Open Discussion of UR Chapter Three - God's character

[St. SteVen]

Probably one of the most important aspects of Ultimate Redemption (UR) is God's character.
cc: @GRACE ambassador --- but, all are invited to join the discussion.

Ultimate Redemption focuses on the mercy of God in judgement.
God's ultimate ministry of reconciliation. The restoration of all things.
The resolution of all things full circle back to the original creation.

The Bible-thumpers will want to limit the discussion to biblical proof. The hard facts, none of this emotional stuff.
And we can certainly look at some some scripture. But I would like to focus on what we already know about God.

Does your experience with God tell you that he is a fearful judge, or a loving Father?
Has he not shown love and care for you? Does not the life-giving rain fall on the lands of the righteous and sinners?
Does a sparrow fall without his notice? Consider how the flowers of the field are adorned, will he not clothe you as well?
The very hairs of your head are numbered. His knowledge and care for us is overwhelming.

Does this end at the afterlife?

 

[St. SteVen]

Wrote this on another thread. (link below)

Question: Does God use logic to control His emotions?

The whole concept of hell (eternal conscious torment) smacks of unbridled wrath and fury.
I don't mean to offend, but how should we process such cognitive dissonance?
That the God of love and mercy, the very source of the ministry of reconciliation,
should even conceive of such a horror, let alone plan and execute it.

The common apologetic that says, "His ways are higher than our ways.",
leaves me stunned. How can this way be higher, when by human understanding,
it is clearly lower? That the God who expects us to love our enemies,
would incinerate his own. And worse than that, torture them mercilessly for all eternity,
in the most sinister and sadistic way imaginable, with no purpose, or hope of escape.

Am I letting my emotions get the best of me here?

The answer of hell and its origins
Post #1,338

 

[Windmillcharge]

Am I letting my emotions get the best of me here?

Yes you are.

If judgement and he'll are meaningless, why did Jesus and the apostles talk about it?

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes you are.

If judgement and he'll are meaningless, why did Jesus and the apostles talk about it?

We may be butting heads over terminology.
I do believe in judgement and an age of correction/restoration/redemption before heaven.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Am I letting my emotions get the best of me here?

Yes you are.

Can you identify the emotions in my post?
That seems like such a knee-jerk reaction to the logical statements I presented.

 

[quietthinker]

Probably one of the most important aspects of Ultimate Redemption (UR) is God's character.
cc: @GRACE ambassador --- but, all are invited to join the discussion.

Ultimate Redemption focuses on the mercy of God in judgement.
God's ultimate ministry of reconciliation. The restoration of all things.
The resolution of all things full circle back to the original creation.

The Bible-thumpers will want to limit the discussion to biblical proof. The hard facts, none of this emotional stuff.
And we can certainly look at some some scripture. But I would like to focus on what we already know about God.

Does your experience with God tell you that he is a fearful judge, or a loving Father?
Has he not shown love and care for you? Does not the life-giving rain fall on the lands of the righteous and sinners?
Does a sparrow fall without his notice? Consider how the flowers of the field are adorned, will he not clothe you as well?
The very hairs of your head are numbered. His knowledge and care for us is overwhelming.

Does this end at the afterlife?

....and did not Jesus craft the story of the Prodigal Son? ....and who do we suppose the older brother represents?

 

[St. SteVen]

....and did not Jesus craft the story of the Prodigal Son? ....and who do we suppose the older brother represents?

That's a great point, thanks.

Perfect picture of the character of God the Father I am talking about.

 

[marks]

The Bible-thumpers will want to limit the discussion to biblical proof. The hard facts, none of this emotional stuff.
And we can certainly look at some some scripture. But I would like to focus on what we already know about God.

Does your experience with God tell you that he is a fearful judge, or a loving Father?

Human emotion and opinion means absolutely nothing in the face of Biblical declaration.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The whole concept of hell (eternal conscious torment) smacks of unbridled wrath and fury.

What of it? If that's God's wrath against the unrepentant, who are you to gainsay God?? And if you don't understand His reasons, then that's par for the course, as His ways fully transcend our ways. I wouldn't expect to understand why He does what He does.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The common apologetic that says, "His ways are higher than our ways.",
leaves me stunned. How can this way be higher, when by human understanding,
it is clearly lower?

Human understanding? Nix that. You judge His ways by what you think of your own. No good!

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

Human emotion and opinion means absolutely nothing in the face of Biblical declaration.

Is there a consensus on "Biblical declaration"?
Seems to be a LOT of opinion and emotion.

 

[St. SteVen]

What of it? If that's God's wrath against the unrepentant, who are you to gainsay God?? And if you don't understand His reasons, then that's par for the course, as His ways fully transcend our ways. I wouldn't expect to understand why He does what He does.

Again...

The common apologetic that says, "His ways are higher than our ways.",
leaves me stunned. How can this way be higher, when by human understanding,
it is clearly lower? That the God who expects us to love our enemies,
would incinerate his own. And worse than that, torture them mercilessly for all eternity,
in the most sinister and sadistic way imaginable, with no purpose, or hope of escape.

To which I will add...
Why would the transcendent God violate the human conscience he gave us to understand right and wrong?
There is no way to justify the claims against God that the church is making in His name.

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

 

[St. SteVen]

Human understanding? Nix that. You judge His ways by what you think of your own. No good!

They lied to us.
Fed us a bill of goods. Turned the good news into bad news.

 

[Patrick1966]

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

Yes, one must be saved by Jesus from God or else God (Jesus) will torture them day and night forever and ever and ever...

 

[quietthinker]

Human emotion and opinion means absolutely nothing in the face of Biblical declaration.

Much love!

.....and there will be plenty lost whose mantra is 'the bible, the bible!'

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, one must be saved by Jesus from God or else God (Jesus) will torture them day and night forever and ever and ever...

Read the account of Judas after his act of betrayal.....who tortured him? was it God?
When folk reject what they know is right the torture comes from themselves, not God.
Have we got it that wrong? God is in the Salvation business; life and love, joy and peace....not eternal torture. That is an invention of the evil one who maligns God and paints him with his own attributes.

John 10:10 'The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.'

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, one must be saved by Jesus from God or else God (Jesus) will torture them day and night forever and ever and ever...

Jesus is the full revelation of the Father. How then does Jesus save us from the Father?

 

[Patrick1966]

Read the account of Judas after his act of betrayal.....who tortured him? was it God?
When folk reject what they know is right the torture comes from themselves, not God.
Have we got it that wrong? God is in the Salvation business; life and love, joy and peace....not eternal torture. That is an invention of the evil one who maligns God and paints him with his own attributes.

John 10:10 'The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.'

Yes, God created BILLIONS of souls knowing that many of them would not pass his tests, and, being loving and merciful, made arrangements that those souls will experience suffering and anguish for all of eternity.

Nothing is impossible for God. For instance, when you and I are sitting around a campfire with God himself, holding hands and singing Kumbaya, God will simultaneously be in Hell inflicting unspeakable torture against BILLIONS of souls that weren't fortunate enough to receive the gift of faith.

Ephesians 2:8–9 affirms this: “By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Too bad for the lost souls that God didn't give them the gift of faith and so now they'll be tortured, day and night, FOREVER AND EVER! Too bad, so sad, but those are the breaks.

I wonder if God will let you and me go torture people in Hell. How about it?

 

[Patrick1966]

Jesus is the full revelation of the Father. How then does Jesus save us from the Father?

Believing in Jesus saves us from God the Father torturing us for all of eternity, or so many of my Christian brothers tell me.

 

[Patrick1966]

God is in the Salvation business; life and love, joy and peace....not eternal torture. That is an invention of the evil one who maligns God and paints him with his own attributes.

Yes, I agree with you. I'm mocking the absurd belief that God tortures people forever.