Our hope for the Future
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- Jun 20, 2018
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Don't you know the Lord's Prayer? .......Thy Kingdom come.....on earth, as it is in heaven.
jeffweeder
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The foundation of the world prepared for Man was Eden not this fallen earth. There was no death, no curse and that is what Jesus has prepared for us. For the goats they have prepared for them the fire prepared for the devil. So, the timing of this judgment is obvious and occurs after the millennium when God throws the devil and his followers into the eternal lake of fire.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
- Jun 20, 2018
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The ethnic Jewish State of Israel will no longer exist after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Jeremiah 10:18
The citizens of God's Kingdom on earth, will all be rghteous Christian believers. Psalms 37:29
Well if you had read what I asked you to you would have seen it, Heb. 8:12 - "And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest." Does everyone on earth have knowledge of the Lord on a personal level? That will happen in the millennium.
A covenant "must" have at least two parties upon which both agree to do something, it's a contract. A promise is only done by one person to others, there is nothing the promised party must do to be the recipient of said promise. It's basic linguistics.
The bible says "For I am the LORD, I change not;" Jesus is the Word of God, thus He is in control of everything that is written in both the OT and the NT. He doesn't waiver from one reality to another. The only thing that changed between the testaments was our relationship to the law. The OT had the law, we have grace, all the other prophecies and promises given to Israel remain.
Think about what you said. Eden could not be the "foundation" of the world. In case you haven't realized it, a garden, no matter how perfect could be the base of the whole planet. The "world" is the earth from Gen. 1:1 (the foundation) the garden came after.
I would say the 144,000 could be included with the innumerable multitude, but the passage tells us the 144,000 are "of all the tribes of the children of Israel". That makes a distinction between Israel of old, before the advent of Christ, and the innumerable multitude from all the nations of the world who are saved after the advent of Christ. This passage significantly shows the impact of the cross and resurrection of Christ on earth. Before Christ there was only a remnant from the nation saved by grace through faith. But after Christ came to atone for sin and defeat death the number of people saved throughout the world is said to be innumerable.
The passage tells us the 144,000 are "of all the tribes of the children of Israel". That means they are Israel of faith before the advent of Christ. Because after Christ came there is no longer a distinction made between people of faith. People from all nations of the world who are of faith belong to the same body of Christ without distinction. IOW whether Jew or Gentile when we are of Christ, we belong to the Israel of God.
Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
After the 144,000 are sealed by the Holy Spirit they ascend to heaven where they, with the innumerable multitude go spiritually alive after we physically die believing. Because prior to Christ sending His Spirit at Pentecost, the Spirit while WITH Old Covenant saints was not IN them. Since it is the Spirit that quickens or gives us everlasting life through Christ, He must be IN us for us to ascend to heaven after death a spirit body. (1 Cor 15:44-50) In Rev 7 the Spirit is defined as "the four winds of the earth" that was not universally sent unto the earth until the saints of old were sealed. The angels that stand before God are about to begin to blow their trumpets of judgment upon the whole earth, but before they begin to blow these saints of old will be made spiritually alive by the Spirit of Christ and ascend with Christ to heaven.
John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Believers before Christ and after Christ are the Church, or the called out ones, belonging to the body of Christ. The only difference was they lived before the advent of Christ, looking forward to His coming, and we who live after the cross, look for His coming the second time to redeem His Church.
Rom. 11:25-32 - "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, And shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." The "all of Israel will be all that's left alive at the end of the 70th week. The 1/3 of Zech. 13:8-9. The 144,000 of Israel begin when the age of the gentiles ends w/ the rapture/resurrection.
Sorry, but OT believers are not part of the Body of Christ, they are the bride. Israeli believers from the NT to the rapture are part of the body of Christ but the OT saints combined w/ the Israelis of the millennium wil become the bride. It is impossible for the unity of the trinity to have separate brides. This is what the picture of the NJ is showing.
"dwell in the midst of thee", it is speaking of the millennial kingdom. I can't help it if you can't see it because it is the goal of all prophecy, it's about a basic as one can get, it's kindergarden prophecy. If you can't see the one basic foundation stone of Christ throughout the ages then all of your eschatology whatever it is isn't even close to being correct.
Again:
Do you think that God broke His promises when His Son took away the old promises to establish the New and Better Promises? Hebrews 8:6.
It appears that you do.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
I've been reading through the thread, you are doing well defending the view I have.
Romans 11 is a key chapter that distinquishes Israel from Gentile believers. God is not done with Israel, "all Israel will be saved" ( which is the remnant you mentioned on Zech. 12 &13).
What I have come to realize in the last few years is that this "Israel that will be saved, happens after he rapture of then Church. It has to, otherwise therenwould be none left to repopulate the earth.
When returns, every eye will see him "and they will mourn". Why would they mourn. Unbelievers mourn because they realize all of a sudden the Jesus is the Messiah they have been waiting for for thousands of years and and feel shame. And asude from the Jews (likely 5 million, which is 1/3), there will be many Gentiles whobdid notnreceive the Mark of the Beast and were on the fence about Christ - these left behind also will be kicking themselves for their lives of follish resistance and finally repent. So Israel is not the only group that will repolulate the earth. Confirmation of this is the fact that all the nations of the world come and visit Jesus in Jerusalem during the Millennial Kingdom. ( see Isaiah 2:2-4 ; Zechaiah 14:6-21)
Also Zephaniah 3:11
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jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
It was still as pristine and death free as the garden of Eden,
In the same way the New Jerusalen comes down onto a pristine NHNE.
Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away (vanished), and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, arrayed like a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and then I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “See! The tabernacle of God is among men, and He will live among them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them [as their God,] 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be death; there will no longer be sorrow and anguish, or crying, or pain; for the former order of things has passed away.”
5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true [they are accurate, incorruptible, and trustworthy].” 6 And He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the one who thirsts I will give [water] from the fountain of the water of life without cost.
7 He who overcomes [the world by adhering faithfully to Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior] will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But as for the cowards and unbelieving and abominable [who are devoid of character and personal integrity and practice or tolerate immorality], and murderers, and sorcerers [with intoxicating drugs], and idolaters and occultists [who practice and teach false religions], and all the liars [who knowingly deceive and twist truth], their part will be in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
The one who sits on the throne Is Jesus, who said this very thing in matt 25.
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 3
2 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me [with help and ministering care].’ 44 Then they also [in their turn] will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will reply to them, ‘I assure you and most solemnly say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these [my followers], you did not do it for Me.’
46 Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”
Here is a description of the 144,000 which extols Christ, His Church, and His Great Salvation through the ages.
Immeasurably more grand and glorious than a crew of sex-starved Jews.
The Church and the 144,000
Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
- Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
- Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
- Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
- Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
- Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
- Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
- Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
- Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
- Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
- Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
- Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
- Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)
- Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
- Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.
While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.
Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.
The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…
Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)
No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.
That is not what it is saying. Nothing in that scrip is implying every promise God ever made. There were promises made for keeping the law, there were many other promises regarding things outside of the law. The NC replaces the OC and the promises that went along w/ that particular covenant regarding the law and yes those promises are better. But the other promises about subjects that didn't include the law remain.
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