Pre-Trib Rapture Danger To Your Soul

[The Light]

Only a pre-tribber would identify the 'great multitude' as raptured believers!

Actually, the great multitude contains the Church that is raptured in the pre trib rapture and those that are raptured at the 6th seal.

On a side note. Post tribbers do not realize that they are actually Post wrathers. They confuse the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal with the second advent.

The tribulation and the wrath of God are separate events as proven by scripture.

 

[The Light]

You're saying there's a rapture at the sixth seal?

Yes.

Can you quote that gathering harpazo for me in the 6th seal?

Sure.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Where is this other rapture - the pre-trib one - you're talking about? Verse?

Matthew 24 tells us He is coming in an hour that we think not. That would not be possible if He told us when He is coming.

Matthew 24
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

However we see 24 elders with crowns in Revelation 4. You receive crowns when Jesus comes so we can conclude that Jesus has come by the crowns the 24 elders have.

You must have read, "When the Trumpet Sounds!"

Nope. Never heard of it.

 

[The Light]

Luke 21:34-36 LITV
34) But take heed to yourselves that your hearts not be loaded down with headaches, and drinking, and anxieties of life, and that day come suddenly upon you
35) as a snare, for it will come in on all those sitting on the face of all the earth.
36) Then be watchful at every time, begging that you be counted worthy to escape all these things, the things being about to happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.

Matthew 24:9-13 LITV
9) Then they will deliver you up to affliction, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10) And then many will be offended, and they will deliver up one another and will hate one another.
11) And many false prophets will be raised and will cause many to err.
12) And because lawlessness shall have been multiplied, the love of the many will grow cold.
13) But the one who endures to the end, that one will be kept safe.

Matthew 24:29-31 LITV
29) And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.
31) And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to their ends.

These are not rapture passages.

Much love!

WWWWWHWHWHHAAAAAATTTTTT????????

Those are absolutely rapture passages.

 

[Jay Ross]

WWWWWHWHWHHAAAAAATTTTTT????????

Those are absolutely rapture passages.

Show @marks some respect. He is in training to be an escape artist of being refined in Christ during these times of great trouble.

The saving grace for him is that these great times of trouble are well into our distant future.

The sad fact is that by attempting to escape God's grace of being refined, he is attempting to save his life through his choices, believing that the times of trouble, spoken about in the scriptures, will occur in our relative near future, whereas the scriptures point to the fact that these trouble times will not occur during the next 1,000 plus years, from this present time period after the Bottomless pit is unlocked so that the imprisoned kings of the earth, the beast, the false prophet and Satan are able to rise up out of the Bottomless pit to do their worst during the little while period at the end of the Age of the Ages.
Shalom

 

[marks]

WWWWWHWHWHHAAAAAATTTTTT????????

Those are absolutely rapture passages.

No, they concern Israel standing before Jesus when He comes.

Much love!

 

[The Light]

No, they concern Israel standing before Jesus when He comes.

Much love!

These verses are about the Church that can escape ALL THE THINGS. That means the escape the seals which is the tribulation which is why there are 24 elders WITH CROWNS, showing that Jesus has come.

Luke 21:34-36 LITV
34) But take heed to yourselves that your hearts not be loaded down with headaches, and drinking, and anxieties of life, and that day come suddenly upon you
35) as a snare, for it will come in on all those sitting on the face of all the earth.
36) Then be watchful at every time, begging that you be counted worthy to escape all these things, the things being about to happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.

My bad here as this is obviously not a rapture verse and is talking about the Jews in the great tribulation.
Matthew 24:9-13 LITV
9) Then they will deliver you up to affliction, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10) And then many will be offended, and they will deliver up one another and will hate one another.
11) And many false prophets will be raised and will cause many to err.
12) And because lawlessness shall have been multiplied, the love of the many will grow cold.
13) But the one who endures to the end, that one will be kept safe.

These verses are the second rapture, the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the alive Jews that remain are gathered from the earth. Also those killed during the tribulation will be raptured. The happens at the 6th seal and is not the judgement that takes place at the end of the trumpet at the 7th sea..

Matthew 24:29-31 LITV
29) And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.
31) And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to their ends.

 

[The Light]

Here's the sixth seal. Point out the rapture for me...

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Sounds more like a series of cataclysmic events like fires and volcanos, earthquakes, atmospheric pollution, and maybe nuclear war etc. I can understand pre-wrath position in Revelation 11.

In Revelation 6 we have TIMING as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. We have the exact same signs in the sun, moon and stars in Matthew 24. That should tell you that what you see in Matthew 24 that happens at the signs of the sun, moon and stars is ALSO happening in Revelation 6 at the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

That said, here is the rapture that occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Most Christians think that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 happens at the end of the trumpets during the seventh seal and it is the time that Jesus will land on the Mount of Olives and set up His kingdom. As we can see in the Word, rightly divided, they are wrong. We also have some that claim that Jesus coming at the 6th seal is the same coming as when Jesus comes at the 7th seal. Then they proudly go on to spout it's in 7.s................7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 vials. As we can see, this is in error as Jesus comes at the 6th seal.

So in summary, Jesus comes at the 6th seal and remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. This is completely separate from Jesus coming at the end of the trumpets to set up His kingdom. The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is BEFORE wrath and the coming of Jesus at the end of the trumpets is at the end of wrath.

So, I imagine you're pre-wrath maybe?

I am both pretrib and post trib as the fig tree has two harvests. Contrary to what is commonly taught by most (pre tribbers and post tribbers) the tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same events.

When I say I am pretrib, that is for the Church, the 1st harvest. When I say I am post trib (which is also pre wrath as you mentioned that is for the second harvest, the gathering before wrath.

You, I imagine, think that you are post trib but when the facts are laid out you are actually Post Wrath.

The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins as proven by scripture. So all these people claiming to be post trib are really post wrath.

 

[Timtofly]

It is an abomination

Nope. The abomination happens after the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet happens after the first 6 Trumpets. The Second Coming happens before the 7th Seal. The 7th Seal happens before the 1st Trumpet.

If you plan on enduring Satan's 42 months of abomination, go for it. Make sure you chop your head off to avoid the mark. At the end of those 42 months only two types of humans left. Those with the mark, and those having no head on their shoulders. One group destroyed, and the other resurrected after Armageddon, after Satan is bound in the pit.

 

[The Light]

You are telling me that the Second Coming happens before THIS! The 7th Seal.

The second coming happens at the 6th seal. The second advent happens at the end of the trumpets. These are not the same events contrary to what is commonly taught.

 

[The Light]

Your reply is typical of a pre-trib thinker - you have extreme views and let others do your thinking.

There are two raptures as the fig tree has two harvests. If you haven't figured out there is a pre trib rapture you will find out real, real, real soon.

 

[Timtofly]

Here's the sixth seal. Point out the rapture for me...



Sounds more like a series of cataclysmic events like fires and volcanos, earthquakes, atmospheric pollution, and maybe nuclear war etc. I can understand pre-wrath position in Revelation 11.

So, I imagine you're pre-wrath maybe?

This is 2 Peter 3:10-12


"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

The 5th Seal is Paul's 1 Corinthians 15:53-54

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

The 5th and 6th Seal is Paul's 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

That is when Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives per Zechariah 14:1-4

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

All the unsaved know this is the Second Coming. Why do so many church members deny this fact?

The entire church, in the air, puts on "robes of white". Then rest in Paradise until the final harvest of the sheep and wheat is gathered. So the sheep and wheat are not the church. Matthew 25:31 takes place when Jesus is sitting on His throne in Jerusalem, after coming to the Mount of Olives. Matthew 13:36-43 is after Jesus and the angels are already on the earth.

Interesting that the OP denies replacement theology, but replaces those left on earth, with the church, when it is called Jacob's trouble. The church did not replace Israel in the first coming, so definitely will not replace Israel, and go through Israel's trouble on earth after the Second Coming.

The sheep and the wheat return to earth after Satan's 42 months. They don't even go through this Abomination of desolation. They leave and come back at Armageddon. The 144k are not the church. That is replacement theology. So why is the church on the earth when only the 144k are sealed to live through the Trumpets? Why deny replacement theology in one breath and then turn around and declare the church is the 144k that go through the GT, which is Jacob's trouble? Only the Angels, the 144k, and Jesus as King goes through the GT. The sheep don't. They are removed to the sea of glass.

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

"And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal."

How did they get the victory before Armageddon even happened? They were not left on earth.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Life eternal is not suffering on earth in the chaos and desolation of the GT. People are dying. People are being cast into the LOF. People die and leave on God's timetable. People are going from Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical body, and waiting on the sea of glass, until they return to earth at Armageddon.

Taking a stand is today, right now, in this life God placed you. The church has had to take a stand for 1993 years. Stephen took a stand in great tribulation of those days defined by Jesus:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

That is the tribulation the church goes through. Started at the Cross, and ends at the Second Coming, the 5th and 6th Seal. Otherwise known as the fulness of the Gentiles. The church is not on earth during the Trumpets, Thunders, nor Satan's 42 months. The sheep are only on earth, until an angel brings them to stand before Jesus.

"And before him shall be gathered all nations."

This is the birth of Israel in a day. Only a remnant will be saved.

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

These are those who live on the earth with Jesus for a 1,000 years. Isaiah 65.

The majority will be goats tossed into the LOF.

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Then when that judgment is over there will be 7 Thunders. Matthew 13. The tares and wheat separated the same way the goats and sheep were. This GT is not for some AC or even Satan's 42 months. It is the systematic removal of all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The earth is being baptized by cleansing fire. That is how the Day of the Lord comes. Like a snow plow clearing the highway of snow. Everything is removed. Everything has to be removed because the Day of the Lord is holy without sin and death from decay, just as Daniel 9:24 promises.

When the 7th Trumpet stops sounding the Day of the Lord begins. But it is the coming of that day that is the GT. And the church leaves first before any one else. The last to leave are those with the mark, that is if Satan even gets 42 months. The more that leave with the church at the beginning, means the less left for Satan to sift through, the gleanings after the final harvest. The gleanings, those beheaded is why Satan gets 42 months. And here Satan has you all thinking those 42 months are only for Him, and his AC. Then the only ones taking a stand, do so by chopping their head off. Hey, at least you get to live on earth along with the wheat and the sheep. But what do you have to show for it? You missed riding a white horse to Armageddon, but congrats, you were not bird feed there.

 

[Timtofly]

The 7th seal opens in Rev. 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

You are telling me that the Second Coming happens before THIS! The 7th Seal.

Your reply is typical of a pre-trib thinker - you have extreme views and let others do your thinking.
You're pipe dream that - "At the end of those 42 months only two types of humans left. Those with the mark, and those having no head on their shoulders." Is again typical pre-trib. They've got ya!

Yep.

Revelation is not written in reverse order. You can think that if you want to.

 

[Davy]

I've been hearing this real, real, soon stuff since the world's been flat.

Those on the false Pre-trib Rapture theory from men have... to use language like "real soon". It's because they don't heed Christ's command to watch. They don't know what... to watch. Their leaders ensure they don't know.

It's because they don't know anything about the events that Jesus gave His faithful Church to be 'watching' leading up to His future return.

What the pre-tribbers get instead are phrases dreamed up from men like, "be ready", His coming is "imminent, He could come at any moment!", be patient and wait for the "blessed hope", etc., etc., etc.

For the true disciple of Jesus Christ that keeps HIS Word, we well know the pre-trib rapture doctors simply make up phrases designed to scoot around... the actual SIGNS of the end which Lord Jesus gave us to be WATCHING, leading up to His return to gather us.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Can you show me a verse that shows Jesus returning BEFORE tribulation?

Jesus FRAMES it before the trib.
Take it up with him.
It is HIS words.
Btw
You have no postrib rapture verses.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It's an amazing thing. Pre-tribbers can't see the manufacturing process of this pre-trib delusion. It is the most widely held false deceptive doctrine to ever enter Christianity.

I mean it. I will be forever amazed that anyone cannot see the fabricated nonsense of pre-trib. There is no greater perversion of Mathew 24 than the pre-trib interpretation of it. It is an abomination.

....he says, thinking Noah and Lot are post judgement examples.
Then thinking the dead in Christ are resurrected after the living of rev 14.
Your ENTIRE theory rests on one issue.
That there is no coming of Jesus in rev 14, (which is neither the rapture or the second coming on horses)
And ,That Jesus was delusional when he declared the pretrib rapture.
But ignore the command to be ready.
Because EVERY time we see that command, it is for the rapture.
All your deal is preparing for the AC, and trib.
No postribber is watching for Jesus.
In fact, that would be ridiculous.
You are, in fact, watching for the AC.
WHEW
SMH
What a trap.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Take it up with him? Great cop-out.

Jesus said that at the time of the parousia, the gathering happens at the end of Tribulation. I believe him.

Paul said in 1Thes. 4 that the parousia and harpazo happen together. I believe him.

Paul says the harpazo happens at the last Trump. I believe him.

bravo
Ignore the words of Jesus, and go for a postribber talking point.
Great plan!

 

[rebuilder 454]

I don't know why I deal with such stupid people.

Postrib inevitable low road

Go personal, and belittle. Throw in some name calling.
I DO understand you can not go toe to toe with verses.
I totally understand your frustration, since you can not POSSIBLY make rev 14 go away or the pretrib rapture verses.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I've been hearing this real, real, soon stuff since the world's been flat.

The bible ends with the cry of the remnant bride for the groom to come.
You would be wise to drop doctrine and watch for Jesus.

 

[The Light]

I've been hearing this real, real, soon stuff since the world's been flat.

I noticed that you were unable to address any of the points that I posted. You haven't even figured out that Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest. That fact should tell you that you have no clue about end time events as written in the Word of God. You have been taught by those without understanding. FYI, here is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal as Jesus remains in the clouds prior to the wrath of God when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

I wish you well brother as the time of testing draws near.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I noticed that you were unable to address any of the points that I posted. You haven't even figured out that Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest. That fact should tell you that you have no clue about end time events as written in the Word of God. You have been taught by those without understanding. FYI, here is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal as Jesus remains in the clouds prior to the wrath of God when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

I wish you well brother as the time of testing draws near.

REV 14 is the nuclear bomb to the man made postrib rapture silliness.
They have no place to go once rev 14 is invoked.
It is appalling that they need it changed as well as Jesus words in mat 24 and 25.