Please explain this.

[Lady Crosstalk]

Anyone can believe Jesus (2:23)...

Umm--no, that's not what Jesus Himself taught: "...No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:43-44)

...but the question is, Does Jesus believe in them?

Where in the Bible did you get THAT bit of theology? After the previous verse says that many came to believe in Him this is what is said in John 2:24-25---> But Jesus didn't trust them because He knew human nature. No one needed to tell Him what mankind is really like."

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Hey there Lady...watch your mouth...

No bad language on this Site

Oops! Sorry, B.G. Didn't mean you.

 

[ScottA]

You never get to your destination...
unless you make the journey.

The journey is being born in the flesh, which is over once a person is [actually] born again of the spirit of God.

 

[marks]

Hey there Lady...watch your mouth...

No bad language on this Site

LOL!

I was waiting for that! Or for something!

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The journey is being born in the flesh, which is over once a person is [actually] born again of the spirit of God.

Yes. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (Galatians 2:20-21)

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, well, you know the problem with John 6:47...
Apparently you like to repeat without moving forward.

That verse does not work.
And I've told you why.

Not that I'm aware of.

John 3:36... He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Disobedience, here, is said to be the result of unbelief.

It is not that the person has the wrath of God abiding on them because they disobeyed. Rather, the wrath of the Lord abides on them because they are not believing in Jesus...and the result is disobedience.

Let me make my position clearer to you. I believe that a saving faith will always produce obedience if given the opportunity.

But scripture is clear that we are not saved through our obedience. We are saved by the grace of God, through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

On one side of the equation is faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. On the other side is salvation and obedience.

FAITH IN JESUS = SALVATION + OBEDIENCE

-OBEDIENCE = -OBEDIENCE

FAITH IN JESUS - OBEDIENCE = SALVATION.

This is what is basically declared in Romans 4:5-6.

Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

(You could look at it this way:

FAITH IN JESUS - OBEDIENCE = SALVATION

+OBEDIENCE = +OBEDIENCE

FAITH IN JESUS = SALVATION + OBEDIENCE)

If on the other hand you have the equation

FAITH + OBEDIENCE = SALVATION

-OBEDIENCE = -OBEDIENCE

FAITH = SALVATION - OBEDIENCE

Now you have a life that is devoid of obedience, because you have placed obedience on the wrong side of the equation.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Hey--I've got an idea. Let's post a "good works calculator". We could enter our good works in it and it would tell us how many heavenly points we have earned. For example, we could get maybe 5 points for escorting an old lady across a lightly traveled side street. BUT a really impressive number of points could be gained by hoisting an old lady on one's shoulders (make sure you pick a skinny one) and sprinting across a multi-lane highway.

 

[ScottA]

Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Amen!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Once again, faith is not works of the law. Once again, God chose by grace, through faith.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Its men who say faith just means trust that He died and not trust in anything else Jesus said.

 

[justbyfaith]

Its men who say faith just means trust that He died and not trust in anything else Jesus said.

Living and saving faith = a relationship with the living Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does teach that if we keep one thing only (the gospel) in memory (that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the scriptures), we are saved; and also stand in that faith.

But of course, if He is risen, then He is Lord and He has a say over what you do in your life.

Nevertheless it is the gospel mentioned above that is to be the object of our faith if we are going to be saved; and nothing else is required.

Being redeemed by such complete forgiveness (in that He died for our sins) will produce a love in the heart of the one who is forgiven (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5). This love, which is not in word or in tongue only but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18), is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6).

Nevertheless it is brought about through the righteousness of faith (see Philippians 3:9, Romans 3:21-24).

Now, an exhortation, in that I have repeated this concept perhaps one too many times.

In 2 Timothy 4, it is written that the time will come when men will not endure sound doctrine.

It does not mean that we, as faithful preachers, are supposed to cease from preaching it.

 

[brakelite]

OK,,,so when do YOU believe Abraham was declared righteous by God?
When he left his home and obeyed God...
or in Genesis 15:6?
(we were discussing Genesis BTW).

WADR we are not discussing Genesis. We are discussing Abraham. Abraham was declared righteous the moment he accepted what God said was true.
But God did not bless Abraham because of his faith.
KJV Genesis 26
3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4 and I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed:
5 because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Abraham, or rather his progeny and indirectly all of us, were blessed because God chose to bless us... But God could only bless us because Abraham obeyed Him.
Now apply that same lesson to us. What promises are you trusting in and what are you doing that validates that trust?

I can't believe there are 111 more posts after the one you quoted... Looks like I'm going to be reading for some time.

 

[brakelite]

The Law is for the Lawless, not the righteous.

Yet if a professing Christian is disobedient, sinning, ungodly, unholy or profane, a liar, and exchanging the holy for the profane, (and who would declare the are no such ones, even ourselves perhaps to a certain extent) would not the law be for him? When we say the law is not for a righteous man, are we claiming it is for a man accounted righteous, or a man practicing righteousness? Or both?

 

[farouk]

Yet if a professing Christian is disobedient, sinning, ungodly, unholy or profane, a liar, and exchanging the holy for the profane, (and who would declare the are no such ones, even ourselves perhaps to a certain extent) would not the law be for him? When we say the law is not for a righteous man, are we claiming it is for a man accounted righteous, or a man practicing righteousness? Or both?

The law is our schoolmaster - pedagogue - to lead us to Christ, but we then don't go back under the law... (Galatians).

 

[brakelite]

Those that love God TRY not to do wrong and live by love and so do not need the rules.

How is all your trying going for you? When you compare your life to all ten commandments, how do you stand up? If you Gail even in one point, are you not then guilty of all and therefore need the law because of your transgressions? Paul did say the law was for sinners, and not the righteous. But by what standard are you claiming to be righteous? By God's declaration, or your practice? And if your practice isn't up to scratch, do you not then need the law for that part which is deficient? Of course you might say then that the flesh is dead and therefore you are not under the law... Great... But if your flesh still dominates your life to the extent you are still transgressing the law, then your flesh is still very much alive is it not?

 

[brakelite]

I think that my position is not clear to some, so I will attempt to reiterate it here.

Salvation is by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9.

We do not shift from walking by faith to attempting to earn our salvation by works, if we are going to continue in the true faith of Christianity.

The righteousness of God begins with faith, ends with faith, and is by faith all the way through (Romans 1:17).

Having received Christ by faith (Romans 5:2), we are to continue our walk with Him by faith (Colossians 2:6).

Having begun in the Spirit (by faith) we are not to seek to be made perfect by the flesh (seeking to maintain our salvation by works) (Galatians 3:1-3).

Now in John 15, it should be clear that when we abide in the vine, we will produce good fruit. This fruit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance (Galatians 5:22-23) and manifests itself in good works (Titus 3:14).

But I want to say that we do not abide in the vine as the result of bearing good fruit.

We bear good fruit as the result of abiding in the vine.

According to some scripture above, it should be clear that the method by which we abide in the vine, from beginning to end, is by faith in Jesus Christ.

Through faith, we are connected to and draw up nourishment from the vine; and good fruit is produced as the result.

Now it is fair that when we are judged by the Lord, that we will be judged by our fruit.

Bearing good fruit is the evidence that there is a relationship...that we are connected to the vine.

If anyone does not bear good fruit, they will be cast away and burned in the fire.

However, the underlying reason is not because the person isn't bearing good fruit.

The underlying reason is that there is no relationship...and because of this the person does not bear good fruit.

Jesus said, Ye must be born again.

We are born again by faith; and I would add, we continue to live once we are born again, because of faith.

If we move over from faith to attempting to earn our salvation by what we do, we are no longer abiding...relationship has been compromised.

This is not to say that when we abide in Christ (by faith), we will not do good works or bear good fruit.

Motivation is everything. If we do good works because we feel we are disconnected and are seeking to re-obtain the connection by doing something for God, we have missed it. We need to come back to the Lord by establishing faith.

But if we do good works because we know that we have been redeemed and are simply thankful for the Lord's extravagant and scandalous grace towards us, then we are doing them from the perspective of one who is connected to the vine.

It saddens me that these principles will go right over the head of some because I am speaking in parabolic terms. But the Lord ordained it thus, that the main truths of scripture would be spoken in parables, so that "seeing they might see and not perceive," and "hearing they might hear and not understand."

There are those who simply will not get it.

Oh well, such is the way of life.

Unless I missed it somehow, in all the above we see much about being nice people as a result of abiding... Fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace etc... We see good works... Again for and again, being nice to people... But not a word about obedience. Is obedience a dirty word around here? Why cannot obedience to God's commandments also be Fruit of abiding in the Vine?

 

[brakelite]

The law is our schoolmaster - pedagogue - to lead us to Christ, but we then don't go back under the law... (Galatians).

Why do you equate obedience to the law by the power and grace of God(the only means by which obedience can be accomplished) with being under the law? If one is under the condemnation of the law, it is because he is transgressing it, not obeying it.

 

[brakelite]

Yes. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (Galatians 2:20-21)

That speaks to Paul's testimony, yes. But is it ours?

 

[farouk]

Why do you equate obedience to the law by the power and grace of God(the only means by which obedience can be accomplished) with being under the law? If one is under the condemnation of the law, it is because he is transgressing it, not obeying it.

I was thinking of this passage:

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3.22-26)

 

[brakelite]

The law is our schoolmaster - pedagogue - to lead us to Christ, but we then don't go back under the law... (Galatians).

I agree that the law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (the entire Torah pointed to Messiah) , but does it cease to fulfill that function if we sin... Is our sin not indicative of having left Christ, even momentarily, ... Therefore the law is active again in pointing us to our constant need of our Saviour?