Open Discussion of UR Chapter Three - God's character

[Patrick1966]

You may be in luck.

Revelation 14:9-11 ESV
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Fortunately we have a correct translation and so we know that the rising smoke ceases to exist at the end of the ages and that the fire and brimstone will refine the wicked into holy children of God.

Revelation 14:9-11
Young's Literal Translation
9 And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, `If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,

10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,

11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

 

[St. SteVen]

think it was Aquinas who tried to argue that the joy of those in heaven will actually be increased by seeing the suffering of those in hell. It just goes to show that brilliance is not always good or to one's advantage, but by that point the horrendous doctrine was supported by earthly torture. If you didn't toe the line you could get a foretaste of the horrendous doctrine by the rack, the wheel, being drawn and quartered, or simply burned at the stake. But, happily, it was all for the glory of the God who is love. There was nothing amiss in that; it all made good sense.

Thanks. I was wondering where that quote was.
I had heard that burning at the stake was inspired by the hell doctrine.
Might as well get the heretic started on their forever burning by doing the work of God. (incinerating them)

 

[Patrick1966]

Thomas Aquinas was obviously a nutcase. And to think that many churches and schools are named after him. Bizarre.

Seven Teachings on Hell From St. Thomas Aquinas - Community in Mission

The teachings of the Lord on Hell are difficult, especially in today’s climate. The most difficult questions that arise relate to its eternal nature and how to square its existence with a God who is loving and rich in mercy. 1. Does God love the souls in Hell? Yes. How could they continue to...

blog.adw.org

 

[Windmillcharge]

We may be butting heads over terminology.
I do believe in judgement and an age of correction/restoration/redemption before heaven.

Have you actually talked to someone who rejects Jesus?

They literally reject what he stands for and do not want to recieve what he offers, to the point that they will view heaven as being hell.

 

[St. SteVen]

Have you actually talked to someone who rejects Jesus?

They literally reject what he stands for and do not want to recieve what he offers, to the point that they will view heaven as being hell.

Anyone who claims to hate God hasn't met him yet.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Anyone who claims to hate God hasn't met him yet.

And once they die it is too late.
Hebrews 9, given to men once to die, after that comes judgement.

 

[St. SteVen]

And once they die it is too late.
Hebrews 9, given to men once to die, after that comes judgement.

That doesn't mean it's "too late" from my perspective.
And there are no second chances, because there were no first chances.
In fact, nothing is left to chance.

We tend to forget that one of the possible outcomes of judgment is mercy.

Would the God that expects us to love our enemies incinerate his own?
Does He hold himself to a lower standard than he holds us to?

 

[dev553344]

Probably one of the most important aspects of Ultimate Redemption (UR) is God's character.
cc: @GRACE ambassador --- but, all are invited to join the discussion.

Ultimate Redemption focuses on the mercy of God in judgement.
God's ultimate ministry of reconciliation. The restoration of all things.
The resolution of all things full circle back to the original creation.

The Bible-thumpers will want to limit the discussion to biblical proof. The hard facts, none of this emotional stuff.
And we can certainly look at some some scripture. But I would like to focus on what we already know about God.

Does your experience with God tell you that he is a fearful judge, or a loving Father?
Has he not shown love and care for you? Does not the life-giving rain fall on the lands of the righteous and sinners?
Does a sparrow fall without his notice? Consider how the flowers of the field are adorned, will he not clothe you as well?
The very hairs of your head are numbered. His knowledge and care for us is overwhelming.

Does this end at the afterlife?

I have felt God's love and peace from very powerful communions with the Holy Spirit that far surpassed human ability or comprehension. In one such communion God confirmed that he only does good, and Satan only does evil. Something that has helped me to discern God.

 

[Grailhunter]

When i say Hell and Heaven are eternal destinations, then that is true.

Let me show you what i mean..

A man and a woman, who are married are sitting in a Church Pew, on Easter Sunday, tomorrow.
They go to church once a year. Many are like this, also.
They are listening to a Minister Preach the Cross, the Resurrection, the Gift of Salvation.
The Minister offers them Heaven....... Jesus is the only WAY there........The Minister tells them that The Cross is God's gift of Love and if they will come and take Christ by faith, believing, God will take them by new Birth.........and they will be SAVED, and will go to Heaven.

The woman, thinks...>"if i do that, i can't keep smoking and i'll have to join this stupid church".

The man thinks.....>"oh Thank you Jesus.......oh thank you God........thank you, i want to be saved".

He goes to the alter and kneels, but He believed in Christ in the PEW, before he even goes to the alter up front.......as that alter is really just to prove you are publicly confessing Christ. "with the heart you believe and confession is made with the mouth"....
He's kneeling, crying, saved.......joyful......changed....redeemed. Now a SON of GOD....born again.

The woman all this time..... is thinking..>"""wow, its already 12:05p, and im supposed to meet my girlfriend at the Steak & Burger, and this moron Pastor just keeps talking about JESUS< JESUS....... ugggg......can you ever stop"""""


The man who is saved and the woman who resisted the Holy Spirit, both died in a traffic wreck 5 mins after they left the Church.

The man Chose Heaven before He died.

The woman Chose Hell before she died.

Both were in their "right mind". = Free Will

That's how it is..... as the Cross is always there. Jesus is always calling...... but, if you wont go to Him, and die, you just chose Hell.
Don't blame God.

LOL Not worth the effort, Behold. Tell them they are right.....pat them on the back......hand them a bottle of barbeque sauce and send them on their way to Hell.

 

[St. SteVen]

I have felt God's love and peace from very powerful communions with the Holy Spirit that far surpassed human ability or comprehension. In one such communion God confirmed that he only does good, and Satan only does evil. Something that has helped me to discern God.

Thanks.
That's very refreshing.

Many live in fear and anxiety due to their religious burden.
Thinking that God loves them but, that he hates humankind in general.
Their fear is that suddenly they may transition from favor with God to a wrathful fury.

 

[dev553344]

Thanks.
That's very refreshing.

Many live in fear and anxiety due to their religious burden.
Thinking that God loves them but, that he hates humankind in general.
Their fear is that suddenly they may transition from favor with God to a wrathful fury.

Well God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in him has eternal life. So no I don't think God hates mankind. And yes I have heard some people suggesting such things on this forum. Too bitter for me to believe.

I think some people are anti-social, which is something that my psychologist strongly argues against. It's not mentally healthy to be anti-social.

We are to love our God and neighbors, not judge them as worthless to God.

Cheers and thanks for you input on the subject.

 

[Windmillcharge]

That doesn't mean it's "too late" from my perspective.
And there are no second chances, because there were no first chances.
In fact, nothing is left to chance.

We tend to forget that one of the possible outcomes of judgment is mercy.

Would the God that expects us to love our enemies incinerate his own?
Does He hold himself to a lower standard than he holds us to?

2 cor 6:2 today is the day of salvation and again after death comes judgement.

You seem to think that God's justice and mercy prev3nts him from punishing people.

You forget God owes us nothing. He does not have to save anyone.

God would be perfectly just if he had not sent Jesus and condemned us all.

 

[St. SteVen]

You forget God owes us nothing. He does not have to save anyone.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Perhaps you have children, or know someone who does? - LOL

Do parents owe their children anything?
Even mere humans have laws to prevent child neglect and abuse.
Is God subhuman in this regard?

 

[Windmillcharge]

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Perhaps you have children, or know someone who does? - LOL

Do parents owe their children anything?
Even mere humans have laws to prevent child neglect and abuse.
Is God subhuman in this regard?

Interesting that you judge God as if he is a human.

Have you never looked at how God has dealt with people, nations etc in the bible?
Does the concept of creator mean nothing to you.

God has given us everything. So what do you give back to him?
Certainly not the respect of a Holy, Just and Merciful God, as you accuse him of being less good than a human.

 

[Patrick1966]

Certainly not the respect of a Holy, Just and Merciful God, as you accuse him of being less good than a human.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Does your experience with God tell you that he is a fearful judge, or a loving Father?

Both.

 

[St. SteVen]

Interesting that you judge God as if he is a human.

Right. Should I choose a lower standard? Not sure what that would be.
Cosmic tyrant perhaps?

Have you never looked at how God has dealt with people, nations etc in the bible?
Does the concept of creator mean nothing to you.

God built the fence around the playground. Pretty sure he knew in advance what would happen.

God has given us everything. So what do you give back to him?
Certainly not the respect of a Holy, Just and Merciful God, as you accuse him of being less good than a human.

Is it not the bulk of Christianity that has the subhuman view of God?
We have a God-given human conscience to help us discern right and wrong.
I was saying that the common understanding of God, not I, makes him subhuman.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's the previous discussion.

You forget God owes us nothing. He does not have to save anyone.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Perhaps you have children, or know someone who does? - LOL

Do parents owe their children anything?
Even mere humans have laws to prevent child neglect and abuse.
Is God subhuman in this regard?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is it not the bulk of Christianity that has the subhuman view of God?

 

[St. SteVen]

View attachment 31446

Exactly. - LOL
Is it not the bulk of Christianity that has the subhuman view of God?

 

[St. SteVen]

Both.

Yikes!
What did God do to you that was like a fearful judge?

 

[St. SteVen]

2 cor 6:2 today is the day of salvation and again after death comes judgement.

Reminds me of a mixed metaphor. (or worse)

You are combining scriptures that don't go together,
and adding questionable interpretation in
an attempt to make a pseudo-biblical claim.

Regurgitating some evangelical apologetics.
Let's think through this, okay?

You seem to think that God's justice and mercy prev3nts him from punishing people.

From pointless discipline, yes. I don't think He behaves like an abusive father.
Correction, restoration and mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

You forget God owes us nothing. He does not have to save anyone.

Sounds like BAD parenting. Do you beleive God is subhuman?

God would be perfectly just if he had not sent Jesus and condemned us all.

No, That wouldn't be just at all.
Unless YOUR view of God is one who created a pile of maggots to throw on the campfire.
But saved a few to keep as pets, claiming they were made in his image. - LOL

If God did that to us, would that seem perfectly just to you?
Why do I even ask? That is what you are saying in essence, right?