Preterism misrepresents Scripture

[Truth7t7]

According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian,

The Truth

Josephus was a traitor to his Jewish command in Israel's military, as he defected to the Roman enemy in the time of 66-70AD, and became a Roman citizen

Josephus was an adulterer who left his wife and married others, given houses, women, and living in the Luxury of Rome in service to the Emperors Vespasian and Titus as their Propaganda historian

 

[covenantee]

The Truth

Josephus was a traitor to his Jewish command in Israel's military, as he defected to the Roman enemy in the time of 66-70AD, and became a Roman citizen

Josephus was an adulterer who left his wife and married others, given houses, women, and living in the Luxury of Rome in service to the Emperors Vespasian and Titus as their Propaganda historian

Who is a recognized Jewish/Roman historian?

1. You
2. Josephus

Do you need a hint?

 

[WPM]

You haven't said what you disagree with me about. You assume but do not say???

You are arguing these Scriptures re the coming of Christ all have a double meaning and double application.

 

[rwb]

You are arguing these Scriptures re the coming of Christ all have a double meaning and double application.

Paul, I allow the context written to interpret the time of fulfillment. For instance, when John writes "the time is at hand", according to the context I understand the time at hand is NOT the second physical coming of Christ that is in the far distant future because John is writing of things that happen and are applicable to the seven churches to which he is instructed to write. Therefore, the time at hand is the time for these churches to remain faithful and to faithfully build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as they proclaim the Gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit unto all the world.

Revelation 1:3 (KJV) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The time at hand is not His coming with the clouds John writes in vs 7, because we know from other passages from Scripture that Christ will not come with the clouds before the Gospel of the Kingdom has been preached unto all the kingdoms of the world. So, the appearing of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven shall be "immediately after the tribulation of those days." What days? That which shall come to pass during this "time at hand" as the church faithfully fulfills Her task of building the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven through the power of the Gospel and Spirit.

Revelation 1:7 (KJV) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[WPM]

Paul, I allow the context written to interpret the time of fulfillment. For instance, when John writes "the time is at hand", according to the context I understand the time at hand is NOT the second physical coming of Christ that is in the far distant future because John is writing of things that happen and are applicable to the seven churches to which he is instructed to write. Therefore, the time at hand is the time for these churches to remain faithful and to faithfully build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as they proclaim the Gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit unto all the world.

Revelation 1:3 (KJV) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The time at hand is not His coming with the clouds John writes in vs 7, because we know from other passages from Scripture that Christ will not come with the clouds before the Gospel of the Kingdom has been preached unto all the kingdoms of the world. So, the appearing of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven shall be "immediately after the tribulation of those days." What days? That which shall come to pass during this "time at hand" as the church faithfully fulfills Her task of building the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven through the power of the Gospel and Spirit.

Revelation 1:7 (KJV) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The phrase “at hand” or “near” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time-specific. It can mean immediate or distant future, like our English word. In fact, it carries the exact same sense as our English word. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal standpoint, not man’s natural position. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

 

[rwb]

The phrase “at hand” or “near” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time-specific. It can mean immediate or distant future, like our English word. In fact, it carries the exact same sense as our English word. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal standpoint, not man’s natural position. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1451. ἐγγύς engys (engýs)
Search for G1451 in KJVSL; in KJV.

ἐγγύς engýs, eng-goos'

from a primary verb ἄγχω ánchō (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of G43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time):—from , at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

adverb

Strong's Greek Dictionary
43. ἀγκάλη ankale (ankálē)
Search for G43 in KJVSL; in KJV.

ἀγκάλη ankálē, ang-kal'-ay

from ἄγκος ánkos (a bend, "ache"); an arm (as curved):—arm.

feminine noun

In the KJB there are 30 verses translated from the Greek word 1451. ἐγγύς

None of these 30 verses have translated "approaches". Every verse is translated "nigh", "nigh at hand", "from" (- 1 time), "at hand", "ready." Below are the verses. Can you show which, if any, of these 30 verses are indicating whatever is written shall be in the far distant future as might be if it is something that approaches?

Mt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mt 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mr 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mr 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Lu 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
Lu 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Lu 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Joh 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 3:23 And John also was baptizing in AEnon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
Joh 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
Joh 6:19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
Joh 6:23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)
Joh 7:2 Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.
Joh 11:18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
Joh 11:54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.
Joh 11:55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.
Joh 19:20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
Joh 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
Ac 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Ac 9:38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.
Ac 27:8 And, hardly passing it, came unto a place which is called The fair havens; nigh whereunto was the city of Lasea.
Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Re 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Re 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

 

[WPM]

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1451. ἐγγύς engys (engýs)
Search for G1451 in KJVSL; in KJV.

ἐγγύς engýs, eng-goos'

from a primary verb ἄγχω ánchō (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of G43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time):—from , at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

adverb

Strong's Greek Dictionary
43. ἀγκάλη ankale (ankálē)
Search for G43 in KJVSL; in KJV.

ἀγκάλη ankálē, ang-kal'-ay

from ἄγκος ánkos (a bend, "ache"); an arm (as curved):—arm.

feminine noun

In the KJB there are 30 verses translated from the Greek word 1451. ἐγγύς

None of these 30 verses have translated "approaches". Every verse is translated "nigh", "nigh at hand", "from" (- 1 time), "at hand", "ready." Below are the verses. Can you show which, if any, of these 30 verses are indicating whatever is written shall be in the far distant future as might be if it is something the approaches?

Mt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mt 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mr 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mr 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Lu 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
Lu 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Lu 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Joh 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 3:23 And John also was baptizing in AEnon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
Joh 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
Joh 6:19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
Joh 6:23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)
Joh 7:2 Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.
Joh 11:18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
Joh 11:54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.
Joh 11:55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.
Joh 19:20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
Joh 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
Ac 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Ac 9:38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.
Ac 27:8 And, hardly passing it, came unto a place which is called The fair havens; nigh whereunto was the city of Lasea.
Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Re 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Re 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Peter warns the “last days” mockers that such a day will (1) catch them unexpected, and, (2) involve the immediate, complete and final judgment. He cites the total destruction of the unrighteous in Noah’s day as a picture and evidence of what will occur. 2 Peter 3:5-6 confirms: “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.” As in Noah’s day, the wicked scoffers will be shocked when the day of the Lord overtakes them as a “thief in the night.” That seems to be the import of Peter’s argument. The fiery indignation described in this reading destroys the unrighteous and their distain at Christ’s appearing. In fact, in order for the folly of the wicked (in regard to their delusion on Christ’s coming) to be exposed and eliminated the Lord must return in fiery judgment and expose their ignorance.

You can imagine these last days cynics mocking, as the end of time approaches: “2000 years ago He said His return was ‘at hand’ or ‘near’.” “He said He was coming ‘quickly’ or ‘shortly’.” “He promised His return was imminent. But alas nothing!” “Where is He?”

Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory; He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalms 93:2).

 

[WPM]

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1451. ἐγγύς engys (engýs)
Search for G1451 in KJVSL; in KJV.

ἐγγύς engýs, eng-goos'

from a primary verb ἄγχω ánchō (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of G43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time):—from , at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

adverb

Strong's Greek Dictionary
43. ἀγκάλη ankale (ankálē)
Search for G43 in KJVSL; in KJV.

ἀγκάλη ankálē, ang-kal'-ay

from ἄγκος ánkos (a bend, "ache"); an arm (as curved):—arm.

feminine noun

In the KJB there are 30 verses translated from the Greek word 1451. ἐγγύς

None of these 30 verses have translated "approaches". Every verse is translated "nigh", "nigh at hand", "from" (- 1 time), "at hand", "ready." Below are the verses. Can you show which, if any, of these 30 verses are indicating whatever is written shall be in the far distant future as might be if it is something the approaches?

Mt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mt 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mr 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mr 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Lu 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
Lu 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Lu 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Joh 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 3:23 And John also was baptizing in AEnon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
Joh 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
Joh 6:19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
Joh 6:23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)
Joh 7:2 Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.
Joh 11:18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
Joh 11:54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.
Joh 11:55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.
Joh 19:20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
Joh 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
Ac 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Ac 9:38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.
Ac 27:8 And, hardly passing it, came unto a place which is called The fair havens; nigh whereunto was the city of Lasea.
Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Re 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Re 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Strong’s Definitions:

• To bring near, to join one thing to another.
• To draw or come near to, to approach.

 

[rwb]

Peter warns the “last days” mockers that such a day will (1) catch them unexpected, and, (2) involve the immediate, complete and final judgment. He cites the total destruction of the unrighteous in Noah’s day as a picture and evidence of what will occur. 2 Peter 3:5-6 confirms: “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.” As in Noah’s day, the wicked scoffers will be shocked when the day of the Lord overtakes them as a “thief in the night.” That seems to be the import of Peter’s argument. The fiery indignation described in this reading destroys the unrighteous and their distain at Christ’s appearing. In fact, in order for the folly of the wicked (in regard to their delusion on Christ’s coming) to be exposed and eliminated the Lord must return in fiery judgment and expose their ignorance.

You can imagine these last days cynics mocking, as the end of time approaches: “2000 years ago He said His return was ‘at hand’ or ‘near’.” “He said He was coming ‘quickly’ or ‘shortly’.” “He promised His return was imminent. But alas nothing!” “Where is He?”

Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory; He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalms 93:2).

I'm not denying that Christ shall physically come again without any delay! The Scripture leaves no doubt. As I've said I believe the context will determine whether it speaks of things that are now at hand, and near, during this Gospel age, and His coming again without delay, quickly or suddenly to those who are not looking for His coming. John wrote of things which must "shortly come to pass".

Revelation 1:1 (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Shortly means a brief space of time, promptly, swiftly, speedily, and in haste. This verse is not referring to Christ's coming in the clouds after the Gospel has been preached to all the world. That which John writes "must shortly come to pass" is to be applied to the seven churches he is writing to as they faithfully proclaim the Gospel unto all the world through the power of Christ in them through His Holy Spirit. The things Christ instructed John to write and send to the seven churches would be a mockery for the first century churches if that which "must shortly come to pass" speaks only of Christ' coming again on the last day.

 

[rwb]

Strong’s Definitions:

• To bring near, to join one thing to another.
• To draw or come near to, to approach.

I've given every verse I found in my KJB, and none of them interpret 'approach' or 'approaching'. None of the 30 verses imply few or even a great many years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are so many contradictions and butchering of the sacred text in Preterism that it is hard to know where to start when refuting it. The most troubling aspect (of course) is their dangerous, obsessive and unbiblical fixation with the coming of Titus and AD70, instead of Christ's person and future glorious return at the end of the world. That is all they want to talk about. How sad! If you notice when you engage with them, most never want to talk about Jesus' glorious future return in majesty and glory to introduce everlasting perfection, righteousness and justice on the new earth. That is because many do not even believe in a future second coming. That is plainly heretical! They should not be allowed to espouse such error in Christian circles.

They wrongly take words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near” that relate to the future coming of Christ as relating to AD 70. But Jesus did not physically come then. Every eye did not see Him. The general resurrection/judgment did not occur. The corrupted heavens, earth and elements were obviously not burnt up then. The NHNE were not introduced then. This theory is nonsensical, erroneous and unscriptural. This totally exposes their error.

Most Bible-believing Christians rightly take such predictions from the Holy Spirit pertaining to Christ’s return like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near” as expressing time from God’s eternal standpoint, not man’s natural position. Amils equally take teaching and metaphoric phrases like the “thousand years” in Revelation 20 that expressly runs from from the first resurrection till a period of severe persecution before the literal physical return of Jesus, and the general resurrection/judgment as an actual literal lengthy time period, which we are now in. This corresponds with Matthew 25:14, 19-30 which describes the same intra-advent period and associated events. This is notable described by Jesus as “a long time.”

Here again, both the righteous and the wicked receive their judgment at the all-consummating Second Advent of the Lord – “at my coming.” Not simply the wicked, but the righteous servants are brought before the bar of God to account for their talents.

While Preterists would have us believe that Jesus is contradicting Himself, we know that Matthew 25:14, 19-30 and Revelation 20 are looking at time form man’s perspective. After all, Moses instructs in Psalms 90:3-5: “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.”

2 Peter 3:8-9 reinforces this thought: “beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack (or slow) concerning his promise, as some men count slackness (slowness).”

Our view of time is completely different from God's. There is a big difference between God’s heavenly eternal perspective and our earthly temporal perspective, something you do not seem to grasp. The phrases “a long time” and “a short time” are all subject to the one talking, their perspective and the subject matter under discussion. From man's perspective 2000 years is a long time. From God's perspective it is not. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalms 93:2).

The objective and informed Bible student will see the contrast between the thousand years in Revelation 20 which represents a long time and Satan's little season which represents a short period of time near the end.

Absolutely. I agree with all of this. Preterists continually try to insist that the terms "near", "soon", etc. must be understood literally and from man's perspective, but why should we act as if man's perspective is what is most important? Is it not God's perspective that is most important when it comes to the timing of the fulfillments of prophecy? Of course. But, preterists don't take that into consideration. It's as if they've never read 2 Peter 3:8-9.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not denying that Christ shall physically come again without any delay! The Scripture leaves no doubt. As I've said I believe the context will determine whether it speaks of things that are now at hand, and near, during this Gospel age, and His coming again without delay, quickly or suddenly to those who are not looking for His coming. John wrote of things which must "shortly come to pass".

Revelation 1:1 (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Shortly means a brief space of time, promptly, swiftly, speedily, and in haste. This verse is not referring to Christ's coming in the clouds after the Gospel has been preached to all the world. That which John writes "must shortly come to pass" is to be applied to the seven churches he is writing to as they faithfully proclaim the Gospel unto all the world through the power of Christ in them through His Holy Spirit. The things Christ instructed John to write and send to the seven churches would be a mockery for the first century churches if that which "must shortly come to pass" speaks only of Christ' coming again on the last day.

It's true that John did write some things that were to shortly come to pass in relation to the seven churches, as described in Revelation 2 and 3. So, it's possible that, in this case, he was being literal and referring to time from man's perspective rather than God's. But, the problem is that preterists take that statement and apply it to the entire book. That was obviously not God's intention.

Preterists seem to forget what John said later in the chapter.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

So, while Revelation 1:1 may speak specifically about things related to the seven churches, I believe Revelation 1:19 refers to things written about in the entire book. John was to write about things that happened in the past, things that were currently happening and things that would happen from then on until the end of time. So, we can't read Revelation 1:1 without keeping Revelation 1:19 in mind.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Preterists do indeed have difficulty with these words that indicate the nearness of Christ. It doesn't even make any sense to suppose "quickly", "shortly", or "near" can be pointing to Christ coming in AD 70 which was some 30 or so years away.

How can we make sense of Christ' coming "quickly," "shortly," or "near" since it's been about 2000 years and still the prophesy of His coming again is unfulfilled?

I believe Christ has come again when He sent His Spirit to be in us. When Christ sent His Spirit His prophetic words "I will come to you" were fulfilled. When we are filled with the Spirit of Christ in us, we have Christ in us. The prophesy of His coming as that which is quickly, shortly, and near has come just as Scripture promised.

John 14:18 (KJV) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Romans 8:10 (KJV) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

I believe we err when we interpret "quickly,", "shortly," or "near" as that which would not come until AD 70, or that which would not come until Christ physically returns at the end of this age. I may be missing something, but IMO it makes more sense to realize the Christ has come to us already through His Spirit just as He promised. The Spirit is near unto all who call on the name of Christ, the Gospel preached in the power of His Spirit is but a moment away for whosoever hears and believes in Christ.

Romans 10:13 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

First of all, I fully understand that when the Spirit of God/Jesus comes to dwell in us when we are spiritually saved, that can be considered a coming of Christ. However, I'm not sure if I understand your point in terms of references to Him coming "quickly" or "shortly" or that His coming is "near".

Here are a few verses where He said He will come quickly.

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book....12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be....20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

In these verses the word "quickly" is translated from the Greek word "tachy" (Strong's G5035). If you look at how the word is used in other verses, you can see that it's used literally, as in something happening immediately or in a very short amount of time.

Is it your contention that Jesus was talking about coming to dwell in people spiritually in verses like these?

To me, He was not referring to the amount of time it would be until He would come in these verses at all. I think He was basically saying the same thing there as what He said here:

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I believe that in this verse Jesus was saying that once He comes, it will happen very quickly. As quickly "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west", which is almost instantly.

Here is one verse that preterists use to support their belief that Jesus's coming was literally near and soon to happen shortly before 70 AD.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray.

So, was Peter talking about what would happen in 70 AD and saying that it was near from man's perspective? I don't think so, especially when you keep in mind what he wrote here:

2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[b] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

It seems clear to me that Peter wrote about the end of all things in this passage, but indicated that we need to keep in mind that the Lord is not being slow to keep His promise to come and put an end to and restore/renew all things. This is near from His perspective since a day and a thousand years are no different to Him. So, in this sense, I believe WPM is making a very good point in his OP and it's one that preterists fail to take into consideration.

So, what verses or passages exactly are you referring to where it talks about His coming as being "near" or happening "shortly" or "quickly" that you believe are referring to Him coming spiritually rather than referring to His future bodily second coming?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Scripture and history expose liars.

DECEIVERS

Matthew: “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many” (24:4,5).
Mark: “And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many” (13:5,6).
Luke: “And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them” (21:8).

We notice that all three accounts warn about deceivers. But Luke’s account explains WHEN these things would happen. Jesus Said: “And the time DRAWETH NEAR: go ye not therefore after them.” Jesus was not talking about something that would take place hundreds or thousands of years later. Jesus was warning his disciples about something that was drawing near in their time. This is plain.

Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour’s death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY — a statement which indicates that there were many of such in those days.

An Egyptian who “pretended to be a prophet” gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show “how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down.”

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet.

These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were a great number, and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be “many.”

Great Prophecies of the Bible
Ralph Woodrow

Would you agree that in those verses you referenced at the beginning of your post Jesus was talking about things that would happen before "the end"? In other words, would you agree that not only Matthew 24:4-5, but also Matthew 24:6-14 are things that would have to occur before "the end"? If so, what was "the end" that He was talking about? I believe it was "the end of the age" that He was previously asked about. Do you see 70 AD as being when "the end of the age" occurred?

 

[rwb]

First of all, I fully understand that when the Spirit of God/Jesus comes to dwell in us when we are spiritually saved, that can be considered a coming of Christ. However, I'm not sure if I understand your point in terms of references to Him coming "quickly" or "shortly" or that His coming is "near".

The coming of Christ through His Spirit in us is but a spoken Word away. Because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Gospel (Word). Not only is the coming of Christ through His Spirit quick, shortly and near as the Gospel began to be proclaimed unto all the world, but the second coming of Christ too shall come without warning, and very unexpectedly to those who are not looking for His coming again.

It makes no sense to apply these words quickly, shortly, or near to AD 70 or some two thousand years later. Logic is found only in understanding that by His Gospel sent in the power of the Holy Spirit Christ has indeed come to us, just as He promised. When Christ sent His Spirit to be in us is when He comes to us. So His coming is near to whosoever shall call upon the Lord.

John 14:18 (KJV) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

It's no different than when Paul writes that he would come shortly. The Corinthians didn't doubt Paul's coming would be to them, and not many years after they have long ago died.

1 Corinthians 4:19 (KJV) But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.

That is NOT to say that the coming of Christ the second time will not also be without delay just as the Scripture promises, and that when He comes again all things written of that DAY shall ALL come to pass.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The coming of Christ through His Spirit in us is but a spoken Word away.

What does that mean exactly?

The coming of Christ through His Spirit in us is but a spoken Word away. Because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Gospel (Word). Not only was the coming of Christ through His Spirit quick, shortly and near as the Gospel began to be proclaimed unto all the world, but the second coming of Christ too shall come without warning, and very unexpectedly to those who are not looking for His coming again.

You're being a bit vague here, so I'll need you to clarify what you're talking about here. When you talk about "the coming of Christ through His Spirit" are you talking in terms of His Spirit coming to dwell in people such as what began happening long ago on the day of Pentecost?

It makes no sense to apply these words quickly, shortly, or near to AD 70 or some two thousand years later.

I agree in terms of applying them to 70 AD, but disagree about applying them to 2,000 years later and I explained why. For some reason, you did not respond to what I said regarding how the words "near" and "quickly" in verses like 1 Peter 4:7 and Revelation 22:7/12/20 can be understood. Why is it that you didn't respond to what I said about those verses? I'd like to know your thoughts about what I said about them.

Logic is found only in understanding that by His Gospel sent in the power of the Holy Spirit Christ has indeed come to us, just as He promised. When Christ sent His Spirit to be in us is when He comes to us. So His coming is near to whosoever shall call upon the Lord.

So, which verses exactly that speak of His coming as being near or coming quickly do you think that applies to? Do you think that applies to verses like these:

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray.

James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

John 14:18 (KJV) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

This verse is obviously referring to when His Spirit would come to them spiritually on the day of Pentecost. I'm not denying that He spoke of that, but I'd like to know your thoughts on verses such as the ones I referenced above.

It's no different than when Paul writes that he would come shortly. The Corinthians didn't doubt Paul's coming would be to them, and not many years after they have long ago died.

1 Corinthians 4:19 (KJV) But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.

That is NOT to say that the coming of Christ the second time will not also be without delay just as the Scripture promises, and that when He comes again all things written of that DAY shall ALL come to pass.

Which verses relating to a coming of Christ that refer to Him coming shortly (other than John 14:18) do you think relate to the coming of His Spirit rather than the future second bodily coming of Christ?

 

[covenantee]

Would you agree that in those verses you referenced at the beginning of your post Jesus was talking about things that would happen before "the end"? In other words, would you agree that not only Matthew 24:4-5, but also Matthew 24:6-14 are things that would have to occur before "the end"? If so, what was "the end" that He was talking about? I believe it was "the end of the age" that He was previously asked about. Do you see 70 AD as being when "the end of the age" occurred?

Yes, the "end" in verse 14 refers to the end occurring in 70 AD. This is corroborated by verses which follow verse 14 which continue to describe events associated with and leading up to 70 AD.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, the "end" in verse 14 refers to the end occurring in 70 AD. This is corroborated by verses which follow verse 14 which continue to describe events associated with and leading up to 70 AD.

I disagree that it relates to 70 AD since I believe that "the end" He referenced referred to "the end of the age" He asked about and I don't believe there was an end to any age in 70 AD.

I asked if you believe "the end" He referenced in Matthew 24:4-14 refers to the end of the age, but you didn't answer that question. Is that your understanding? If so, what age do you think ended in 70 AD? Also, do you believe His coming they asked about correlated directly with the end of the age?

I guess what I'm ultimately getting at with these questions is to determine whether or not you are a partial preterist. Do you consider yourself to be a partial preterist? I didn't think that you were. I thought you were a historicist.

 

[covenantee]

I disagree that it relates to 70 AD since I believe that "the end" He referenced referred to "the end of the age" He asked about and I don't believe there was an end to any age in 70 AD.

I asked if you believe "the end" He referenced in Matthew 24:4-14 refers to the end of the age, but you didn't answer that question. Is that your understanding? If so, what age do you think ended in 70 AD? Also, do you believe His coming they asked about correlated directly with the end of the age?

I guess what I'm ultimately getting at with these questions is to determine whether or not you are a partial preterist. Do you consider yourself to be a partial preterist? I didn't think that you were. I thought you were a historicist.

70 AD was the end of the OT Jewish economy. The word "age" is neither explicit nor implicit in verse 14.

Consistent with the interpretation of verse 14 by historicist commentators.

Adam Clarke
Then shall the end come - When this general publication of the Gospel shall have taken place, then a period shall be put to the whole Jewish economy, by the utter destruction of their city and temple.

John Gill
and then shall the end come; not the end of the world, as the Ethiopic version reads it, and others understand it; but the end of the Jewish state, the end of the city and temple: so that the universal preaching of the Gospel all over the world, was the last criterion and sign, of the destruction of Jerusalem; and the account of that itself next follows, with the dismal circumstances which attended it.

Albert Barnes
Then shall the end come - The end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of the temple and city.


The end of the age in verse 3 refers to the Second Coming.

 

[WPM]

I've given every verse I found in my KJB, and none of them interpret 'approach' or 'approaching'. None of the 30 verses imply few or even a great many years.

In one breath you admit a second meaning relating to the second coming, in the next you deny it. So, you are fighting with yourself.

70 AD was the end of the OT Jewish economy. The word "age" is neither explicit nor implicit in verse 14.

Consistent with the interpretation of verse 14 by historicist commentators.

Adam Clarke
Then shall the end come - When this general publication of the Gospel shall have taken place, then a period shall be put to the whole Jewish economy, by the utter destruction of their city and temple.

John Gill
and then shall the end come; not the end of the world, as the Ethiopic version reads it, and others understand it; but the end of the Jewish state, the end of the city and temple: so that the universal preaching of the Gospel all over the world, was the last criterion and sign, of the destruction of Jerusalem; and the account of that itself next follows, with the dismal circumstances which attended it.

Albert Barnes
Then shall the end come - The end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of the temple and city.


The end of the age in verse 3 refers to the Second Coming.

I have to disagree. The cross was. The old covenant died then. It was finished. It was given a decent burial in AD70.