Physical Kingdom Problems

[Enoch111]

Jesus’ kingdom is spiritual. And this is a problem for the physical kingdom views of a Millennium.

You've already said this a dozen times. It is a problem for unbelieving Christians, but not for Christ.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Nothing remains needing fulfillment before Christ returns.

i don't agree. Paul addressed a problem at the church in Thessalonia where it sounds to me like they had been disturbed by someone telling them the gathering together of the living and dead in Christ had already occured. He said to them, don't be so easily disturbed- remember when I told you the man of sin will come first and the falling away? I think he was telling them they must see this man appear, and must see many begin to fall away to him before the gathering. THat's how I view it anyway.

 

[Enoch111]

I believe we are presently living in the post Christian era after Satan's release.

This is COMPLETELY FALSE but that is how Amillennialists make nonsense out of Scripture.

 

[Dave L]

i don't agree. Paul addressed a problem at the church in Thessalonia where it sounds to me like they had been disturbed by someone telling them the gathering together of the living and dead in Christ had already occured. He said to them, don't be so easily disturbed- remember when I told you the man of sin will come first and the falling away? I think he was telling them they must see this man appear, and must see many begin to fall away to him before the gathering. THat's how I view it anyway.

This has been happening throughout church history. The man of sin clearly identified as the Papacy according to most of the Reformation and post-reformation creed, including Methodists and English Baptists.

 

[Dave L]

This is COMPLETELY FALSE but that is how Amillennialists make nonsense out of Scripture.

If you have direct quotes from scripture saying anything must yet happen, post them....

 

[Dave L]

You've already said this a dozen times. It is a problem for unbelieving Christians, but not for Christ.

Only the born again can see it.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)

 

[Enoch111]

If you have direct quotes from scripture saying anything must yet happen, post them....

I could post dozens of Scriptures, but you would simply change their meaning to fit your false ideas (inherited from the Catholic church).

Unless you are willing to discard nonsense when face with Scripture, it would be unprofitable.

 

[Dave L]

I could post dozens of Scriptures, but you would simply change their meaning to fit your false ideas (inherited from the Catholic church).

Unless you are willing to discard nonsense when face with Scripture, it would be unprofitable.

But none would directly support your view.

 

[Enoch111]

Only the born again can see it.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)

So now you are accusing Christians who reject your nonsense as not being born again? You are treading on dangerous ground.

Those who are truly born again believe every word of God, and do not dodge Bible truth when it exposes their false beliefs.

 

[Dave L]

So now you are accusing Christians who reject your nonsense as not being born again? You are treading on dangerous ground.

Those who are truly born again believe every word of God, and do not dodge Bible truth when it exposes their false beliefs.

But only the born again can see the present kingdom.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus says only the Father knows this.

And the Lord can return any day now.

bc God only knows when you are going to see that Christ has never gone anywhere, Dave,
and that you cannot Quote the Lord, Returning anywhere
except those 2 places you don't like

 

[Dave L]

bc God only knows when you are going to see that Christ has never gone anywhere, Dave,
and that you cannot Quote the Lord, Returning anywhere
except those 2 places you don't like

SECOND COMING The expected return of Christ to earth at the end of the present age.


I. Terminology

Although it does not occur in the New Testament, “second coming” has become the most common popular term for Christ’s expected return. Common New Testament terms for the second coming are Gk. parousía “presence, coming” (e.g., Matt. 24:3; 1 Thess. 2:19; 5:23; Jas. 5:7–8; 1 John 2:28), apokálypsis “revelation” (1 Cor. 1:7; 2 Thess. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:7, 13; 4:13), and epipháneia “appearing” (2 Thess. 2:8; 1 Tim. 6:14; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8; Titus 2:13). “Second coming” is an appropriate term because parousía and epipháneia are also used of Christ’s (first) appearance in the first century A.D. (2 Tim. 1:10; 2 Pet. 1:16). Gk. deúteros “second” is used with reference to the return of Christ at Heb. 9:28.
In the Synoptic Gospels Jesus often calls himself “the Son of man” when speaking of his second coming (e.g., Matt. 10:23; 16:27–28; 24:27; 25:31; 26:64; Luke 17:30; see SON OF MAN). The frequency of the word “day” where the New Testament refers to Christ’s second coming arises from the interpretation of “the day of the Lord” heralded by the Old Testament prophets as meaning the day of Christ’s return (cf. Acts 2:20; see DAY OF THE LORD).


II. New Testament

In his teachings Jesus contrasted his first coming and the second coming. In the first, less conspicuous coming of Jesus, the kingdom of God was present but hidden (Matt. 13:31–33); in the Second, Christ’s presence and the triumph of God’s kingdom will be obvious to all and will be “with power and great glory” (24:27–30; cf. Rev. 1:7). In the interim between the first coming and the second Christ is understood to be present with God in heaven (Acts 7:55–56; Eph. 1:20). The second coming is described as Christ’s descent from heaven, sometimes “on” or “with” the clouds (Matt. 24:30; 26:64; Acts 1:9, 11; 1 Thess. 1:10; 4:16–17).
The return of Christ is one of the eschatological events that will bring the present age to a close and that include also the resurrection of the righteous (1 Cor. 15:23) and all mankind (John 5:28–29; Acts 24:14–15), the gathering and vindication of God’s people (Matt. 24:31; Luke 18:7–8; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16–17; 2 Thess. 2:1), the defeat of evil (1 Cor. 15:24; 2 Thess. 2:8), the judgment of all, and the establishment of God’s eternal rule (1 Cor. 15:24–28; 2 Tim. 4:1). With these other events, the second coming is thought of both as a hope in the midst of earthly suffering, especially persecution (2 Thess. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:13), and, because judgment and the rewarding of God’s faithful people are linked with it, as the motivation for right living (Matt. 16:26–27; 25:31–46; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8; 1 John 2:28).
The question of when Christ’s return would occur arose in the early Church, just as it has in later generations. When his disciples posed the question (Matt. 24:3), Jesus spoke of signs, primarily related to the persecution of the witnesses for Christ, the destruction of Jerusalem, and false claims that would arise, rather than to the second coming (vv. 4–35). The main focus of Jesus’ answer concerning the time of his second coming was that it cannot be known (vv. 36–44), hence the disciples must be prepared (vv. 45–51).
Certain recorded sayings of Jesus may have led some to expect his return during the first Christian generation (16:28; 24:33–34). The fact that he did not return in the first or second generation did apparently pose a problem for some Christians (2 Pet. 3:3–7). Paul’s view of whether he would be alive when Christ returned may have changed during his career (cf. 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:51–52; 2 Cor. 5:1–4; Phil. 1:20–26; 2 Tim. 4:6–8); in an early letter he explains that certain events were yet to happen before Christ’s return (2 Thess. 2:3–4), and in a later letter he depicts Christ’s return as “at hand” (Phil. 4:5; cf. Rom. 13:11–12; Jas. 5:8). Prayers for Christ’s return appear in the New Testament (1 Cor. 16:22; Rev. 22:20; see MARANATHA).
See ESCHATOLOGY.
Bibliography. G. C. Berkouwer, The Return of Christ (Grand Rapids: 1972); A. A. Hoekema, The Bible and the Future (Grand Rapids: 1979).


Myers, A. C. (1987). In The Eerdmans Bible dictionary (pp. 920–921). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I could post dozens of Scriptures, but you would simply change their meaning to fit your false ideas (inherited from the Catholic church).

Unless you are willing to discard nonsense when face with Scripture, it would be unprofitable.

Enoch, the way you are speaking to others is what is unprofitable brother. Could we talk calmly? Aren't you the one who said that to me the other day when I was speaking harshly? I appreciated you speaking to me about my behavior.

 

[bbyrd009]

SECOND COMING The expected return of Christ to earth at the end of the present age.


I. Terminology

Although it does not occur in the New Testament, “second coming” has become the most common popular term for Christ’s expected return. Common New Testament terms for the second coming are Gk. parousía “presence, coming” (e.g., Matt. 24:3; 1 Thess. 2:19; 5:23; Jas. 5:7–8; 1 John 2:28), apokálypsis “revelation” (1 Cor. 1:7; 2 Thess. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:7, 13; 4:13), and epipháneia “appearing” (2 Thess. 2:8; 1 Tim. 6:14; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8; Titus 2:13). “Second coming” is an appropriate term because parousía and epipháneia are also used of Christ’s (first) appearance in the first century A.D. (2 Tim. 1:10; 2 Pet. 1:16). Gk. deúteros “second” is used with reference to the return of Christ at Heb. 9:28.
In the Synoptic Gospels Jesus often calls himself “the Son of man” when speaking of his second coming (e.g., Matt. 10:23; 16:27–28; 24:27; 25:31; 26:64; Luke 17:30; see SON OF MAN). The frequency of the word “day” where the New Testament refers to Christ’s second coming arises from the interpretation of “the day of the Lord” heralded by the Old Testament prophets as meaning the day of Christ’s return (cf. Acts 2:20; see DAY OF THE LORD).


II. New Testament

In his teachings Jesus contrasted his first coming and the second coming. In the first, less conspicuous coming of Jesus, the kingdom of God was present but hidden (Matt. 13:31–33); in the Second, Christ’s presence and the triumph of God’s kingdom will be obvious to all and will be “with power and great glory” (24:27–30; cf. Rev. 1:7). In the interim between the first coming and the second Christ is understood to be present with God in heaven (Acts 7:55–56; Eph. 1:20). The second coming is described as Christ’s descent from heaven, sometimes “on” or “with” the clouds (Matt. 24:30; 26:64; Acts 1:9, 11; 1 Thess. 1:10; 4:16–17).
The return of Christ is one of the eschatological events that will bring the present age to a close and that include also the resurrection of the righteous (1 Cor. 15:23) and all mankind (John 5:28–29; Acts 24:14–15), the gathering and vindication of God’s people (Matt. 24:31; Luke 18:7–8; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16–17; 2 Thess. 2:1), the defeat of evil (1 Cor. 15:24; 2 Thess. 2:8), the judgment of all, and the establishment of God’s eternal rule (1 Cor. 15:24–28; 2 Tim. 4:1). With these other events, the second coming is thought of both as a hope in the midst of earthly suffering, especially persecution (2 Thess. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:13), and, because judgment and the rewarding of God’s faithful people are linked with it, as the motivation for right living (Matt. 16:26–27; 25:31–46; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8; 1 John 2:28).
The question of when Christ’s return would occur arose in the early Church, just as it has in later generations. When his disciples posed the question (Matt. 24:3), Jesus spoke of signs, primarily related to the persecution of the witnesses for Christ, the destruction of Jerusalem, and false claims that would arise, rather than to the second coming (vv. 4–35). The main focus of Jesus’ answer concerning the time of his second coming was that it cannot be known (vv. 36–44), hence the disciples must be prepared (vv. 45–51).
Certain recorded sayings of Jesus may have led some to expect his return during the first Christian generation (16:28; 24:33–34). The fact that he did not return in the first or second generation did apparently pose a problem for some Christians (2 Pet. 3:3–7). Paul’s view of whether he would be alive when Christ returned may have changed during his career (cf. 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:51–52; 2 Cor. 5:1–4; Phil. 1:20–26; 2 Tim. 4:6–8); in an early letter he explains that certain events were yet to happen before Christ’s return (2 Thess. 2:3–4), and in a later letter he depicts Christ’s return as “at hand” (Phil. 4:5; cf. Rom. 13:11–12; Jas. 5:8). Prayers for Christ’s return appear in the New Testament (1 Cor. 16:22; Rev. 22:20; see MARANATHA).
See ESCHATOLOGY.
Bibliography. G. C. Berkouwer, The Return of Christ (Grand Rapids: 1972); A. A. Hoekema, The Bible and the Future (Grand Rapids: 1979).


Myers, A. C. (1987). In The Eerdmans Bible dictionary (pp. 920–921). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

yes Dave, i am aware of what the blind see ok, none of them can Quote Jesus Returning either now can they

 

[Dave L]

yes Dave, i am aware of what the blind see ok, none of them can Quote Jesus Returning either now can they

I just gave you a page full of scriptures about the second coming. “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”
(John 14:1-3)

 

[bbyrd009]

I just gave you a page full of scriptures about the second coming.

gee, but ya can't Quote "Jesus Returning" even once Dave? Not a single time?
you know when they say is the best time to stop digging right Dave

Return to Me, and I will return to you

 

[ScottA]

Jesus says only the Father knows this.

Exactly.

 

[Dave L]

gee, but ya can't Quote "Jesus Returning" even once Dave? Not a single time?
you know when they say is the best time to stop digging right Dave

Return to Me, and I will return to you

OKaaaay I provided a direct quote plus many scriptures about Jesus' return. Can you give a direct quote saying he won't be returning bodily? Granted, Jesus is God and therefore everywhere present. But scripture claims a BODILY return of Christ on the last day.

 

[bbyrd009]

OKaaaay I provided a direct quote plus many scriptures about Jesus' return.

didn't see shuvu in there once Dave, sorry

 

[Dave L]

didn't see shuvu in there once Dave, sorry

That's no excuse for not being able to support your claims.