Preterism misrepresents Scripture

[WPM]

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1451. ἐγγύς engys (engýs)
Search for G1451 in KJVSL; in KJV.

ἐγγύς engýs, eng-goos'

from a primary verb ἄγχω ánchō (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of G43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time):—from , at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

adverb

Strong's Greek Dictionary
43. ἀγκάλη ankale (ankálē)
Search for G43 in KJVSL; in KJV.

ἀγκάλη ankálē, ang-kal'-ay

from ἄγκος ánkos (a bend, "ache"); an arm (as curved):—arm.

feminine noun

In the KJB there are 30 verses translated from the Greek word 1451. ἐγγύς

None of these 30 verses have translated "approaches". Every verse is translated "nigh", "nigh at hand", "from" (- 1 time), "at hand", "ready." Below are the verses. Can you show which, if any, of these 30 verses are indicating whatever is written shall be in the far distant future as might be if it is something that approaches?

Mt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mt 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mr 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mr 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Lu 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
Lu 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Lu 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Joh 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 3:23 And John also was baptizing in AEnon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
Joh 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
Joh 6:19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
Joh 6:23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks
Joh 7:2 Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.
Joh 11:18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
Joh 11:54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.
Joh 11:55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.
Joh 19:20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
Joh 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
Ac 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Ac 9:38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.
Ac 27:8 And, hardly passing it, came unto a place which is called The fair havens; nigh whereunto was the city of Lasea.
Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Re 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Re 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

From who's perspective? That is my argument. We either look at the events of life from God’s heavenly perspective or from man's earthly perspective. As humans, we tend to look at things from a natural, earthly, temporal standpoint. That is why we miss the deep meaning of heavenly truths.

For someone waiting at a bus stop for a late bus on a cold damp winter’s day, 20 minites is a long time. To someone enjoying intimacy with their sweetheart, 20 minutes is so quick.

 

[rwb]

In one breath you admit a second meaning relating to the second coming, in the next you deny it. So, you are fighting with yourself.

I said: "I've given every verse I found in my KJB, and none of them interpret 'approach' or 'approaching'. None of the 30 verses imply few or even a great many years."

The 30 verses don't imply years of any amount, they speak plainly of things that would happen almost immediately, if not immediately. Things that came to pass within days, and hours not years! That's exactly what John meant when he said "the time is at hand." This is NOT speaking of the return of Christ that was in the far distant future. So, what is at hand when John wrote these words Paul? Is it NOT the spiritual Kingdom of God we enter when we are born again of His Spirit in us to be proclaimed unto all the earth? Now that the Spirit has been sent, the spiritual Kingdom of God is heaven is being built in all the nations of the world. And when the Kingdom is complete when the seventh angel begins to sound that time for preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom shall be no more, Christ will QUICKLY return in ONE day and all that is foretold shall happen then shall very suddenly, without haste, come to pass.

When John says "Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand", he is not saying the time for Christ to come again is at hand. The prophecy that Daniel was instructed to seal up until the latter days was the prophecy of Christ coming in His Kingdom that is NOW to be proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth.

Daniel 12:4 (KJV) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Revelation 22:10 (KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

 

[WPM]

I said: "I've given every verse I found in my KJB, and none of them interpret 'approach' or 'approaching'. None of the 30 verses imply few or even a great many years."

The 30 verses don't imply years of any amount, they speak plainly of things that would happen almost immediately, if not immediately. Things that came to pass within days, and hours not years! That's exactly what John meant when he said "the time is at hand." This is NOT speaking of the return of Christ that was in the far distant future. So, what is at hand when John wrote these words Paul? Is it NOT the spiritual Kingdom of God we enter when we are born again of His Spirit in us to be proclaimed unto all the earth? Now that the Spirit has been sent, the spiritual Kingdom of God is heaven is being built in all the nations of the world. And when the Kingdom is complete when the seventh angel begins to sound that time for preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom shall be no more, Christ will QUICKLY return in ONE day and all that is foretold shall happen then shall very suddenly, without haste, come to pass.

When John says "Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand", he is not saying the time for Christ to come again is at hand. The prophecy that Daniel was instructed to seal up until the latter days was the prophecy of Christ coming in His Kingdom that is NOW to be proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth.

Daniel 12:4 (KJV) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Revelation 22:10 (KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh [Gr. eggizō - present active indicative].

Are you saying this is not talking about the coming of the Lord?

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand [Gr. eggizō]: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Are you saying this is not talking about the coming of the Lord?

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching [Gr. eggizō].

Are you saying this is not talking about the coming of the Lord?

1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand [Gr. eggizō]: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Are you saying this is not talking about the coming of the Lord?

James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh [Gr. eggizō - present active indicative].

Are you saying this is not talking about the coming of the Lord?

 

[covenantee]

In one breath you admit a second meaning relating to the second coming, in the next you deny it. So, you are fighting with yourself.

I have to disagree. The cross was. The old covenant died then. It was finished. It was given a decent burial in AD70.

I concur that the old covenant died at the cross. But virtually all of the Jewish OT temporal economy remained, e.g. Jerusalem and the temple, which Jesus addressed in His Olivet discourse, and which necessitated the judgment and destruction of AD70.

 

[WPM]

I concur that the old covenant died at the cross. But virtually all of the Jewish OT temporal economy remained, e.g. Jerusalem and the temple, which Jesus addressed in His Olivet discourse, and which necessitated the judgment and destruction of AD70.

Agreed! Hebrews 8:13: “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old (palaioō, worn out, decayed, declared obsolete). Now that which decayeth (palaioō, worn out, decayed, declared obsolete) and waxeth old (gerasko) is ready to vanish away.”

After Christ’s death and the ripping of the curtain in two, the Jewish temple in Jerusalem was rendered wholly redundant. Its usefulness was over. It was obsolete. It remaining standing up until AD70 did not mean it had any further earthly purpose, or that the old covenant remained in effect. It was just like a human corpse awaiting burial. It had no vitality, no relevance and no purpose. Once Christ died, the old covenant died. Degeneration immediately set in, just like the decay that kicks in when a human gives up the ghost.

Paul shows us that the old covenant was decaying and ready to vanish away after the cross. Of course, anything that is decaying is already dead. From then on it is just rotting and in urgent need of a decent burial.

A corpse does not normally vanish from sight immediately upon death until it is put into the grave and buried. But corruption, decay, degeneration has already kicked in. It is lifeless. It is powerless. It simply needs a decent burial. That is how the old covenant was between AD30 and AD70. A corpse can still be visible but it is lifeless and has no ability to function. That is what happened to the old covenant between AD30-70.

Even though a corpse may look asleep, it is lifeless. All you have is rotting flesh. Decomposition has set in immediately. It is gradually decaying, and will ultimately vanish away. But that entity has no further earthly use. Its time is up.

Preterists can do their best to beautify this deceased corpse, they can try their best to raise its lifeless carcass from the dead, and they can attribute life to it all they want, but it is all in vain, it is still absolutely and totally deceased.

By calling this covenant “new,” Jesus rendered the first covenant obsolete. What is more, what was rotting, obsolete and outdated was soon to disappear with the destruction of the Jewish temple.

 

[rwb]

What does that mean exactly?

It means faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word (Gospel) of God.

Romans 10:8-10 (KJV) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:13 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 14:18 (KJV) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Romans 8:10 (KJV) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

This is why I say, "The coming of Christ through His Spirit in us is but a spoken Word away." Is this still too vague or is it clear enough for you?

I agree in terms of applying them to 70 AD, but disagree about applying them to 2,000 years later and I explained why. For some reason, you did not respond to what I said regarding how the words "near" and "quickly" in verses like 1 Peter 4:7 and Revelation 22:7/12/20 can be understood. Why is it that you didn't respond to what I said about those verses? I'd like to know your thoughts about what I said about them.

1 Peter 4:7 (KJV) But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

The Greek word defined in 1Pe 4:7 'is at hand' comes from the Greek word ἐγγίζω and unlike the Greek word ἐγγύς which is also sometimes translated at hand, can be and is sometimes translated approaches or draws near. But where the Greek word ἐγγύς has been translated 'at hand' it is always referring to whatever is in view as occurring in perhaps minutes or hours, but never more than at most mere days.

The way to understand 'is at hand' in 1Pe 4:7 should be the end of all things is approaching or drawing near, which is true. Because the end times or these last day came with Christ when He came with His Kingdom.

Acts 2:17 (KJV) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

2 Peter 3:3 (KJV) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Peter isn't saying the second coming of Christ is at hand. He is simply saying that all that is ordained to be fulfilled with the first advent of Christ after His coming has come. So we don't have to try to discern time from God's perspective. We know from the time we live in that all that is written of Christ shall come to pass during this age of time. And that Christ will not return before the seventh angel sounds that time given this earth for building the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete.

Rev 22:7 should be understood as Christ coming again without delay, unexpectedly, and suddenly. That is how the Greek word ταχύ translated 'quickly' is defined.

Rev 22:12 & 20 same as quickly in vs 7.

These verses assure us that Christ is indeed coming, without making any reference to how much time will pass before He comes 'without delay', 'unexpectedly', and 'suddenly' for those who are not looking for His coming. So once again we aren't being ask to discern time from God's perspective of time.

James 5:8 - The coming of the Lord in approaching. This has been true since Christ departed from this earth, leaving the faithful saints with the promise that He would return in the same manner He was seen living. That is physically with the clouds of heaven.

This verse is obviously referring to when His Spirit would come to them spiritually on the day of Pentecost. I'm not denying that He spoke of that, but I'd like to know your thoughts on verses such as the ones I referenced above.

John 14:18 (KJV) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Exactly! That's what I have already stated. Christ comes to His people since He sent His Spirit to be in the saints. It is by His Spirit in us tha Christ has already come spiritually to believers.

 

[rwb]

Yes, the "end" in verse 14 refers to the end occurring in 70 AD. This is corroborated by verses which follow verse 14 which continue to describe events associated with and leading up to 70 AD.

The cross of Christ is the end for Old Covenant Israel. AD 70 is fulfillment of the destruction Christ said would come to the nation, and proof their house had been left utterly desolate.

 

[rwb]

From who's perspective? That is my argument. We either look at the events of life from God’s heavenly perspective or from man's earthly perspective. As humans, we tend to look at things from a natural, earthly, temporal standpoint. That is why we miss the deep meaning of heavenly truths.

For someone waiting at a bus stop for a late bus on a cold damp winter’s day, 20 minites is a long time. To someone enjoying intimacy with their sweetheart, 20 minutes is so quick.

I don't believe man is asked to view time from God's perspective. How would that even be possible since God does not exist in time. Time was given for the natural, physical earth and mankind living upon it. Neither do I believe that I miss deep meaning of heavenly truths because I don't attempt to understand time from God's perspective.

You say we must view time from the perspective of God, then give an earthly example of time to make your point. What purpose does that serve? How could that help me to view time from God's perspective, since He exists outside of time?

 

[ScottA]

There are so many contradictions and butchering of the sacred text in Preterism that it is hard to know where to start when refuting it. The most troubling aspect (of course) is their dangerous, obsessive and unbiblical fixation with the coming of Titus and AD70, instead of Christ's person and future glorious return at the end of the world. That is all they want to talk about. How sad! If you notice when you engage with them, most never want to talk about Jesus' glorious future return in majesty and glory to introduce everlasting perfection, righteousness and justice on the new earth. That is because many do not even believe in a future second coming. That is plainly heretical! They should not be allowed to espouse such error in Christian circles.

They wrongly take words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near” that relate to the future coming of Christ as relating to AD 70. But Jesus did not physically come then. Every eye did not see Him. The general resurrection/judgment did not occur. The corrupted heavens, earth and elements were obviously not burnt up then. The NHNE were not introduced then. This theory is nonsensical, erroneous and unscriptural. This totally exposes their error.

Most Bible-believing Christians rightly take such predictions from the Holy Spirit pertaining to Christ’s return like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near” as expressing time from God’s eternal standpoint, not man’s natural position. Amils equally take teaching and metaphoric phrases like the “thousand years” in Revelation 20 that expressly runs from from the first resurrection till a period of severe persecution before the literal physical return of Jesus, and the general resurrection/judgment as an actual literal lengthy time period, which we are now in. This corresponds with Matthew 25:14, 19-30 which describes the same intra-advent period and associated events. This is notably described by Jesus as “a long time.”

Both the righteous and the wicked receive their judgment at the all-consummating Second Advent of the Lord – “at my coming.” Not simply the wicked, but the righteous servants are brought before the bar of God to account for their talents.

While Preterists would have us believe that Jesus is contradicting Himself, we know that Matthew 25:14, 19-30 and Revelation 20 are looking at time form man’s perspective. After all, Moses instructs in Psalms 90:3-5: “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.”

2 Peter 3:8-9 reinforces this thought: “beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack (or slow) concerning his promise, as some men count slackness (slowness).”

Our view of time is completely different from God's. There is a big difference between God’s heavenly eternal perspective and our earthly temporal perspective, something you do not seem to grasp. The phrases “a long time” and “a short time” are all subject to the one talking, their perspective and the subject matter under discussion. From man's perspective 2000 years is a long time. From God's perspective it is not. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalms 93:2).

The objective and informed Bible student will see the contrast between the thousand years in Revelation 20 which represents a long time and Satan's little season which represents a short period of time near the end.

The problem is, the error listed here is equal to the error of the Preterist.

Notice that I include "the error of the Preterists"-- indicating that I do not espouse their beliefs.

So, you can continue to point to the speck in their eye, or we can perhaps look at the plank in your own eye. Are you even open to that? I have yet to find anyone even willing to consider that the false teachings that were to enter into the church foretold by Peter and the believing of a lie and strong delusion foretold by Paul has or will ever occur--except with "the other guys"...those with the speck in their eye.

I submit that your own (and indeed, most of Christendom's) beliefs are in error according to what is written and foretold regarding false teachings entering the church and the believing of a lie causing strong delusion; that unlike the Preterists who believe that Christ's return was one specific date or time in the past, most or Christendom has and does believe that the time of Christ's return is rather in the future on one specific date or time. According to scripture both are in error, as neither belief accounts for Paul's clarification that the timing is not a mass world event, but is personal and individual, saying, "but each one in his own order" ("each one" according to the original language, meaning: each individual person), which is to say: each individual person in his own time.

My saying so is not for discussion and is not open for debate, but is for reproof according to Proverbs 1, only to be received or rejected.

 

[WPM]

I don't believe man is asked to view time from God's perspective. How would that even be possible since God does not exist in time. Time was given for the natural, physical earth and mankind living upon it. Neither do I believe that I miss deep meaning of heavenly truths because I don't attempt to understand time from God's perspective.

You say we must view time from the perspective of God, then give an earthly example of time to make your point. What purpose does that serve? How could that help me to view time from God's perspective, since He exists outside of time?

I was showing you that one's take on time is determined by who is talking and tied to what we are talking about. I stand by that. Scriptures teaches a lot from the divine perspective. I am not sure by you question that.

 

[rwb]

I was showing you that one's take on time is determined by who is talking and tied to what we are talking about. I stand by that. Scriptures teaches a lot from the divine perspective. I am not sure by you question that.

I don't question the Divine perspective. I question that I am able to discern His perspective of time. I have only 24 hour days to guide me, and God resides outside of this time. He is from everlasting to everlasting without time. That's why it is written that a thousand years and one day are not relevant to God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

70 AD was the end of the OT Jewish economy. The word "age" is neither explicit nor implicit in verse 14.

Consistent with the interpretation of verse 14 by historicist commentators.

Adam Clarke
Then shall the end come - When this general publication of the Gospel shall have taken place, then a period shall be put to the whole Jewish economy, by the utter destruction of their city and temple.

John Gill
and then shall the end come; not the end of the world, as the Ethiopic version reads it, and others understand it; but the end of the Jewish state, the end of the city and temple: so that the universal preaching of the Gospel all over the world, was the last criterion and sign, of the destruction of Jerusalem; and the account of that itself next follows, with the dismal circumstances which attended it.

Albert Barnes
Then shall the end come - The end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of the temple and city.


The end of the age in verse 3 refers to the Second Coming.

I think it makes a lot of sense that after being asked a question about "the end of the age" that any reference He made to "the end" should be understood to refer to the end of the age. So, I have to disagree with you (and those commentators) on this.

So, in terms of Matthew 24, is it your view that He talked about things related to 70 AD up to verse 22 and then started talking about His coming at the end of the age after that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It means faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word (Gospel) of God.

Romans 10:8-10 (KJV) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:13 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 14:18 (KJV) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Romans 8:10 (KJV) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

This is why I say, "The coming of Christ through His Spirit in us is but a spoken Word away." Is this still too vague or is it clear enough for you?

I, of course, understand the concept of the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ) coming to dwell in us, which happens upon conversion. But, what I'm trying to get at is where does scripture speak of this in terms of talking about it coming quickly or being near, etc.? That is the topic that we were talking about. Is it your intention to say that any reference to His coming as being near (or anything similar) is a reference to the coming of His Spirit? Such as this verse, for example:

James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near.

1 Peter 4:7 (KJV) But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

The Greek word defined in 1Pe 4:7 'is at hand' comes from the Greek word ἐγγίζω and unlike the Greek word ἐγγύς which is also sometimes translated at hand, can be and is sometimes translated approaches or draws near. But where the Greek word ἐγγύς has been translated 'at hand' it is always referring to whatever is in view as occurring in perhaps minutes or hours, but never more than at most mere days.

The way to understand 'is at hand' in 1Pe 4:7 should be the end of all things is approaching or drawing near, which is true. Because the end times or these last day came with Christ when He came with His Kingdom.

Acts 2:17 (KJV) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

2 Peter 3:3 (KJV) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Peter isn't saying the second coming of Christ is at hand. He is simply saying that all that is ordained to be fulfilled with the first advent of Christ after His coming has come.

I have to disagree. Peter was not talking about something that had already happened before he wrote that, which is what you are talking about. It would not make sense for him to talk about something that had already happened in the past on the day of Pentecost as being at hand. He, obviously, is the same one who wrote 2 Peter 3:8-12 where he wrote about the literal end of all things and that it wasn't something that is taking a long time to occur from the Lord's perspective even if it may seem that way from man's perspective So, I think he was talking from the Lord's perspective in 1 Peter 4:7 as well. In the Lord's timing, it's as if the end of all things is at hand because it is continually approaching and sure to happen and the amount of time before it happens does not affect His perspective of how long it will be at all.

So we don't have to try to discern time from God's perspective.

It's not about discerning time from His perspective, it's about discerning when the NT authors are speaking of time from God's perspective or from man's perspective. To me, it's clear that the end of all things was not at hand or near when Peter wrote 1 Peter 4:7, so the only way I can reconcile what he said is if he was speaking in the same sense as when he wrote 2 Peter 3:8-12.

Rev 22:7 should be understood as Christ coming again without delay, unexpectedly, and suddenly. That is how the Greek word ταχύ translated 'quickly' is defined.

Rev 22:12 & 20 same as quickly in vs 7.

These verses assure us that Christ is indeed coming, without making any reference to how much time will pass before He comes 'without delay', 'unexpectedly', and 'suddenly' for those who are not looking for His coming. So once again we aren't being ask to discern time from God's perspective of time.

So, we're in agreement on how those verses should be interpreted then.

James 5:8 - The coming of the Lord in approaching. This has been true since Christ departed from this earth, leaving the faithful saints with the promise that He would return in the same manner He was seen living. That is physically with the clouds of heaven.

Okay, now this doesn't make sense to me. The same Greek word translated as "at hand" in 1 Peter 4:7 is translated as "approaching" or "near" in James 5:8. So, why are you interpreting James 5:8 in a different sense than you are interpreting 1 Peter 4:7? In 1 Peter 4:7 you said the word should be understood that it "is always referring to whatever is in view as occurring in perhaps minutes or hours, but never more than at most mere days.". Yet, you are not interpreting the word that way in James 5:8. Please explain this.

To me, my understanding of the word is the same in both 1 Peter 4:7 and James 5:8. I believe it's used to refer to time from the Lord's perspective and not man's in those verses.

John 14:18 (KJV) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Exactly! That's what I have already stated. Christ comes to His people since He sent His Spirit to be in the saints. It is by His Spirit in us tha Christ has already come spiritually to believers.

Right. I didn't say that you didn't already say that. What I was trying to do is see how you interpreted other verses that talk about His coming or the end being near, at hand, etc.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The cross of Christ is the end for Old Covenant Israel. AD 70 is fulfillment of the destruction Christ said would come to the nation, and proof their house had been left utterly desolate.

Right. But, what was being discussed was what Jesus meant when He referenced "the end" within Matthew 24:4-14. He referenced "the end" in verses 6, 13 and 14. I believe He was referring to "the end of the age" that He was being asked about. Since I believe the end of the age doesn't occur until His future second coming, I don't believe those verses relate to what happened in 70 AD. I believe He answered the question related to the destruction of the temple buildings in verses 15-21, but not in the verses preceding that. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[rwb]

I, of course, understand the concept of the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ) coming to dwell in us, which happens upon conversion. But, what I'm trying to get at is where does scripture speak of this in terms of talking about it coming quickly or being near, etc.? That is the topic that we were talking about. Is it your intention to say that any reference to His coming as being near (or anything similar) is a reference to the coming of His Spirit?

No.

James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near.

James 5:8 (KJVSL) Be μακροθυμέω ye ὑμεῖς also καί patient μακροθυμέω; stablish στηρίζω your ὑμῶν hearts καρδία: for ὅτι the coming παρουσία of the Lord κύριος draweth nigh ἐγγίζω.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1448. ἐγγίζω engizo (engízō)
Search for G1448 in KJVSL; in KJV

ἐγγίζω engízō, eng-id'-zo

from G1451; to make near, i.e. (reflexively) approach:—approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh.

As you can see, the Greek word translated "draweth nigh" is saying the coming of the Lord is approaching. You can confirm this yourself by looking at the various verses where this Greek word has been defined. If the coming of the Lord is approaching, or draweth near, there is not reference to time whether short or long. Therefore this verse does not support and opinion that the Lord has come in AD 70, nor does it tell us it will be a very long time before He comes again. The only conclusion we can draw is that the Lord shall come again, and that all is being made ready for His return whenever that shall be.

Peter was not talking about something that had already happened before he wrote that, which is what you are talking about. It would not make sense for him to talk about something that had already happened in the past on the day of Pentecost as being at hand.

Not everything ordained to come to pass when the Messiah came was finished at Pentecost. That was the beginning of these last days we've been living in since the cross. The end of all things has come and is coming, and is drawing near, is at hand, is ready to be fulfilled as the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is being built as the Gospel is proclaimed in the power of the Spirit.

 

[WPM]

I don't question the Divine perspective. I question that I am able to discern His perspective of time. I have only 24 hour days to guide me, and God resides outside of this time. He is from everlasting to everlasting without time. That's why it is written that a thousand years and one day are not relevant to God.

But Scripture actually teaches the difference. That was what I presented in the Op to give context and support, yet you are yet to acknowledge that.

Moses instructs in Psalms 90:3-5: “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.”

2 Peter 3:8-9 reinforces this thought: “beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack (or slow) concerning his promise, as some men count slackness (slowness).”

 

[covenantee]

I think it makes a lot of sense that after being asked a question about "the end of the age" that any reference He made to "the end" should be understood to refer to the end of the age. So, I have to disagree with you (and those commentators) on this.

The "end" in Matthew 24:3 is "sunteleia", referring to the end of the age at the Second Coming. cf. Matthew 13:39,40,49

The "end" in Matthew 24:6,13,14 is "telos". It does not refer in these instances to the end of an age, but rather to the end of the OT Jewish economy which occurred in 70AD.

 

[covenantee]

So, in terms of Matthew 24, is it your view that He talked about things related to 70 AD up to verse 22 and then started talking about His coming at the end of the age after that?

The focus on 70AD continues to at least verse 29, and arguably to verse 35, after which Jesus addresses His Second Coming.

 

[WPM]

The "end" in Matthew 24:3 is "sunteleia", referring to the end of the age at the Second Coming. cf. Matthew 13:39,40,49

The "end" in Matthew 24:6,13,14 is "telos". It does not refer in these instances to the end of an age, but rather to the end of the OT Jewish economy which occurred in 70AD.

Not sure how you come to that conclusion. But it is not true. When it comes to time, Scripture shows us that it has a definite beginning and a definite end. Before and after time we are looking at eternity. The beginning of time occurred when God created a means of measuring time – namely night and day. This revolves around His creation of the sun and the moon to provide distinct and calculable days, weeks, months and years. This takes us right back to creation. Time will end when Jesus comes in all His final majesty and glory. Time takes us from the commencement of “this age” to “the end of this age.” The term “this age” therefore applies to the whole period that covers time. Time finishes when Christ usher in eternity at His return.

This is seen by comparing the vivid and repeated biblical detail pertaining to “this age” and “the age to come.” This age is depicted as evil, carnal, corrupt and temporal, whereas, the age to come is depicted as perfect, renewed, glorified and eternal. This age involves mortal believers and unbelievers. The age to come belongs exclusively to the glorified elect. One must be worthy to inherit it (namely being redeemed). One must be fittingly prepared to enter it (namely through glorification). Sin, sinners, death and decay, rebellion and war, attend the whole duration of “this age,” whereas, the age to come is described as a perfected unending arrangement where perfected believers possess a perfected earth. All the ugly result of the fall is finally removed. Satan has been stripped of his power and banished to the lake of fire. Sin and sickness, corruption and the curse are now destroyed, never to race anymore.

The word telos, used in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 and 15:24, is coupled to, and prefixed with, the popular Greek word sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness. The word carries the overall meaning of the entire end.

Isaiah 46:9-10 uses two other Hebrew words that are more commonly used in the Old Testament. The text reads: “I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end [Heb. achărı̂yth] from the beginning [Heb. rê'shı̂yth], and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying.”

This contrast is extremely useful in that it gives us a sense of the two antithetical events – it gives us the two divergent realities. It also supplies us with two suitable Hebrew words for the same.

It is the same in the New Testament. Jesus teaches in Revelation 22:6: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [Gr. archē] and the end [Gr. telos].”

Jesus said in Revelation 22:13: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [Gr. archē] and the end [Gr. telos], the first [Gr. protos] and the last [Gr. eschatos].”

It is not hard to grasp the import of this teaching. Firstly, Alpha (Α or α) and omega (Ω or ω) are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. These sum up the divine character of Jesus. Next, we are confronted with the words “first” and “last.” The English words are taken from the Greek words protos and eschatos and are widely accepted by all unbiased theologians to denote exactly what they say. It is explicitly clear from their usage, meaning and context in the New Testament that these words are the exact antithesis of each other. Frequently they are found in the same verse and in the same setting to relay opposites. Also, we are told that Christ is “the beginning and the end.” Again, it is not hard to get our heads round this. He is from start to finish.

This text is telling us that Jesus is the source and completion of everything that occurs. Another Scripture that relays that seem great truth is Hebrews 12:2: “Looking unto Jesus the author [Gr. archēgos] and finisher [Gr. teleiōtēs] of our faith.”

Jesus makes clear (and unambiguously) in Matthew 24:14: “this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end (or telos) come.”

This couldn’t be clearer! Now is man's only hope of salvation. The whole wider redemptive history of mankind is encompassed between Adam and the second coming of the second Adam. The period that we are currently in today is the day of grace (the day of salvation). Jesus is not coming again as Savior but as Judge. Premils and Preterists do not believe that “the end” refers to the end. The phrase “the end” here refers to the conclusion or the completion.

The Apostle Paul instructs the believer in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 to “come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end [Gr. telos], that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This promise was never intended to relate to, or expire at, AD70. This is a promise that relates to our earthly sojourn in this sinful world in life and time.

 

[WPM]

The "end" in Matthew 24:3 is "sunteleia", referring to the end of the age at the Second Coming. cf. Matthew 13:39,40,49

The "end" in Matthew 24:6,13,14 is "telos". It does not refer in these instances to the end of an age, but rather to the end of the OT Jewish economy which occurred in 70AD.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 parallels, “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect (or teleios) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away … For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

The Greek word teleios (Strong’s 5046) which comes from the Greek word telos (Strong’s 5046), which we are very familiar with meaning ‘the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically, an impost or levy (as paid)’. It is speaking about the end – the consummation. In fact, the all-consummating Coming of Christ.

The limitations of this age are contrasted with the glory and the perfection of the age to come. After the Lord’s return, temporal gifts like prophecies, tongues and the gift of knowledge shall all vanish away. Why? We don’t need them anymore as we will have a full and perfect understanding of truth. However, “Charity never faileth.” A billion years into eternity we will still need love. We will love Christ throughout eternity. Love will never cease.

This age

(1) We know in part
(2) We see through a glass, darkly

The age to come

(1) “That which is in part shall be done away”
(2) “when that which is perfect is come … then shall I know even as also I am known.”

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

The Greek simply reads:

Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish. This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

The “coming” of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.