Pagan Tongues VS God's Real Gift of Tongues

[CharismaticLady]

We are called to not believe every spirit but test them in 1 John 4:1-4 and the tongues they bring in 1 John 4:5-6 to make sure we do not wind up speaking as the world speaks in tongues. This church in Revelation was doing it.

This passage has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit, let alone tongues. What a misinterpretation. It actually has to do with Gnostics and the gross error they believed regarding SIN. You have to know what the apostle means in order to not take scripture out of context as you just did, and apply it to tongues.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

So when already saved believers seek to receive the Holy Spirit again by a sign of tongues, what are they doing? Departing from faith He is in us.

Wow, again you don't know what scripture means, so apply anything you desire according to your blasphemy. Thyatira is the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox church - the two legs of iron. Jezebel represents the Babylonian mystery religion spoken of and prophesied in Jeremiah regarding the queen of heaven. The actual Jezebel that was married to Ahab was a high-priestess of the same Babylonian mystery religion which originated 400 years after the flood, long before anyone of that name. Every country has a facsimile of this mother and child religion, and during the church age of Thyatira, when paganism was outlawed, to help the transition to Christianity their goddess and son of Rome which was Venus and Cupid became Mary and the baby Jesus.

In Corinth (in Greece), the pagan goddess was Diana. These temples to these goddesses had temple prostitutes. Having sex with these demon possessed prostitutes is why Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

You have a lot to learn, and your bigotry against the Spirit and His gifts is blinding you.

 

[Enow]

Later in life? I was 29 1/2.

Extra phenomenon of receiving the Holy Spirit "again" later in life means later in life as a saved believer. That is what you testify of in how you got that tongue for "private use", do you not? That seems to be the testimony of most modern day tongue speakers in these latter days.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Not really. When you call a pagan supernatural tongue that was evil, but now good as if God's gift of tongues can switch mode and be used for private use, there is something wrong with that. God is not the author of confusion, but you seem to think He can be.

And so any miraculous stories coming from you is circumspect. They said the same thing to Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23 and that still got them denied by Him for being workers of iniquity.

It seems that you are totally committed to the personal belief that any practice of tongues in today's churches are pagan, so I can't say anything more about it. But you need to be careful that you don't accuse Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians of being pagan, because that might land you in hot water. I'm just warning you as a friend.

 

[Paul Christensen]

You are called to defend the faith in Jesus Christ. You are not called to defend tongues for how special you are from the rest of the body of Christ.

God would not manifest His gifts to support apostasy. He would expose it. Therefore all miraculous stories are circumspect.

A time may very well come when in the third watch, more believers will fall prey to the visitations of the spirits thinking that is the Holy Spirit when it is not. More and more, churches and believers see nothing wrong with praying to the Holy Spirit or honoring the Holy Spirit in worship and when those spirits come, they will take advantage of the misled congregation whereby many will lose self control and fall in that movement of the spirit.

Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

For everybody else, ask Jesus Christ now to keep your eyes on Him and trust Him to do it so He is keeping you awake in the third watch.

Case in point. Even though you are presented with substantive evidence that disproves your position on tongues, you insist on maintaining that it is not of God, which basically implies that I and my Christian friends are lying. and our testimonies are false. So that ends the conversation between you and me.

 

[Paul Christensen]

You are called to defend the faith in Jesus Christ. You are not called to defend tongues for how special you are from the rest of the body of Christ.

Who said that I am special from the rest of the body of Christ? I am about as special as you are! I am who Charles Spurgeon described: "I'm just a poor sinner and nothing at all, but Jesus Christ is my all in all." I'm not even a good Christian, as D Martyn Lloyd Jones says: "There are no good Christians, but just vile people who are saved by the grace of God."

So, you are more special than me!

 

[Paul Christensen]

Anybody can read Acts 2 nd chapter to know how God's gift of tongues was used that day on Pentecost, and it wasn't gibberish nonsense but a foreign language understood by devout foreign Jews visiting Jerusalem that day.

True.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Not really. When you call a pagan supernatural tongue that was evil, but now good as if God's gift of tongues can switch mode and be used for private use, there is something wrong with that. God is not the author of confusion, but you seem to think He can be.

And so any miraculous stories coming from you is circumspect. They said the same thing to Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23 and that still got them denied by Him for being workers of iniquity.

In what way is accusing me and other Pentecostals pagan, confused, evil, liars, and workers of iniquity, consistent with the fruit of the Spirit, ie: the spirit of Christ? Isn't the devil the accuser of the brethren? So, in light of that, do you really know what spirit you are of?

 

[Paul Christensen]

You defend tongues for private use gained by an extra phenomenon of what you believe was the Holy Spirit coming over you later in life, do you not?

We agree to disagree.

If Paul says that he speaks in tongues more than all the Corinthians put together, but in the church he would rather speak two words in understandable language so the others can be built up, where else except in the church would he speak in tongues? It is quite clear that Paul is saying that he speaks in tongues elsewhere and not in church. So, where does he speak in tongues if not in church as he clearly said?

 

[Enow]

It seems that you are totally committed to the personal belief that any practice of tongues in today's churches are pagan, so I can't say anything more about it. But you need to be careful that you don't accuse Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians of being pagan, because that might land you in hot water. I'm just warning you as a friend.

When a pagan comes in your assembly and speak in tongues ... would you know the difference?

 

[Enow]

Case in point. Even though you are presented with substantive evidence that disproves your position on tongues, you insist on maintaining that it is not of God, which basically implies that I and my Christian friends are lying. and our testimonies are false. So that ends the conversation between you and me.

Not necessarily so because Joyce Meyers believes she can interpret tongues by getting the feel of the gist of what is being said in tongues was how she interprets tongues. So that is why I cannot say anything one way and another, especially when it comes to stories that are hearsay.

There has been believers that insists they can speak in tongues and interpret that tongue just spoken thru themselves, and even though scripture says that is not how the Holy Spirit distribute the gifts, they may believe like Joyce Meyers does that they are actually interpreting their own tongues. Just as there are fakers, so are those who know a second or third language and interpret that language of what they spoke in "tongue" prior.

The problems with eye witness accounts is the same problem over the internet; you can't believe anything anybody says about themselves, let alone something sensational. When it does not align with scripture, I can judge that something is not right.

You say tongues are for prayer and I'd say you are wrong. I know it can be real for you, but that's me telling you that is not God's real gift of tongues and it will never copy cat the devil's tongues that had been going on before Pentecost and still going on today and now has crept into the churches where the focus is on the Holy Spirit at one tome or another so that whens educing spirits comes with their kind of tongues, nobody thinks the wiser of it, because they all want to believe that was the Holy Spirit that came over them later in life as a saved believer.

Signs of the times for why God is coming back as the Bridegroom to judge the House of God first and many will not be found abiding in Him that they will be denied by Him, disqualified, and left behind to resurrect after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House to serve the King of kings..

 

[Enow]

Who said that I am special from the rest of the body of Christ? I am about as special as you are! I am who Charles Spurgeon described: "I'm just a poor sinner and nothing at all, but Jesus Christ is my all in all." I'm not even a good Christian, as D Martyn Lloyd Jones says: "There are no good Christians, but just vile people who are saved by the grace of God."

So, you are more special than me!

Anyone using tongues for private use of said tongue gained by another drink of the One Spirit is deviating from the testimony we all supposed to have per 1 Corinthians 12:13. That is them saying they have something we don't have. That makes them more special and t would be hard for them to say otherwise without displaying false modesty.

My stance is to remind tongue speakers of their first love and when they had received the promise of the Spirit at the calling of the gospel when they had first believed and He has never left so they can know that spirit that came over later in life bringing that tongue for private use is not of Him at all.

Indeed, some tongue speakers claim they know holy laughter & slain in the spirit is not of Him but when one tried to stop it happening in church, one member bragged about it that he was slain in the spirit.

So if you are one of those that believe slain in the spirit is not of God along with holy laughter movement, and yet believes that tongue of yours for private use is of God, just remember why God would allow that to happen to you, because you believed the lie that you can receive the Holy Spirit later on in life as a saved believer after a sign, even the sign of tongues. Maybe then, God will wake you up for you to call on Him to save you from that.

 

[Paul Christensen]

When a pagan comes in your assembly and speak in tongues ... would you know the difference?

Yes. It would have quite a different ring to it. Also, members of the congregation would know he is a pagan because of his general attitude and speech. Also, Pentecostals and Charismatics are very astute at discerning the spirit of a person.

A pagan comes into your assembly, gets up and shares a word from the Bible with you. Would you know the difference? The devil knows the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and believes every word of it. He could inspire a person to preach from it and be very convincing.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Not necessarily so because Joyce Meyers believes she can interpret tongues by getting the feel of the gist of what is being said in tongues was how she interprets tongues. So that is why I cannot say anything one way and another, especially when it comes to stories that are hearsay.

There has been believers that insists they can speak in tongues and interpret that tongue just spoken thru themselves, and even though scripture says that is not how the Holy Spirit distribute the gifts, they may believe like Joyce Meyers does that they are actually interpreting their own tongues. Just as there are fakers, so are those who know a second or third language and interpret that language of what they spoke in "tongue" prior.

The problems with eye witness accounts is the same problem over the internet; you can't believe anything anybody says about themselves, let alone something sensational. When it does not align with scripture, I can judge that something is not right.

You say tongues are for prayer and I'd say you are wrong. I know it can be real for you, but that's me telling you that is not God's real gift of tongues and it will never copy cat the devil's tongues that had been going on before Pentecost and still going on today and now has crept into the churches where the focus is on the Holy Spirit at one tome or another so that whens educing spirits comes with their kind of tongues, nobody thinks the wiser of it, because they all want to believe that was the Holy Spirit that came over them later in life as a saved believer.

Signs of the times for why God is coming back as the Bridegroom to judge the House of God first and many will not be found abiding in Him that they will be denied by Him, disqualified, and left behind to resurrect after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House to serve the King of kings..

Most ordinary Charismatics view Joyce Meyer as a false teacher who teaches according to the occult teaching of Norman Vincent Peale's false positive thinking doctrine. So using her as an example causes your "plane" to crash right after take-off!

You haven't addressed my question about where Paul spoke in tongues more than the rest of the Corinthians put together if he never, as he said, spoke it in church.

What I do in my private prayer time with the Lord has nothing to do with anyone else, and is none of their business. So your judgment of me in that regard is invalid.

 

[Enow]

Yes. It would have quite a different ring to it. Also, members of the congregation would know he is a pagan because of his general attitude and speech. Also, Pentecostals and Charismatics are very astute at discerning the spirit of a person.

A pagan comes into your assembly, gets up and shares a word from the Bible with you. Would you know the difference? The devil knows the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and believes every word of it. He could inspire a person to preach from it and be very convincing.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Thing is, a pagan using scripture in the wrong way can be exposed by the scripture. A pagan using tongues, would not be so easily exposed.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Anyone using tongues for private use of said tongue gained by another drink of the One Spirit is deviating from the testimony we all supposed to have per 1 Corinthians 12:13. That is them saying they have something we don't have. That makes them more special and t would be hard for them to say otherwise without displaying false modesty.

My stance is to remind tongue speakers of their first love and when they had received the promise of the Spirit at the calling of the gospel when they had first believed and He has never left so they can know that spirit that came over later in life bringing that tongue for private use is not of Him at all.

Indeed, some tongue speakers claim they know holy laughter & slain in the spirit is not of Him but when one tried to stop it happening in church, one member bragged about it that he was slain in the spirit.

So if you are one of those that believe slain in the spirit is not of God along with holy laughter movement, and yet believes that tongue of yours for private use is of God, just remember why God would allow that to happen to you, because you believed the lie that you can receive the Holy Spirit later on in life as a saved believer after a sign, even the sign of tongues. Maybe then, God will wake you up for you to call on Him to save you from that.

Most of my Pentecostal friends just enjoy worshiping and fellowshiping with God in the way they do, and they are generally not bothered about others outside of their faith community. In all of my 53 years in the faith, I have never heard anyone attacking any of the other Evangelical churches, but I have witnessed many of Evangelical churches viciously attacking Pentecostals.

It has been the same on the other forums I have participated in. I have witnessed some of the most vicious, malicious, angry, judgmental attacks that I have ever heard anywhere, directed at Pentecostals. Where is the spirit of Christ in that? I find it difficult to believe that such people are actually saved, because the Scripture says that those who don't have the spirit of Christ are none of His. Perhaps these malicious attackers will stand before Christ one day and bleat: "Lord, Lord..." and the Lord will say, "I never know you. Depart from Me you workers of iniquity".

And yet, these ungodly, malicious attackers will say that this will happen to Pentecostals, who in my experience, have exhibited more of the spirit of Christ toward those who attack them. I do not believe that any genuine convert to Christ will attack Pentecostals and Charismatics in the way that these malicious, angry, spiteful, judgemental people do. They may have the "Christian" badge and pride themselves as been faithful church-goers and keeping to "sound" doctrine, but their conduct just makes them religious hypocrites.

There is only one Christ, one faith, and one baptism, and we all drink of the same Holy Spirit, whether some pray in tongues and others don't. Paul says, "Do all speak in tongues? Do all prophesy?" Who cares if they do or don't? Genuine converts to Christ are loving, joyful, peaceable, faithful, gentle, kind, patient, good, and self-controlled. That is the evidence.

I am part of a semi-liberal Methodist/Presbyterian Union church. None of the others pray in tongues (as far as I know). No one speaks out in tongues in the services. Yet I don't think I am born again better than any of them. We are all equal - vile sinners saved by the grace of God.

If you think you are better than that, then you are a better man than me, Gunga Din!

 

[Enow]

Most ordinary Charismatics view Joyce Meyer as a false teacher who teaches according to the occult teaching of Norman Vincent Peale's false positive thinking doctrine. So using her as an example causes your "plane" to crash right after take-off!

You may be surprise to find others having that mentality and not necessarily learning it from them either.

You haven't addressed my question about where Paul spoke in tongues more than the rest of the Corinthians put together if he never, as he said, spoke it in church.

2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

That means Paul speaking about tongues for private use cannot be confirmed by others unless he was not alone, but in the assembly. Thus in no way was Paul talking about tongues for private use for that would be a false witness.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

That is another point about sharing anything on the internet regarding the spectacular.

What I do in my private prayer time with the Lord has nothing to do with anyone else, and is none of their business. So your judgment of me in that regard is invalid.

Unfortunately, you are missing the reproofs below.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

No exception. Paul goes on, reproving any notion that tongues can be for private use as if deviating from the truth in verse 7 above..

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many........ 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

For you to say tongues are for private use, those scripture above is telling you why that is not God's gift of tongues at all, but only He can help you see that truth in His words.

 

[Paul Christensen]

You may be surprise to find others having that mentality and not necessarily learning it from them either.



2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

That means Paul speaking about tongues for private use cannot be confirmed by others unless he was not alone, but in the assembly. Thus in no way was Paul talking about tongues for private use for that would be a false witness.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

That is another point about sharing anything on the internet regarding the spectacular.



Unfortunately, you are missing the reproofs below.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

No exception. Paul goes on, reproving any notion that tongues can be for private use as if deviating from the truth in verse 7 above..

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many........ 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

For you to say tongues are for private use, those scripture above is telling you why that is not God's gift of tongues at all, but only He can help you see that truth in His words.

So you are saying that Paul is lying when he says that he prays in tongues more than them all but not in the church? You seem to avoiding a direct answer to that question by quoting random verses out of context.

I once had a Mormon tell me that if I sought God He would show me the truth!

 

[Paul Christensen]

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Thing is, a pagan using scripture in the wrong way can be exposed by the scripture. A pagan using tongues, would not be so easily exposed.

Having had at least 12 years as a member and on the leadership of a Pentecostal church, I think I have a pretty good idea of the way Pentecostals think - from the inside. It is one thing trying to understand Pentecostalism from the outside looking in, but quite another being an integral part of it over quite a number of years.

I am quite aware of the good, bad, and ugly sides of Pentecostalism. I left my last Pentecostal church because I became disillusioned with it because it did tend to play on one string, and because I subscribed to Puritan Calvinist teaching, I was sidelined by the mainly Arminians who did not agree with my theology. I also noticed that as time went on from the late 1960s when I first joined up, until 1978 when I left it, the foundations of the gospel of Christ were preached less and less.

I notice that in the mainstream Charismatic movement, especially in churches influenced by Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, and Creflo Dollar, the basic gospel of Christ is never preached, and anyone who gets up to remind people that they need to have faith in Jesus who died on the cross for their sins and to repent, are actually picked up and thrown out of their services by the security guards. Once woman preacher told one such person that he had a demon because he tried to tell the people to have faith in the real Jesus of the Bible who died for them on the cross!

So, I didn't come down in the last shower about my view of the current Charismatic movement. I know that it has been seriously invaded by paganism and the occult, and I am not backward in coming forward to express my concerns about it.

So if you are speaking about the paganised and the occult influences in the Charismatic movement, you are preaching to the choir. But basic, sound Pentecostal theology is basically the Westminister Confession of Faith, plus the belief in the continuance of the gifts of the Spirit. The problem with much of the public (and Youtube) face of the Charismatic movement is that it appears to depart from those foundations and to adopt "new revelation" coming from the "voice of the Spirit" that is not found in the New Testament.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Extra phenomenon of receiving the Holy Spirit "again" later in life means later in life as a saved believer. That is what you testify of in how you got that tongue for "private use", do you not? That seems to be the testimony of most modern day tongue speakers in these latter days.

No, I got tongues on the same night I was born again and baptized with the Holy Spirit. They are one and the same. That is why it is disturbing to realize that for a little over the first two decades of my life going to church from an infant, I was not saved. But knowing what I know now, I don't find it strange when I look at the two denominations I was in then - both Cessationist denominations who believed speaking in tongues was of the devil - believing blasphemy. During that whole time I never received one answer to prayer. Now, all my prayers are answered. Why? Because now I'm a child of God.

 

[Daciple]

I honestly do not see the infatuation with Praying in Tongues as the Pentecostal Movement and other Charismatic groups perceive it. So lets set aside the facts and the demonstration from the Bible that to Pray in Tongues means to pray in a KNOWN Foreign Language for the sole purpose to be a sign to the unbeliever so they can understand the Gospel and believe it unto Salvation. Lets set that aside and believe that this gibberish babbling nonsense is somehow close to or is legit. What is the purpose that it serves?

We can see 99% of the time in these Churches there are zero interpreters, and there are zero people that dont already comprehend the English Language, so in all of these instances, what exactly is the point of having entire Congregations babbling nonsense that absolutely no one can understand or discern?

I dont believe in the idea of a "Prayer Language" but lets pretend its legit, what is the point of it? How on Earth does you babbling nonsense that even YOU dont understand help or benefit you in anyway? There is zero reason to babble nonsense, it doesnt actually edify you whatsoever. If you can not discern or understand what you are saying, then why on Earth waste your time? Why not Pray in the Spirit legit Prayers where you KNOW what youre praying, so it can edify you?

Lets say I can babble nonsense and it makes sense to God, how can it benefit me? Is God going to answer or move in that Prayer? How can I know if He is or isnt? Seriously it seems so unreasonable in every facet that it boggles my mind that people are so enamored with doing it.

I would however understand and see the reasoning of it, if it was what the Bible says it is, which is when a person speaks in an unknown to them but a real legit language so that someone who doesnt speak English can hear the Gospel in their language and be saved. That is amazing, that is benefical, that brings Glory to God. Babbling nonsense that you nor anyone else understands does nothing at all...

But to each their own, IDC what you do, as long as dont tie this false ideology to Salvation, if you start preaching that you have to babble nonsense in order to show your Saved, well now you are preaching a False Gospel, you should be marked and avoided at all costs...