Tom, will you answer the question? Did you have the vision about your death by beheading before or after you went on your journey in 2012? Is there some reason you refuse to answer?
PREPARING FOR THE COMING TRIBULATION
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"But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth."
You may reject my revelation as false, or receive it as true....but I will not argue them, nor define them. They are just what I saw, or what was spoken to me. I avoid disputes; they are not profitable...& are sometimes just based in ignorance. Feel free to reject them; I cannot defend them, & that is your prerogative.
This thread is about going into a soon-coming Great Tribulation; No-one has all revelation; & somethings we will be aware of WHEN they occur, in order to encourage us that Jesus is indeed on His Throne.
And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth."
You may reject my revelation as false, or receive it as true....but I will not argue them, nor define them. They are just what I saw, or what was spoken to me. I avoid disputes; they are not profitable...& are sometimes just based in ignorance. Feel free to reject them; I cannot defend them, & that is your prerogative.
This thread is about going into a soon-coming Great Tribulation; No-one has all revelation; & somethings we will be aware of WHEN they occur, in order to encourage us that Jesus is indeed on His Throne.
Questor
Messianic Gentile
Questor, on 06 Feb 2013 - 19:48, said:
If one is to believe that the First Horseman of the Apocalypse is Yah'shua, He was given His crown on His resurrection from Death and the Grave, and His Ascension to a seat at the Father's right hand...which is on the Throne, and no one sits in YHVH's presence except by His command.
I am willing to consider this temporarily, for the other Horsemen seem to have been running since Yah'shua's death. Yes, there are a growing increase in wars, rumours of wars, plague, earthquakes, famine, pestilence and all the evil that men can do beginning in the early 1900's. But Yah'shua's presence is neither needed, nor promised. The birth pangs beginning are signs and warnings that Yashua will return, in person, in power and glory.
However, the prophecies of Revelation are specific to the time of the tribulation, or why was Yah'shua making sure that all the details of the Tribulation be spelled out for us in Revelation? If everything was to be as it always was, wars, famine, pestilence, earthquakes, there is nothing needed of the Four Horsemen, unless it were the quickening of the birth pangs, as YHVH allows the Evil One to begin his endtime preparations.
Q
Guestman, on 16 Feb 2013 - 20:54, said:
Though Jesus was given all authority "in heaven and on the earth" (Matt 28:18), he was not given "a crown". The apostle Pater said that following his resurrection, that "he is at God's right hand, for he went his way to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."(1 Pet 3:22) Jesus had to sit at Jehovah's "right hand" until the "appointed time" to receive the kingship. Psalms 110 speaks of this, saying: "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."(Ps 110:1) After having placed his "enemies as a stool for (his) feet", Jesus is then told: "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies."(Ps 110:2)
At Daniel 7, Daniel saw "in the visions of the night, and, see there ! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him was given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him."(Dan 7:13, 14) It is to be noted that this happens when a ' small horn ' has come into existence (the Anglo-American dual world power that came into play in 1917) after the demise of the "fourth beast"(Dan 7:7), the Roman Empire that fell to the German warlord Odoacer in 476 C.E.
The expression "son of man", Jesus identified at Matthew 8:20 as himself, who received "rulership and dignity and kingdom". Thus, what Daniel saw in vision is the same as at Revelation 6:2, whereby the rider of the "white horse" is seen with "a bow" and upon receiving "a crown", goes "forth conquering and to complete his conquest". This rider is again seen at Revelation 19 as the "Word of God" or Jesus Christ.(Rev 19:11-13)
Hence, Jesus upon receiving kingly authority of God's kingdom in 1914, went forth then and there to conquer, casting out first Satan and his demon angels from the "heavens", down to the vicinity of the earth.(Rev 12:7-9) This caused "woe for the earth and for the sea", resulting in "pangs of distress".(Matt 24:8; Rev 12:12) His ' completion of his conquest ' will be at the end of his millennial reign, when he has destroyed Satan, his demons and those who have chosen to follow him during this Judgment Day, with Adamic death being "the last enemy".(1 Cor 15:26; Rev 20:7-10)
As a feature of the "sign" (Matt 24:3) that Jesus said would be "the beginning of pangs of distress" (Matt 24:8) of his invisible "presence"(no "sign" would be needed if Jesus "presence" or parousia were visible), of ' nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom ' (Matt 24:7; Mark 13:8), Revelation 6:4 says that there came forth a rider on "a fiery-colored horse" and it "was granted to take peace away from the earth so that should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him."
When, for the 1st time in human history, was ' peace taken away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another ' ? World War I, that began on July 28, 1914, with Austria declaring war on Serbia and eventually escalating globally, whereby some 93 percent of the world's population became involved.
Another rider followed, "a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand".(Rev 6:5) Famine followed global war, but another rider was even more devastating, the one on a "pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Hades (mankind's common grave) was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword (global war) and with food shortage ("black horse") and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth."(Rev 6:8)
By the end of World War I, a deadly plague, the Spanish Influenza broke out and over the course of 1918-1920, epidemiologists now estimate that as many as 500 million were infected and that perhaps upwards of 100 million died, and in which no place on earth was left unscathed, except the island of St. Helena. Thus, since the start of Jesus invisible "presence", the riders of the four horses have been riding swiftly.
The first seal, the rider of the white horse is a symbol of a conquering king as is plainly stated, yet the prophecy being given to John and his coming is rendered when the first seal is opened by Yah'shua. The horseman cannot be Yah'shua, but it can be the Anti-Christ, when he comes, bringing the other horsemen in his wake, and the judgements that follow. The key is when does the rider of the white horse get released. From John's point of view, all that is told to him after the 7 churches are discussed is future to him. It is what will happen at the time of the end.
Guestman, I do not of myself believe that Yah'shua haMashiach received a crown, or went forth conquering and to conquer. At the Parousia, when all Believers, dead and alive will be gathered to Him, it is actually then that Yah'shua comes to defeat all who stand against Him, and against Israel, and returns as King of Kings .
Guestman, on 16 Feb 2013 - 20:54, said:
Though Jesus was given all authority "in heaven and on the earth" (Matt 28:18), he was not given "a crown". The apostle Pater said that following his resurrection, that "he is at God's right hand, for he went his way to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."(1 Pet 3:22) Jesus had to sit at Jehovah's "right hand" until the "appointed time" to receive the kingship. Psalms 110 speaks of this, saying: "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."(Ps 110:1) After having placed his "enemies as a stool for (his) feet", Jesus is then told: "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies."(Ps 110:2)
I don't have a specific preference for when the birth pangs begin, all though looking back I get a sense that the lead in, on the Adversary's part, started off on a strong push in the mid to late 1700's, setting up the endgame we are seeing laid out before us, getting ever closer to the final hours before Yah'shua returns in power, and glory. We are in the beginning of the birth pangs now.
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Guestman, on 16 Feb 2013 - 20:54, said:
At Daniel 7, Daniel saw "in the visions of the night, and, see there ! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him was given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him."(Dan 7:13, 14)
Yes, I see what you are saying. Yah’shua receives all things…power, and glory, and the rulership of the planet, but He does not begin to rule until after destroying the one who comes forth conquering, and to conquer. Instead, Yah’shua remains in heaven, seated in YHVH’s throne. He shows to John what will happen, and he is describing the end of days, the time of the end.
The only way that the seals can be opened prior to the tribulation would be if Yah’shua was showing the Rider of the White Horse to be the Gospel of Truth, and that Gospel dragging behind it the other horsemen, drawing in the wake of the gospel all of the sword that Yah’shua spoke of.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Matt 10:34-36 (KJV)
There has been so much killing in the name of Yah’shua that I can envision all the pain and agony that has occurred since haMashiach’s death, and in the wake of war, famine and pestilence automatically, for those involved in the war action.
But John was given the Revelation at the end of his life, and it was given to him as the future events of the Day of the Lord. The temple had been destroyed, Jerusalem destroyed, hundreds of thousands killed since the death of haMashiach. I simply cannot see anywhere in Revelation or Daniel the extent of war, famine and death following the gospel that is in the prophecies of the End of Days.
Are the seals open? It doesn't appear so if you are defining scripture with scripture, but yes, it sure feels like it.
The Evil One fans the flames everywhere he can. Yes, there has been massive death and suffering since haMashiach died, but that is not even one quarter of the world being destroyed as will happen by the four riders of the apocalypse, much less the third of the earth that is destroyed during the trumpet judgements. Between them we are talking over 2 BILLION people killed by the Four Horsemen, and then possibly another two Billion, presumably due to one third of the earth being unable to be lived in.
In the Tribulation, when the Devil has full sway over events, it will be far worse than all the wars of the world put together. I too have thought we were into the seals being opened, but it doesn’t match scripture, only mankind’s perception. We cannot even envision the horror of the Tribulation…we can only pray to be protected from it. Indeed, however difficult the thought, dying as a witness for not taking the mark might be a kindness of YHVH, not tribulation.
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:8 (KJV)
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Rev 8:7-11 (KJV)
Guestman, on 16 Feb 2013 - 20:54, said:
It is to be noted that this happens when a ' small horn ' has come into existence (the Anglo-American dual world power that came into play in 1917) after the demise of the "fourth beast"(Dan 7:7), the Roman Empire that fell to the German warlord Odoacer in 476 C.E.
The small horn is a reference to the Anti-Christ, no more, no less, and is in reference to the Anti-Christ’s coming into power.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:9-11 (KJV)
And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Dan 8:21-25 (KJV)
Fortunately for us, there is no direct authority for the Adversary to be in power until the Tribulation, and the Anti-Christ is not even indwelt by the Dragon until partly through the Tribulation. None of us can simply state by looking at history that this seal, or that one was already opened. Yes, they FEEL as if they are open, but this is not supported in scripture nor can it be supported, because the prophecies were made in John's future perspective, and cannot be matched distinctly to any historical act. Certainly the symbols in Daniel and Revelation can support what we are feeling to be true, but I no longer see anything that has happened as yet to match up with what is prophesied.
The pains of the spasms that are striking the earth in preparation for the tribulation are so small, compared with what shall be, and yet will grow to be so big in the eyes of those of us that are watching for the coming of the Anti-Christ that standing unafraid as we watch is a matter of knowing that YHVH will protect us from the wrath that will come. Death and suffering are not of wrath, but merely within the course of life experience. We need not be afraid, because the tribulation is not meant for us as a punishment, but as a test, and Yah’shua said we would always be given sufficient strength for each day.
Guestman, on 16 Feb 2013 - 20:54, said:
The expression "son of man", Jesus identified at Matthew 8:20 as himself, who received "rulership and dignity and kingdom". Thus, what Daniel saw in vision is the same as at Revelation 6:2, whereby the rider of the "white horse" is seen with "a bow" and upon receiving "a crown", goes "forth conquering and to complete his conquest". This rider is again seen at Revelation 19 as the "Word of God" or Jesus Christ.(Rev 19:11-13)
Being termed ‘Son of Man” was a polite, non-blasphemous way of describing Himself as the Messiah. Yah’shua did not want to state his true Identity, (I AM) until he was ready for the Passover of His death. He only said it before the High Priest at his Trial, so that they WOULD condemn Him.
Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I AM: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 63
Mark 14:61-63 (KJV)
Guestman, on 16 Feb 2013 - 20:54, said:
Hence, Jesus upon receiving kingly authority of God's kingdom in 1914, went forth then and there to conquer, casting out first Satan and his demon angels from the "heavens", down to the vicinity of the earth.(Rev 12:7-9) This caused "woe for the earth and for the sea", resulting in "pangs of distress".(Matt 24:8; Rev 12:12) His ' completion of his conquest ' will be at the end of his millennial reign, when he has destroyed Satan, his demons and those who have chosen to follow him during this Judgment Day, with Adamic death being "the last enemy".(1 Cor 15:26; Rev 20:7-10)
Please, my brother, stop looking for the prophecies to be fulfilled in the specific doings of mankind. We are broken, and tend towards evil always, because we are human, but what is prophesied is beyond the pettiness of human evil. And I consider Hitler and Stalin, and Mao simply to be demon ridden men, no more. When the Devil is come down to be among us, then will we see things beyond imagining.
Yes, the wars, and plagues, and famines of the last century have been terrible, but they are nothing to what is coming. Please stop trying to prove your perceptions with scripture, or history with scripture…scripture only interprets scripture, and feeds our souls, not our minds. Speculation on what exact war in history is which seal is unprovable...we can only have an opinion based on what feels right to us.
Study the scriptures not to fit history with prophecy, or common day events, such as earthquakes, and storms, but to grow closer to Yah’shua, and to understand all that we face, and that we will face it in the strength of Yah’shua.
Guestman, on 16 Feb 2013 - 20:54, said:
As a feature of the "sign" (Matt 24:3) that Jesus said would be "the beginning of pangs of distress" (Matt 24:8) of his invisible "presence"(no "sign" would be needed if Jesus "presence" or parousia were visible), of ' nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom ' (Matt 24:7; Mark 13:8), Revelation 6:4 says that there came forth a rider on "a fiery-colored horse" and it "was granted to take peace away from the earth so that should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him."
When, for the 1st time in human history, was ' peace taken away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another ' ? World War I, that began on July 28, 1914, with Austria declaring war on Serbia and eventually escalating globally, whereby some 93 percent of the world's population became involved.
Another rider followed, "a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand".(Rev 6:5) Famine followed global war, but another rider was even more devastating, the one on a "pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Hades (mankind's common grave) was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword (global war) and with food shortage ("black horse") and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth."(Rev 6:8)
By the end of World War I, a deadly plague, the Spanish Influenza broke out and over the course of 1918-1920, epidemiologists now estimate that as many as 500 million were infected and that perhaps upwards of 100 million died, and in which no place on earth was left unscathed, except the island of St. Helena. Thus, since the start of Jesus invisible "presence", the riders of the four horses have been riding swiftly.
Signs were given to us so we would be awake and alert, watching for the things to come.
The “presence of Christ” is in Heaven, with YHVH. The Holy Spirit, the Ruach haKodesh is who is present with us now. Yah’shua will not return until the Tribulation is nearly over, and it is the time of the end for the Evil One, and his demons.
Illness, and war and famine are not a sign of Yah’shua’s presence, but a sign of the absence of it.
There will only be peace with Yah’shua running the planet in truth, but His invisible presence is the Holy Spirit within us, Comforter, Teacher, the thread of Life that connects to Yah’shua and YHVH, and to each other.
Yah’shua is in the throne of YHVH, and there He will remain until He returns to be with us forever. Do not lessen the power of YHVH, and the glory of His Messiah by claiming an invisible presence of Yah’shua, as if the planet is under His rule now. If it were, we would have His iron hand to keep peace, and abolish war, with power to heal the sick, and knowledge to run the planet properly, so that no one hungers.
The Holy Spirit is our comfort NOW, and the Riders of the Apocalypse have not yet begun in earnest.
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 Te LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. 6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. 7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
Psalms 110:1-7 (KJV)
Q
If one is to believe that the First Horseman of the Apocalypse is Yah'shua, He was given His crown on His resurrection from Death and the Grave, and His Ascension to a seat at the Father's right hand...which is on the Throne, and no one sits in YHVH's presence except by His command.
I am willing to consider this temporarily, for the other Horsemen seem to have been running since Yah'shua's death. Yes, there are a growing increase in wars, rumours of wars, plague, earthquakes, famine, pestilence and all the evil that men can do beginning in the early 1900's. But Yah'shua's presence is neither needed, nor promised. The birth pangs beginning are signs and warnings that Yashua will return, in person, in power and glory.
However, the prophecies of Revelation are specific to the time of the tribulation, or why was Yah'shua making sure that all the details of the Tribulation be spelled out for us in Revelation? If everything was to be as it always was, wars, famine, pestilence, earthquakes, there is nothing needed of the Four Horsemen, unless it were the quickening of the birth pangs, as YHVH allows the Evil One to begin his endtime preparations.
Q
Guestman, on 16 Feb 2013 - 20:54, said:
Though Jesus was given all authority "in heaven and on the earth" (Matt 28:18), he was not given "a crown". The apostle Pater said that following his resurrection, that "he is at God's right hand, for he went his way to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."(1 Pet 3:22) Jesus had to sit at Jehovah's "right hand" until the "appointed time" to receive the kingship. Psalms 110 speaks of this, saying: "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."(Ps 110:1) After having placed his "enemies as a stool for (his) feet", Jesus is then told: "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies."(Ps 110:2)
At Daniel 7, Daniel saw "in the visions of the night, and, see there ! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him was given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him."(Dan 7:13, 14) It is to be noted that this happens when a ' small horn ' has come into existence (the Anglo-American dual world power that came into play in 1917) after the demise of the "fourth beast"(Dan 7:7), the Roman Empire that fell to the German warlord Odoacer in 476 C.E.
The expression "son of man", Jesus identified at Matthew 8:20 as himself, who received "rulership and dignity and kingdom". Thus, what Daniel saw in vision is the same as at Revelation 6:2, whereby the rider of the "white horse" is seen with "a bow" and upon receiving "a crown", goes "forth conquering and to complete his conquest". This rider is again seen at Revelation 19 as the "Word of God" or Jesus Christ.(Rev 19:11-13)
Hence, Jesus upon receiving kingly authority of God's kingdom in 1914, went forth then and there to conquer, casting out first Satan and his demon angels from the "heavens", down to the vicinity of the earth.(Rev 12:7-9) This caused "woe for the earth and for the sea", resulting in "pangs of distress".(Matt 24:8; Rev 12:12) His ' completion of his conquest ' will be at the end of his millennial reign, when he has destroyed Satan, his demons and those who have chosen to follow him during this Judgment Day, with Adamic death being "the last enemy".(1 Cor 15:26; Rev 20:7-10)
As a feature of the "sign" (Matt 24:3) that Jesus said would be "the beginning of pangs of distress" (Matt 24:8) of his invisible "presence"(no "sign" would be needed if Jesus "presence" or parousia were visible), of ' nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom ' (Matt 24:7; Mark 13:8), Revelation 6:4 says that there came forth a rider on "a fiery-colored horse" and it "was granted to take peace away from the earth so that should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him."
When, for the 1st time in human history, was ' peace taken away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another ' ? World War I, that began on July 28, 1914, with Austria declaring war on Serbia and eventually escalating globally, whereby some 93 percent of the world's population became involved.
Another rider followed, "a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand".(Rev 6:5) Famine followed global war, but another rider was even more devastating, the one on a "pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Hades (mankind's common grave) was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword (global war) and with food shortage ("black horse") and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth."(Rev 6:8)
By the end of World War I, a deadly plague, the Spanish Influenza broke out and over the course of 1918-1920, epidemiologists now estimate that as many as 500 million were infected and that perhaps upwards of 100 million died, and in which no place on earth was left unscathed, except the island of St. Helena. Thus, since the start of Jesus invisible "presence", the riders of the four horses have been riding swiftly.
The first seal, the rider of the white horse is a symbol of a conquering king as is plainly stated, yet the prophecy being given to John and his coming is rendered when the first seal is opened by Yah'shua. The horseman cannot be Yah'shua, but it can be the Anti-Christ, when he comes, bringing the other horsemen in his wake, and the judgements that follow. The key is when does the rider of the white horse get released. From John's point of view, all that is told to him after the 7 churches are discussed is future to him. It is what will happen at the time of the end.
Guestman, I do not of myself believe that Yah'shua haMashiach received a crown, or went forth conquering and to conquer. At the Parousia, when all Believers, dead and alive will be gathered to Him, it is actually then that Yah'shua comes to defeat all who stand against Him, and against Israel, and returns as King of Kings .
Guestman, on 16 Feb 2013 - 20:54, said:
Though Jesus was given all authority "in heaven and on the earth" (Matt 28:18), he was not given "a crown". The apostle Pater said that following his resurrection, that "he is at God's right hand, for he went his way to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."(1 Pet 3:22) Jesus had to sit at Jehovah's "right hand" until the "appointed time" to receive the kingship. Psalms 110 speaks of this, saying: "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."(Ps 110:1) After having placed his "enemies as a stool for (his) feet", Jesus is then told: "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies."(Ps 110:2)
I don't have a specific preference for when the birth pangs begin, all though looking back I get a sense that the lead in, on the Adversary's part, started off on a strong push in the mid to late 1700's, setting up the endgame we are seeing laid out before us, getting ever closer to the final hours before Yah'shua returns in power, and glory. We are in the beginning of the birth pangs now.
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Guestman, on 16 Feb 2013 - 20:54, said:
At Daniel 7, Daniel saw "in the visions of the night, and, see there ! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him was given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him."(Dan 7:13, 14)
Yes, I see what you are saying. Yah’shua receives all things…power, and glory, and the rulership of the planet, but He does not begin to rule until after destroying the one who comes forth conquering, and to conquer. Instead, Yah’shua remains in heaven, seated in YHVH’s throne. He shows to John what will happen, and he is describing the end of days, the time of the end.
The only way that the seals can be opened prior to the tribulation would be if Yah’shua was showing the Rider of the White Horse to be the Gospel of Truth, and that Gospel dragging behind it the other horsemen, drawing in the wake of the gospel all of the sword that Yah’shua spoke of.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Matt 10:34-36 (KJV)
There has been so much killing in the name of Yah’shua that I can envision all the pain and agony that has occurred since haMashiach’s death, and in the wake of war, famine and pestilence automatically, for those involved in the war action.
But John was given the Revelation at the end of his life, and it was given to him as the future events of the Day of the Lord. The temple had been destroyed, Jerusalem destroyed, hundreds of thousands killed since the death of haMashiach. I simply cannot see anywhere in Revelation or Daniel the extent of war, famine and death following the gospel that is in the prophecies of the End of Days.
Are the seals open? It doesn't appear so if you are defining scripture with scripture, but yes, it sure feels like it.
The Evil One fans the flames everywhere he can. Yes, there has been massive death and suffering since haMashiach died, but that is not even one quarter of the world being destroyed as will happen by the four riders of the apocalypse, much less the third of the earth that is destroyed during the trumpet judgements. Between them we are talking over 2 BILLION people killed by the Four Horsemen, and then possibly another two Billion, presumably due to one third of the earth being unable to be lived in.
In the Tribulation, when the Devil has full sway over events, it will be far worse than all the wars of the world put together. I too have thought we were into the seals being opened, but it doesn’t match scripture, only mankind’s perception. We cannot even envision the horror of the Tribulation…we can only pray to be protected from it. Indeed, however difficult the thought, dying as a witness for not taking the mark might be a kindness of YHVH, not tribulation.
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:8 (KJV)
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Rev 8:7-11 (KJV)
Guestman, on 16 Feb 2013 - 20:54, said:
It is to be noted that this happens when a ' small horn ' has come into existence (the Anglo-American dual world power that came into play in 1917) after the demise of the "fourth beast"(Dan 7:7), the Roman Empire that fell to the German warlord Odoacer in 476 C.E.
The small horn is a reference to the Anti-Christ, no more, no less, and is in reference to the Anti-Christ’s coming into power.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:9-11 (KJV)
And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Dan 8:21-25 (KJV)
Fortunately for us, there is no direct authority for the Adversary to be in power until the Tribulation, and the Anti-Christ is not even indwelt by the Dragon until partly through the Tribulation. None of us can simply state by looking at history that this seal, or that one was already opened. Yes, they FEEL as if they are open, but this is not supported in scripture nor can it be supported, because the prophecies were made in John's future perspective, and cannot be matched distinctly to any historical act. Certainly the symbols in Daniel and Revelation can support what we are feeling to be true, but I no longer see anything that has happened as yet to match up with what is prophesied.
The pains of the spasms that are striking the earth in preparation for the tribulation are so small, compared with what shall be, and yet will grow to be so big in the eyes of those of us that are watching for the coming of the Anti-Christ that standing unafraid as we watch is a matter of knowing that YHVH will protect us from the wrath that will come. Death and suffering are not of wrath, but merely within the course of life experience. We need not be afraid, because the tribulation is not meant for us as a punishment, but as a test, and Yah’shua said we would always be given sufficient strength for each day.
Guestman, on 16 Feb 2013 - 20:54, said:
The expression "son of man", Jesus identified at Matthew 8:20 as himself, who received "rulership and dignity and kingdom". Thus, what Daniel saw in vision is the same as at Revelation 6:2, whereby the rider of the "white horse" is seen with "a bow" and upon receiving "a crown", goes "forth conquering and to complete his conquest". This rider is again seen at Revelation 19 as the "Word of God" or Jesus Christ.(Rev 19:11-13)
Being termed ‘Son of Man” was a polite, non-blasphemous way of describing Himself as the Messiah. Yah’shua did not want to state his true Identity, (I AM) until he was ready for the Passover of His death. He only said it before the High Priest at his Trial, so that they WOULD condemn Him.
Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I AM: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 63
Mark 14:61-63 (KJV)
Guestman, on 16 Feb 2013 - 20:54, said:
Hence, Jesus upon receiving kingly authority of God's kingdom in 1914, went forth then and there to conquer, casting out first Satan and his demon angels from the "heavens", down to the vicinity of the earth.(Rev 12:7-9) This caused "woe for the earth and for the sea", resulting in "pangs of distress".(Matt 24:8; Rev 12:12) His ' completion of his conquest ' will be at the end of his millennial reign, when he has destroyed Satan, his demons and those who have chosen to follow him during this Judgment Day, with Adamic death being "the last enemy".(1 Cor 15:26; Rev 20:7-10)
Please, my brother, stop looking for the prophecies to be fulfilled in the specific doings of mankind. We are broken, and tend towards evil always, because we are human, but what is prophesied is beyond the pettiness of human evil. And I consider Hitler and Stalin, and Mao simply to be demon ridden men, no more. When the Devil is come down to be among us, then will we see things beyond imagining.
Yes, the wars, and plagues, and famines of the last century have been terrible, but they are nothing to what is coming. Please stop trying to prove your perceptions with scripture, or history with scripture…scripture only interprets scripture, and feeds our souls, not our minds. Speculation on what exact war in history is which seal is unprovable...we can only have an opinion based on what feels right to us.
Study the scriptures not to fit history with prophecy, or common day events, such as earthquakes, and storms, but to grow closer to Yah’shua, and to understand all that we face, and that we will face it in the strength of Yah’shua.
Guestman, on 16 Feb 2013 - 20:54, said:
As a feature of the "sign" (Matt 24:3) that Jesus said would be "the beginning of pangs of distress" (Matt 24:8) of his invisible "presence"(no "sign" would be needed if Jesus "presence" or parousia were visible), of ' nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom ' (Matt 24:7; Mark 13:8), Revelation 6:4 says that there came forth a rider on "a fiery-colored horse" and it "was granted to take peace away from the earth so that should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him."
When, for the 1st time in human history, was ' peace taken away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another ' ? World War I, that began on July 28, 1914, with Austria declaring war on Serbia and eventually escalating globally, whereby some 93 percent of the world's population became involved.
Another rider followed, "a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand".(Rev 6:5) Famine followed global war, but another rider was even more devastating, the one on a "pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Hades (mankind's common grave) was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword (global war) and with food shortage ("black horse") and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth."(Rev 6:8)
By the end of World War I, a deadly plague, the Spanish Influenza broke out and over the course of 1918-1920, epidemiologists now estimate that as many as 500 million were infected and that perhaps upwards of 100 million died, and in which no place on earth was left unscathed, except the island of St. Helena. Thus, since the start of Jesus invisible "presence", the riders of the four horses have been riding swiftly.
Signs were given to us so we would be awake and alert, watching for the things to come.
The “presence of Christ” is in Heaven, with YHVH. The Holy Spirit, the Ruach haKodesh is who is present with us now. Yah’shua will not return until the Tribulation is nearly over, and it is the time of the end for the Evil One, and his demons.
Illness, and war and famine are not a sign of Yah’shua’s presence, but a sign of the absence of it.
There will only be peace with Yah’shua running the planet in truth, but His invisible presence is the Holy Spirit within us, Comforter, Teacher, the thread of Life that connects to Yah’shua and YHVH, and to each other.
Yah’shua is in the throne of YHVH, and there He will remain until He returns to be with us forever. Do not lessen the power of YHVH, and the glory of His Messiah by claiming an invisible presence of Yah’shua, as if the planet is under His rule now. If it were, we would have His iron hand to keep peace, and abolish war, with power to heal the sick, and knowledge to run the planet properly, so that no one hungers.
The Holy Spirit is our comfort NOW, and the Riders of the Apocalypse have not yet begun in earnest.
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 Te LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. 6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. 7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
Psalms 110:1-7 (KJV)
Q
. How can I follow that?...& thank you so much for all of the detailed scripture teaching...that I agree with mostly...with the Caveat that some of the things coming, & prophesied are a Bell-Weathers,,,,,You will recognize them AFTER they occur, as prophesied, in order to encourage you that God is indeed in control, He desperately LOVES us...& will provide.
Knowledge puffs up, Love edifies...even Prophetic truth can enlarge our Pride, as we glory in what we know.
You may receive this or reject this...it is none of my business...but very recently I was taken by the Lord to Eritrea, N. Africa, to be confronted & confront the Anti-Christ Himself....Osama Bin Laden, & his false prophet, who could manifest pillars of fire he called down...I witnessed them on two different nights. I had a Fatwa on my head from the Taliban for $70,000...& teams of Taliban assassins pursuing me...I was protected by the US embassy in Eritrea..[ sent to by the Lord as His ambassador..], & in Cairo too, I think the actual ambassador there was the man who sent help...as a crowd of 100 waited to disembowel me, & Egyptian Air stole my tickets & passport...an IMPOSSIBLE situation...but I did not die.....& then to Germany, with horrors there, & then to Israel...but they could not touch me. I was imprisoned in Israel, but set free....& I do not today understand How?
I met Osama Bin Laden eye to eye..the dead man with a wound to the head,,,that ALL of the Earth wondered over.....Who could this be?...Other than the most famous ZERO-DARK-Thirty BEAST?...& his accompanying witch....with more evil power than I ever knew a man could manifest...[ I have been in the manifest presence of Satan 5 times, in Allah's 3, & Jezebel/Astarte face to face. This man could willfully indulge within my mind as he willed, & mocked with impudence..[ an Arabic man..]...& I saw him indwelled with the cloak of a DRAGON.
He has not yet come into the fullness of his power...which I believe will occur in the midst of an AIR WAR...which America will lose....& then an INVASION of a 20 million man army....& the glorifying of the Holy Bride, And a remnant waiting right here in America that will see His return. When that Air war happens, the both the Church & the Anti-Christ will be anointed for a 42 month period to War. Jesus is Lord & has overcome, & it is HE, & HE alone who holds the KEYS to death & Hell...The Anti-Christ is just a sock-puppet that God is using to separate men's hearts & identify who loves who...forever
Knowledge puffs up, Love edifies...even Prophetic truth can enlarge our Pride, as we glory in what we know.
You may receive this or reject this...it is none of my business...but very recently I was taken by the Lord to Eritrea, N. Africa, to be confronted & confront the Anti-Christ Himself....Osama Bin Laden, & his false prophet, who could manifest pillars of fire he called down...I witnessed them on two different nights. I had a Fatwa on my head from the Taliban for $70,000...& teams of Taliban assassins pursuing me...I was protected by the US embassy in Eritrea..[ sent to by the Lord as His ambassador..], & in Cairo too, I think the actual ambassador there was the man who sent help...as a crowd of 100 waited to disembowel me, & Egyptian Air stole my tickets & passport...an IMPOSSIBLE situation...but I did not die.....& then to Germany, with horrors there, & then to Israel...but they could not touch me. I was imprisoned in Israel, but set free....& I do not today understand How?
I met Osama Bin Laden eye to eye..the dead man with a wound to the head,,,that ALL of the Earth wondered over.....Who could this be?...Other than the most famous ZERO-DARK-Thirty BEAST?...& his accompanying witch....with more evil power than I ever knew a man could manifest...[ I have been in the manifest presence of Satan 5 times, in Allah's 3, & Jezebel/Astarte face to face. This man could willfully indulge within my mind as he willed, & mocked with impudence..[ an Arabic man..]...& I saw him indwelled with the cloak of a DRAGON.
He has not yet come into the fullness of his power...which I believe will occur in the midst of an AIR WAR...which America will lose....& then an INVASION of a 20 million man army....& the glorifying of the Holy Bride, And a remnant waiting right here in America that will see His return. When that Air war happens, the both the Church & the Anti-Christ will be anointed for a 42 month period to War. Jesus is Lord & has overcome, & it is HE, & HE alone who holds the KEYS to death & Hell...The Anti-Christ is just a sock-puppet that God is using to separate men's hearts & identify who loves who...forever
Then you brother with the rest of the brethren who believe such things are in for a rude shock, should you/they be alive at his return at the end of the tribulation. SHALOM :-)Alanforchrist said:
BE PREPARED TO PASS THROUGH MANY TRIBULATIONS BEFORE THE GLOBAL ONE, JUST PRIOR TO THE LORD'S RETURN.
Then you brother with the rest of the brethren who believe such things are in for a rude shock, should you/they be alive at his return at the end of the tribulation. SHALOM :-)
BE PREPARED TO PASS THROUGH MANY TRIBULATIONS BEFORE THE GLOBAL ONE, JUST PRIOR TO THE LORD'S RETURN.
JB_Reformed Baptist
Amen JB. God's grace is sufficient...& we are going to need lakes of it to go on, & believe, & endure....but...we are going to get it. Why? The word declares it...& there will be a gathering of the saints...those that He returns & are changed in a Twinkling of an Eye into New Resurrection bodies..& I believe right here in America.
Now...we can present ourselves before the Lord that He may cleanse us of all impurities & spots...& beg Him to possess us; own us....& with NOTHING on the alter that we raise above Him....Our Children or Grandchildren, our possessions, our lives.
Multitude from the Great Tribulation.............................
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
................. All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir,you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
Maybe some of us will suffer....but not for long. He will redeem. We overcome by Faith....a living faith that He endorses & manifests Himself there-in.
BE PREPARED TO PASS THROUGH MANY TRIBULATIONS BEFORE THE GLOBAL ONE, JUST PRIOR TO THE LORD'S RETURN.
JB_Reformed Baptist
Amen JB. God's grace is sufficient...& we are going to need lakes of it to go on, & believe, & endure....but...we are going to get it. Why? The word declares it...& there will be a gathering of the saints...those that He returns & are changed in a Twinkling of an Eye into New Resurrection bodies..& I believe right here in America.
Now...we can present ourselves before the Lord that He may cleanse us of all impurities & spots...& beg Him to possess us; own us....& with NOTHING on the alter that we raise above Him....Our Children or Grandchildren, our possessions, our lives.
Multitude from the Great Tribulation.............................
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
................. All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir,you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
Maybe some of us will suffer....but not for long. He will redeem. We overcome by Faith....a living faith that He endorses & manifests Himself there-in.
Retrobyter
Active Member
Shalom, Alanforchrist.
Luke 21:20-36
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee (Greek: feugetoosan, a form of NT:5343 feugoo) to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out (Greek: ekchooreitoosan); and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape (Greek: ekfugein a form of NT:1628 ekfeugoo) all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
KJV
The word ekfugein, a form of the word "ekfeugoo," means "to flee out," just as "fugetoosan" is a form of the word "feugoo" meaning "to flee." It does NOT mean "to be taken out of the way!" Somebody's trying to pull the wool over your eyes! It means "to flee," "to run away," and "out" of the country, just as verse 21 was implying! When someone is "taken," it implies that he or she has no control over the event; when someone "flees" or "runs away," he or she DOES have control and is making the effort to escape!
Now, let's revisit John 17:15:
John 17:1-26
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep (Greek: teereeson, a form of teereoo, meaning "to guard by keeping an eye on") through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept (Greek: eteeroun, a past-tense form of teereoo) them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept (Greek: efulaxa, a past-tense form of fulassoo, meaning "have watched" or "have been on guard," implying "have protected"), and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV
There is a natural flow throughout this chapter. Thus, verse 15 is TOTALLY in the context of this chapter! It also fits well with the verses immediately before and after this verse. Verse 20 confirms that He was NOT just talking about the disciples of His time on earth during His first advent, but also about those who would believe on Yeshua` through their witness! Don't you think that includes us today? It DOES, y'know! So, Yeshua` was NOT asking His Father to take us out of this world but to preserve us THROUGH our time in the world! I'm not taking anything out of context, and I challenge you to show me where I've done so!
"Naughty." Hmmph!
LOL! YOU would lecture ME on being "NAUGHTY?!" How DARE you! Let's look more CAREFULLY at Luke 21:36, shall we?Alanforchrist said:
Luke 21:20-36
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee (Greek: feugetoosan, a form of NT:5343 feugoo) to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out (Greek: ekchooreitoosan); and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape (Greek: ekfugein a form of NT:1628 ekfeugoo) all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
KJV
The word ekfugein, a form of the word "ekfeugoo," means "to flee out," just as "fugetoosan" is a form of the word "feugoo" meaning "to flee." It does NOT mean "to be taken out of the way!" Somebody's trying to pull the wool over your eyes! It means "to flee," "to run away," and "out" of the country, just as verse 21 was implying! When someone is "taken," it implies that he or she has no control over the event; when someone "flees" or "runs away," he or she DOES have control and is making the effort to escape!
Now, let's revisit John 17:15:
John 17:1-26
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep (Greek: teereeson, a form of teereoo, meaning "to guard by keeping an eye on") through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept (Greek: eteeroun, a past-tense form of teereoo) them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept (Greek: efulaxa, a past-tense form of fulassoo, meaning "have watched" or "have been on guard," implying "have protected"), and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV
There is a natural flow throughout this chapter. Thus, verse 15 is TOTALLY in the context of this chapter! It also fits well with the verses immediately before and after this verse. Verse 20 confirms that He was NOT just talking about the disciples of His time on earth during His first advent, but also about those who would believe on Yeshua` through their witness! Don't you think that includes us today? It DOES, y'know! So, Yeshua` was NOT asking His Father to take us out of this world but to preserve us THROUGH our time in the world! I'm not taking anything out of context, and I challenge you to show me where I've done so!
"Naughty." Hmmph!
Scripture must not be taken to private interpretations, as you do, & the pride that assumes that proper Greek divisions = the result of proper truths. There has never been derived any more division & opposition to the Truth than this foolish attitude, as is exhibited in the hateful derisions you display to those who may disagree with you. Is this the Lord? Sorry. Repent..if you can. This is "naughty"...I'm afraid.
We will enter...& soon...into a Tribulation we cannot now conceive. Prepare your hearts to obey & love Jesus above any idol or love that exists in your heart; no matter what the cost.
We will enter...& soon...into a Tribulation we cannot now conceive. Prepare your hearts to obey & love Jesus above any idol or love that exists in your heart; no matter what the cost.
Retrobyter
Active Member
Shalom, Brothertom.
2 Peter 1:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJV
Kefa (Peter) was talking about the fact that prophecy of the Scriptures didn't come from the authors' own minds, by their own choice, but rather that they were men set apart or singled out by God who spoke AUDIBLY and INCONTROVERTIBLY as they were compelled by the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym, the Holy Spirit of God. THAT is what Peter said he meant by a "private interpretation"; i.e. that the "prophet" would come up with his own ideas on which to write instead of God's compelling and inspiration. It CERTAINLY doesn't mean that "the majority rules," because I can give you instance after instance where the majority is WRONG! (Just look at politicians, not to mention the false or lying prophets with whom the true prophet Yirmeyahu or Jeremiah had to contend before the Babylonian captivity began!)
I could show you in the Greek what the words actually mean, but I can see that such an approach would fall on deaf ears.
Personal attacks seem to be "en vogue": "Repent...if you can." What's up with that?! Do you now think that I'm not a believer, that I'm not your brother? Would you so accuse me and besmirch my name on this forum? I disagree with you and call your bluff, and so now you attack the person? That's not only reprehensible but illogical, using the "ad hominem" approach to attempt winning an argument! God is NOT the author of confusion, brother, and what is evil and reprehensible to God is "he that soweth discord among the brethren" (Prov. 6:16-19). Are you setting yourself up as a judge over me, making me out to be a "naughty" person who cannot repent? If you and your colleagues are truly prophets of God, then what NEAR prophecies have you spoken by which your status as a prophet of God can be verified?
Look, I don't believe you nor do I trust any who have visions "unbidden." THOSE are the ones who are people having "private interpretations," according to Peter.
You obviously do not know what constitutes a "private interpretation." The phrase does NOT refer to a single person's interpretation of the Scriptures, whether from the Greek or the Hebrew. The phrase is explained in verse 21:
2 Peter 1:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJV
Kefa (Peter) was talking about the fact that prophecy of the Scriptures didn't come from the authors' own minds, by their own choice, but rather that they were men set apart or singled out by God who spoke AUDIBLY and INCONTROVERTIBLY as they were compelled by the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym, the Holy Spirit of God. THAT is what Peter said he meant by a "private interpretation"; i.e. that the "prophet" would come up with his own ideas on which to write instead of God's compelling and inspiration. It CERTAINLY doesn't mean that "the majority rules," because I can give you instance after instance where the majority is WRONG! (Just look at politicians, not to mention the false or lying prophets with whom the true prophet Yirmeyahu or Jeremiah had to contend before the Babylonian captivity began!)
I could show you in the Greek what the words actually mean, but I can see that such an approach would fall on deaf ears.
Personal attacks seem to be "en vogue": "Repent...if you can." What's up with that?! Do you now think that I'm not a believer, that I'm not your brother? Would you so accuse me and besmirch my name on this forum? I disagree with you and call your bluff, and so now you attack the person? That's not only reprehensible but illogical, using the "ad hominem" approach to attempt winning an argument! God is NOT the author of confusion, brother, and what is evil and reprehensible to God is "he that soweth discord among the brethren" (Prov. 6:16-19). Are you setting yourself up as a judge over me, making me out to be a "naughty" person who cannot repent? If you and your colleagues are truly prophets of God, then what NEAR prophecies have you spoken by which your status as a prophet of God can be verified?
Look, I don't believe you nor do I trust any who have visions "unbidden." THOSE are the ones who are people having "private interpretations," according to Peter.
Retrobyter said:
SHALOM,Retrobyter said:
I Agree, anything that cannot be tested against the word of God is unreliable. :)
This is coming much sooner than we may think. Know God....overcome the World in your life, & your selfish way. There will be wise virgins travelling into the dark night, with FAITH OIL for their lamps......& many who thought the good life would just never end, & get lost in the dark.Brothertom said:
“An astonishing and horrible thing
Has been committed in the land:
The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule by their own power;
And My people love to have it so.
But what will you do in the end?"
And Moses went through a great tribulation, Him and His family, in an Ark built by Him with Gods leading, and so we will as He did be in an ark, but ours is Jesus. As teh OP says, no phyiscal preperation will help anyone, only faith in God.
In all His Love
Anything that is not revealed by the Holy Spirit is unreliablle. How many false religions have being built upon teh bible??
In all His Love
The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years.
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.
And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
So HOW? & when did this select company get beheaded, & is it not the Anti-Christ himself who gives such a mark?...It is most certainly DURING THE TRIBULATION period.....&....
....
..... "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."
Pre-Tribulation "rapture" is a fantasy, hammered into scripture through conjecture & twisting the Word by those who love this world & use it.
JESUS DESCRIBES THE RAPTURE:
"Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.... the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
THEN.......the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
At the END of those days of Tribulation.
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.
And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
So HOW? & when did this select company get beheaded, & is it not the Anti-Christ himself who gives such a mark?...It is most certainly DURING THE TRIBULATION period.....&....
....
..... "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."
Pre-Tribulation "rapture" is a fantasy, hammered into scripture through conjecture & twisting the Word by those who love this world & use it.
JESUS DESCRIBES THE RAPTURE:
"Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.... the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
THEN.......the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
At the END of those days of Tribulation.
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