is not double minded?


The truth is more nuanced than even that. Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Not the devil. God is the Creator of all things. We chose to live in a world OUTSIDE of eternal life....in the temporal world. Who created the temporal realm? God did.

God created the possibility of evil. Not the devil. God gave us options.

Notice this...

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Is 4:7

God is not evil at all. But once we rejected His covering love and life in order to live independently from Him in disobedience to Him...He had to put us somewhere.

We presently live in a simulation where evil is permitted....temporarily...to see if we will turn from OUR evil ways back to the living God. We are to break through into the eternal reality by faith in Christ....while we live here in this temporal realm that is a simulation of eternal things.
 

Cross8527

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You might want to study out the following passage a bit and see what conclusions you come to.

It appears to follow the pattern that Christ was establishing in the book of John with His repeated references to "I and the Father are one" John 10:30- type statements.

"If a man love Me, ... My Father will love him, and WE (both) will come unto him, and make OUR abode (home) with him."
John 14:21-23

This is how the Holy Spirit comes to live inside a believer's heart. And it appears the Holy Spirit is both the Father and the Son.
Interesting i can admit when i am wrong thank you for enlightening me my friend
 

lforrest

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Do you consider Paul as being apostolic? Notice what he says...

"For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God."

Do you consider the spirit of a man as a separate person? Or do you agree with Paul that a spirit in a man works the same way that God's Spirit does?
I think spirits defy conventional wisdom, as they function as the will of a person but are also independent persons separate from the whole.
 

Episkopos

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I think spirits defy conventional wisdom, as they function as the will of a person but are also independent persons separate from the whole.


If we see our spirits as empty vessels (like the lamps in the parable of the 10 virgins)...and God's Spirit as what is able to fill our spirits with His Spirit (as in getting FILLED with the Spirit)...then we will understand that we need oil from God's Spirit to be a light in the world.

This is not about persons...but about function. Spirits function ...ours as a vessel...God's as a quickening Spirit that pours His life, power, and presence into us.

Being born again by the Spirit awakens us to the spiritual reality. But it is only as we are filled with God's Spirit that we can FUNCTION as ambassadors for Christ.

God's Spirit is His functioning among us. It is like His hand....the hand of God. Do we worship God's hand or His function? No, we worship Him. God's hand is not a separate person from Him....it is part of Him.