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Featured Pre-Trib Rapture is Dead!!!

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Rollo Tamasi, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    Imagine that! In speaking of "the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto Him", Paul says plainly "that day (not "2 days separated by 7 years") shall not come except there come a falling away first and the Man of Sin be revealed", yet somehow people get confused that those two events are separated by 7 years, the one arriving at the beginning of the 7 years and the other at the end...o_O
     
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  2. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I get this part, but the rest of it I understand (though I think Revelation 16:15 is a warning to the faithful, not the unfaithful. He was writing to the churches).

    I suppose I'm different because I never got caught up in the whole Hal Lindsey and "Left Behind" craze. I saw it mostly as just a bunch of overly-hyped end-times hysteria, so it never effected me all that much. As a result, I never had an aversion to the concept of the rapture. But that's the danger in teaching that the return of Christ is coming sooner than it is IMO; it's why I warn people not to do it. It effects people, and only when all have stood judgment will everyone know just how much.
     
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  3. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ya...there is no "return" of Christ that you can even Quote though, so imo "many will be deceived" there. Christ is right here! :D
     
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  4. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    LoL. Yes, He is... and thank God for it! :)
     
  5. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    Bible: "One will be taken and the other left.” And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.”

    Devil's blatant lie: He won't be taken to his death.
     
  6. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    Yes, I added "took" and put in brackets so that everyone would know I added took, because took is implied by context.

    They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed [took] them all.

    It's an insulting lie to everyone for prettribers to point to Luke and claim people are being taken in the rapture. Come on, Antipret, tell me where you get the rapture from that verse, or from the context, other than pointing the word "taken" and outright injecting the Devil's rapture lie into the text.
     
  7. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    "Will this finally bring us all together?" Ahahaha....prolly not.
     
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  8. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    How does Matthew 24:29-36 fit into the timeline of said rapture?
    together.

    29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

    33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
     
  9. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I know you did, LoL. But by your own admission you are inserting words into the text that aren't present in the Greek. You do the same thing with "corpse." The Greek simply reads "body," and not "dead body" or "corpse." Granted, those are all inferences from the text, but if you take liberties like that by inserting your assumptions into the text you are no longer translating but paraphrasing based on your interpretation.
    Insulting? Oh come on. :) Don't get so worked up.

    But if you want to discuss it, as per Post #65, in your opinion is Jesus the thief or no?
     
  10. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes peace is a very fragile thing.

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    Pretribber nonsense: Rapture -> Tribulation -> Jesus coming in the clouds -> Angels gather Christ's elect

    You're asking for an explanation from people who would insist 2+2=3, if bad math resulted in people going to Hell.
     
  12. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    I didn't do the same with "corpse" because that word is not from me, but from a good version I used. A direct translation is impossible because no two words between different languages carry the same nuances. The Bible uses the same word for a living body as it does for a corpse. Unless you think "corpse" is misleading, why are you bringing it up?
     
  13. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Lol...that's for sure!
     
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  14. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    With σώμα the translation of "corpse" is always inferred from the context. The word itself simply means "body."
    I do think corpse is misleading. The "body" spoken of is the body of Christ, whom the angels will gather from the four corners of the earth. This body will be very much alive, not dead. Hence I don't think "dead" should be added to the text, or inferred by the translation of "corpse."

    So did you take a look at Post #65? Who do you think the thief is in that passage; Jesus, or someone else?
     
  15. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

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    This scripture quote has been altered to suit a false belief. Shame on you!
    Revelation 6:15 The kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich and the powerful, the slave and the free; ALL the people, hid themselves in caves and under the mountain crags.

    It is your wrong belief of being raptured before this terrible event, that leads you astray. Every person alive on that Day will experience it, no exceptions. Proved by Luke 21:34-36 and 1Peter 4:12
    And do not think that verse 36 gives an 'escape' by removal, because that idea is a direct contradiction of the previous verse and is refuted by the many scriptures that tell us how the Lord will protect His own on that Day. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 23, +
     
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  16. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Since I did not quote Rev 6:15 what is your problem? Nothing was altered and the King James rendering is still the most faithful. But I will quote from the KJV: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains".

    So how does this change the fact that the issue here is THE WRATH OF GOD and who is subject to it? Are you suggesting that Christians must face the wrath of God, when the Bible makes it clear that we are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation?
     
  17. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Tero k means protection by removal from the place of issue. Live with it


    Psalms 23 is off topic.
    .
    Luke 21:34-36 New International Version (NIV)
    34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” rapture it means we won't be on the face of the earth

    .
    Isaiah 43:2 New International Version (NIV)
    2 When you pass through the waters,
    I will be with you;
    and when you pass through the rivers,
    they will not sweep over you.
    When you walk through the fire,
    you will not be burned;
    the flames will not set you ablaze.

    It does not mean in and through. So off topic.
     
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  18. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

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    What the prophets plainly tell us, is that the Lord will protect His own during His Day of wrath. Isaiah 43:2, Isaiah 41:13, Nahum 1:7 Plus Revelation 13:10 & 14:12 undeniably say we must endure until the end.
    So if you like to think you will be whisked outta here at the first hint of bother, you should read and understand ALL the scriptures, not cherry pick the ones that suit your beliefs.
    You erroneous opinion. What will happen is told us in Daniel 3:19-27 Those 3 men went through the fire and an angel protected them. We must have the faith they had. Or get burned up like the godless. Isaiah 66:15-17
    We are not taken to heaven to stand before the Son of Man. He comes down to us!
     
  19. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Hi, HIH.
    I have to ask about this, for two reasons. First...
    While it is true that in Luke 17:37 the words used can be translated as "eagle" and "body", which could also, possibly be interpreted as "body of Christ", when we look at corresponding verses, in Matt 24:28, for example, the more specific word for "carcass" is used: ptóma. It is this reason most translators have decided to use "vulture" as the 'bird of prey', rather than eagle, as eagles are rarely carrion. Why could this matter?
    Well...that would bring us to the second reason, and the what you claim to be an "unnatural" reading of this verse.
    Why would Jesus say "where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather?"
    Well, I would submit that it is not that hard to surmise at all, if we just look at the verses before it:


    Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. -Matthew 24:23–28


    Jesus is saying that in those days, there will be many who will attempt to lead us astray. They will perform miracles! But...if they have to tell you 'Look!' we are not to believe it! If we must be told where Christ is, it is not Christ! Because "just as the lightning" is seen all over the sky...just as you can know of what is upon the ground due to those circling overhead, so will the signs of his true coming be obvious. We will all, instantly know when Christ comes!
     
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  20. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    The entire ‘Left Behind’ series has become an icon within the walls of evangelical Christianity, and I fear that many who do not study their Bibles carefully enough have taken the authors’ word for all that is written, and presume that all is Biblically based and almost prophetic in itself, despite the authors’ own admission that it is a work of fiction. So how Biblical is it? Is there any basis for believing that countless thousands of people from all walks of life and from all nations, are suddenly going to disappear leaving loved ones, workmates, passengers in planes, buses and taxis, and society as a whole, ‘left behind’ ?

    Let us look at those Biblical passages most commonly used in support of the rapture theory, and that form the basis for the ‘left behind’ phenomenom.

    As we study these scriptures we must realise that all of them are in the context of prophecy regarding the second coming of Jesus Christ. It is the second advent that climaxes all the above crisis’ and is the focal point of all prophecy.

    Matthew 24:37-41 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    Now please note carefully what Jesus is saying here. First, the second coming will be affected in precisely the same way as the great flood. The unrighteous will not be aware of the signs of the times, they shall be living at ease, living life as normal with little or no thought of eternity, when they shall be taken all away.

    Let us go to the parallel passage in the gospel of Luke. You will note that Luke adds a little more detail giving a slightly different perspective.

    Luke 17:26-37 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

    The people that Matthew says are taken away, Luke adds that they are destroyed. Thus the ‘taken away’ aspect or context of what Jesus is telling His disciples equates to death or destruction. This is borne out later in Luke’s passage when the disciples ask Him, “where are they taken to?” Jesus answer concerning the gathering of eagles around the carcasse echoes the following:

    Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
     
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