Davy, ~ neither keraz or myself ever (in this entire thread) said he did. We (keraz and myself, and brakelite) all stated that Alexander III the Great was in the previous verses. Who are you arguing against? (only yourself).
Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies
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Davy
Well-Known Member
Word play, fallacy, that's all that is. Maybe you're gonna' throw out long lists of Hebrew mysticism on 666 pointing to a pope!!!
No, what you do is the same thing orthodox unbelieving Jews do, hatred of the Roman Church, and attempts to HIDE the fact of the Jew's plan today to build another temple in Jerusalem, and startup the old covenant sacrifices again. I'm one here that is not fooled with all your gibberish.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Then why claim Papal Rome fulfilled those Dan.8:11-14 Scriptures when you well know they did not?
What if the bible itself reveals in explicit detail the absolute certain identification of the Antichrist and it's meaning. Would you throw that out as gibberish?
What if I just cite the koine Greek itself before getting to my "Hebrew mysticism"
•The very numerals themselves in Rev. 13:18 KJB, the “... Six hundred threescore and six.” have a [koine] Greek meaning for each numeral:
–666; chi-xi-stigma χξς:
•The meaning is “unmarried [single] father [man, calling himself ‘Abba’ (Father God)] who is ‘marked’ [as Cain] by claiming good works [claims good fruits], but all that he does is unlasting vanity [coming to a sudden end; as the fig tree with only pretensious leaves; Mat. 21:19; Mar. 11:13; or as Cain, killeth those like Abel; thinking he doeth God’s service]”. See also Mat. 6:5, 23:5 ; Jhn. 16:2 KJB, etc. The very position of popery, son of perdition, man of sin, Judas, Cain, Lucifer.
–666; chi-xi-stigma χξς:
–χ: the G22nd (agamos ἄγαμος unmarried, unwedded, single),
–ξ: G14th (agathoergeō ἀγαθοεργέω to work good, to do good, to do well, act rightly)
–ς: and an obsolete letter (4742 [stigma, mark, stick, prick] as a cross) of the Greek alphabet (intermediate between the G5th (abba ἀββα Abba = "father") and G6th (Habel Ἅβελ Abel = "vanity (that is: transitory)")), used as numbers” [Strong's Concordance].
–ξ: G14th (agathoergeō ἀγαθοεργέω to work good, to do good, to do well, act rightly)
–ς: and an obsolete letter (4742 [stigma, mark, stick, prick] as a cross) of the Greek alphabet (intermediate between the G5th (abba ἀββα Abba = "father") and G6th (Habel Ἅβελ Abel = "vanity (that is: transitory)")), used as numbers” [Strong's Concordance].
•The meaning is “unmarried [single] father [man, calling himself ‘Abba’ (Father God)] who is ‘marked’ [as Cain] by claiming good works [claims good fruits], but all that he does is unlasting vanity [coming to a sudden end; as the fig tree with only pretensious leaves; Mat. 21:19; Mar. 11:13; or as Cain, killeth those like Abel; thinking he doeth God’s service]”. See also Mat. 6:5, 23:5 ; Jhn. 16:2 KJB, etc. The very position of popery, son of perdition, man of sin, Judas, Cain, Lucifer.
You can find my study here - Sea of Glass (PowerPoint)
bbyrd009
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Davy, what did I say here? did I say anything about Alexander III the Great fulfilling any of the verse you just cited? Did I say that Rome did?:
Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies
I know of no such plan (except you will probably cite the same guy everyone does who believes as you do), and even the Jewish dept of Antiquities, and etc political offices in Jerusalem (earthly) know of no such plans (go ahead call them). Modern day Judaism is Rabbinism (even kabbalism), and doesn't even follow the Torah, but do things like wave chickens over their head, and do not practice the sacrifice of animals (a rare few try, though it is against their laws). There are some torah Jews that do follow Torah, as far as they are able (at least until the sanctuary services, like the previous karaites, etc). They cannot even locate the pure bloodline of Aaron for the Levitical priesthood for high priest (let alone Merarites, Gershonites, and Kohathites, etc). The Ark of the Covenant (still missing since the days of Jeremiah, as prophecy foretold), and so many other issues.
Only a few misguided persons (Jesuits, etc) are spreading such rumors as a rebuilt temple in earthly Jerusalem. (Ezekiel's third temple is the body of Christ, see the whole NT, we are lively (living) stones built upon the foundation, the rock, Jesus Christ, built up an spiritual house, and much, much more). It is all a mere distraction, and only a recent ideology.
I think you just quote things from others, and do not understand what you are citing.
Have you considered Matthew 18:22 as translated into Hebrew, "שבעים ושבע"; "שִׁבְעִים וָשֶׁבַע"(Salkinson-Ginsburg; Dalman-Delitzsch)? Which matches Daniel 9:24, "שָׁבֻעִים שִׁבְעִים"? Just as I stated they paralleled?
What about Genesis 4:24, "שִׁבְעִים וְשִׁבְעָה"?
Do you know that John Walvoord is specifically mentioned in the Jesuit-Futurism page I earlier cited? - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism
Theodore Kliefoth was a (neo) Lutheran (see also commentary in the Berlenberger Bible).
Carl Freidrich Keil was another Lutheran (German) commentator (student of German Lutheran E. W. Henstengberg), who in tandem with Delitzsch applied Daniel 9:25-27 to Antiochus IV Epiphanes (see commentary of Keil and Delitzsch on Daniel 9:24) as a mere type, of which, according to them, is to have another fulfillment in a future 'reality' Antichrist that will fully do what Antiochus IV Epiphanes only did in type.
In such commentary, it is stated, "... Hofmann and Kliefoth are in the right when they remark that שָׁבֻעִים does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, whose chronological duration must be determined on other grounds. ...", but notice, that in so saying, this places the entire number into nebulous nothing. It makes of all the numbers into an unknown, unspecified 'future', whose landing is now entirely uncertain, having no solid numbers to speak, since they just stated that the 70, and yea also 7 are merely representational, and then so also the 3 1/2 and 3 1/2 of the final "7". It is all imaginary then, and to claim that the final "7" (one week) is not as the first "7" before the "62" is simply wishful thinking and begging the question.
Their entire commentary on this is their own speculation, and their own presuppositions.
Yet, there were many of their own (Lutherans, Germans, Commentators) and in their day which disagreed with them, and they cite as such(those who disagreed with them) in their commentary, saying, "... That by this word common years are to be understood, is indeed taken for granted by many interpreters. ...". Why take their opinion over others (as cited here and in their own commentary) their equal, or even better? For instance, the Genevan Bible in its notation states, "(p) He alludes to Jeremiah's prophecy, who prophesied that their captivity would be seventy years: but now God's mercy would exceed his judgment seven times as much, which would be 490 years, even until the coming of Christ, and so then it would continue forever."
Hengstenberg (German Lutheran) stated that the 70 7's, were “concealed definiteness”, not indefiniteness as Keil and Kliefoth.
Even Bullinger stated, "... The whole period is therefore 490 years. ..."
Why not just go with the plain text before us?
What is amazing, that such commentary as above, even agrees with the definition I cited previous on the word "determined" - " ... The ἁπ. λεγ. חָתַךְ means in Chald. to cut off, to cut up into pieces, then to decide, to determine closely, e.g., Targ. Est_4:5; cf. ..."
More interesting is that the same commentary says, "... seventy sevenths are to be viewed as a whole, as a continued period of seventy seven times following each other. ..." and they do not mention any 'gaps', but just cited their nebulous 70 x 7 as a "whole", each "7" "following each other".
Davy, it is a direct translation from koine Greek to Latin.
Even Roman Catholicism admits this in so many words. Notice:
"Antichrist (Greek Antichristos). ... The word Antichrist occurs only in the Johannine Epistles; but there are so-called real parallelisms to these occurrences in the Apocalypse, in the Pauline Epistles, and less explicit ones in the Gospels and the Book of Daniel. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "A"; "Antichrist"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Antichrist http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01559a.htm
"...anti ... (in the place of...)..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "S"; "Sacrifice"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sacrifice http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13309a.htm
"Vicar of Christ (Latin Vicarius Christi). ... thus, Innocent III appeals for his power to remove bishops to the fact that he is Vicar of Christ (cap. "Inter corporalia", 2, "De trans. ep."). ... and states that it is the Roman Pontiff who is "the successor of Peter and the Vicar of Jesus Christ" (cap. "Licet", 4, ibid.). The title Vicar of God used for the pope by Nicholas III (c. "Fundamenta ejus", 17, "De elect.", in 6) is employed as an equivalent for Vicar of Christ" [Online Catholic Encyclopedia, Vicar of Christ] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Vicar of Christ
"Vicar (Latin vicarius, from vice, "instead of") ..." [Online Catholic Encyclopedia, Vicar] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Vicar
“All names which in the scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that he is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” [Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (Full Italian name: Roberto Francesco Romolo Bellarmino (Canonized-1930 and Doctor of the Church (Jesuit))), Disputationes de Controversiis (aka: Disputationes de Controversiis Christianae Fidei adversus hujus temporis Haereticos) [Lectures Concerning the Controversies of the Christian Faith Against the Heretics of This Time], Tom. 2, “Controversia Prima,” Book 2 (De Conciliorum Auctoritate)[“On Authority of the Councils”], Chapter 17, (1628 ed.) Vol. 1, pp. 266-translated]
Those names would then include [but not limited to], King of Kings, Lord of Lords, , the Way, The Truth and the Life and even "I AM". You will notice in many official papal documents that the words "Us, We, Our" are captialized from the pope's hand, copying the Bible even from Genesis.
“But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, ...” [“The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII”, Encyclical Letter June 20, 1894; http://www.space.net.au/~nethow/Sede/encyclicals/Leo13/L13PRAEC.HTM; Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae - Papal Encyclicals
http://www.users.qwest.net/~slrorer/ReunionOfChristendom.htm]
"...anti ... (in the place of...)..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "S"; "Sacrifice"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sacrifice http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13309a.htm
"Vicar of Christ (Latin Vicarius Christi). ... thus, Innocent III appeals for his power to remove bishops to the fact that he is Vicar of Christ (cap. "Inter corporalia", 2, "De trans. ep."). ... and states that it is the Roman Pontiff who is "the successor of Peter and the Vicar of Jesus Christ" (cap. "Licet", 4, ibid.). The title Vicar of God used for the pope by Nicholas III (c. "Fundamenta ejus", 17, "De elect.", in 6) is employed as an equivalent for Vicar of Christ" [Online Catholic Encyclopedia, Vicar of Christ] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Vicar of Christ
"Vicar (Latin vicarius, from vice, "instead of") ..." [Online Catholic Encyclopedia, Vicar] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Vicar
“All names which in the scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that he is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” [Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (Full Italian name: Roberto Francesco Romolo Bellarmino (Canonized-1930 and Doctor of the Church (Jesuit))), Disputationes de Controversiis (aka: Disputationes de Controversiis Christianae Fidei adversus hujus temporis Haereticos) [Lectures Concerning the Controversies of the Christian Faith Against the Heretics of This Time], Tom. 2, “Controversia Prima,” Book 2 (De Conciliorum Auctoritate)[“On Authority of the Councils”], Chapter 17, (1628 ed.) Vol. 1, pp. 266-translated]
In Latin: “Secundo probatur ratione, in Scripturis fundata; nam omnia nomina, quae in Scripturis tribuuntur Christo, unde constat eum esse supra Ecclesiam, eadem omnia tribuuntur Pontifici.” [http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/10800...0015573_21.pdf]
Those names would then include [but not limited to], King of Kings, Lord of Lords, , the Way, The Truth and the Life and even "I AM". You will notice in many official papal documents that the words "Us, We, Our" are captialized from the pope's hand, copying the Bible even from Genesis.
“But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, ...” [“The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII”, Encyclical Letter June 20, 1894; http://www.space.net.au/~nethow/Sede/encyclicals/Leo13/L13PRAEC.HTM; Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae - Papal Encyclicals
http://www.users.qwest.net/~slrorer/ReunionOfChristendom.htm]
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"vile person" is language of popery:
Isa_32:6 For the vile person will speak villany [speaks great blasphemous words], and his heart will work iniquity [man of sin], to practise hypocrisy [notice this, claims good, but does the opposite, a Judas, son of perdition, kisses with mouth, but heart is far from; just as the koine Greek of 666 speaks as I showed], and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail [all of which deal with his false gospel, for through 'peace' (his gospel, 'coming in peaceably') he will destroy many, and turning many away from Christ, to himself, in the place of Christ, or anti christos, or vicarius christi]
1Sa_16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.... It's simply a matter of considering the source without having to resort to the cited reference. -- Kinda like a Yugo salesman telling you what a great car they are. I don't need a "test drive" to know that a piece of junk is being hawked.
Bobby Jo
Might just be a V-10 under that hood, and won't know until you lift the hood and check.
Daniel 9:27 is a reference to Jesus Christ and the everlasting covenant (testament, see Gospels, last supper), see context and Hebrews 2:3; Romans 15:8, etc. (Daniel 11:22)
The "league" (a political agreement, or confederacy, an agreement between nation-states, and can sometimes mean covenant) of Daniel 11:23 is union of church and state, see Constantine, Revelation 17, etc., etc.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Check the jots and tittles. They're not the same. -- Why? Because they're DIFFERENT. Young, Keil, & Kliefoth all agree that the words used in Daniel Chapter 9 are exclusive to the rest of Scripture, -- they're in the UNUSUAL INCONCISE Masculine Gender text. ALL other Scripture uses the CONCISE Feminine Gender text.
Yep, just because you don't understand something, -- it can be IGNORED. Have you considered a RESPONSIBLE SOLUTION which the Scholars hadn't discovered because their studies weren't close enough to the time-of-the-end where they could have been assisted by a little hindsight?
You have a FALSE doctrine and are willing to disobey the angel's guidance, Scripture's guidance, and the Historical record.
Dan. 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.
Bobby Jo
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Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Davy
Well-Known Member
Well, The Bible does reveal it, to those who heed God's Word and not man.
The Book of Daniel is pointing to the final Antichrist for the end, and we know that because of New Testament teaching by our Lord Jesus and through His Apostles. That's what our Lord's Book of Revelation is for, to 'update' us on what He gave His Old Testament prophets to write down for us.
So if one lived back in the times of Daniel, and they read what he was given to write, they would not have Christ's updates in The New Testament Books. If one likes to place theirself in that position, then listen and heed those of the Preterist and Historicist schools, because they teach pretty much that all Bible prophecy is already fulfilled historically, except Christ's coming, but some of them even scrap that too, especially the Full Preterists who don't even believe in a literal 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus. This is why those like ReChoired stress historical lists and charts so much. It's to get you thinking that a lot of Bible prophecy is already fulfilled when it is not.
Davy
Well-Known Member
What if I just cite the koine Greek itself before getting to my "Hebrew mysticism"
•The very numerals themselves in Rev. 13:18 KJB, the “... Six hundred threescore and six.” have a [koine] Greek meaning for each numeral:
–666; chi-xi-stigma χξς:
–χ: the G22nd (agamos ἄγαμος unmarried, unwedded, single),•The meaning is “unmarried [single] father [man, calling himself ‘Abba’ (Father God)] who is ‘marked’ [as Cain] by claiming good works [claims good fruits], but all that he does is unlasting vanity [coming to a sudden end; as the fig tree with only pretensious leaves; Mat. 21:19; Mar. 11:13; or as Cain, killeth those like Abel; thinking he doeth God’s service]”. See also Mat. 6:5, 23:5 ; Jhn. 16:2 KJB, etc. The very position of popery, son of perdition, man of sin, Judas, Cain, Lucifer.
–ξ: G14th (agathoergeō ἀγαθοεργέω to work good, to do good, to do well, act rightly)
–ς: and an obsolete letter (4742 [stigma, mark, stick, prick] as a cross) of the Greek alphabet (intermediate between the G5th (abba ἀββα Abba = "father") and G6th (Habel Ἅβελ Abel = "vanity (that is: transitory)")), used as numbers” [Strong's Concordance].
You can find my study here - Sea of Glass (PowerPoint)
Just more junk. Those listening to you will be deceived. They'll know it eventually.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Yeah, you said Rome did...
From your post 123:
Applying the "little horn" to Rome covers the Daniel 8:9-13 verses:
Dan 8:9-14
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV
Rome did not fulfill that "transgression of desolation". Like the Jewish historian Josephus said, when the Roman army in 70 A.D. tried to seize the temple in Jerusalem, the Jews inside fought, a battle ensued with a fire, and the temple burned down before the Romans could get control of it (see the Jewish Wars by Flavius Josephus). That "transgression" is the same event Daniel was given to write in Daniel 11:31. The Dan.8 & Dan.11 Scriptures are linked regarding that event, as also in Dan.9:27 and in Dan.12.
From your post 104:
You have pagan Rome, AND Papal Rome being responsible for the Dan.11:31 event of ending the daily sacrifices and placing the abomination that makes desolate, which is the same event of Dan.8:11-13. Pagan Rome nor Papal Rome ever did that. Alexander didn't do it either.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
Sure...
You can't hide that movement by the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today. And that's one of your underlying purposes I feel just by what you preach. In the above you have pretty much confirmed your agenda, first by trying to claim only some nut would be behind such an idea, and secondly by trying to push the existence of such an idea onto the Jesuits of the Roman Church (back to your old hatred target). And thirdly, by claiming only a misguided person would pass such a rumor as the Jews' plan to build another temple and start up the old covenant worship again. You pretty much dug your own hole!
The Temple Mount Faithful | Working to Rebuild the Temple on the Temple Mount
Objectives of the Temple Mount Faithful
Those are orthodox Jews in Jerusalem. They've been at it for decades now.
Jewish Priests, Biblical Status Confirmed By DNA, Ready to Prepare for Third Temple
Davy
Well-Known Member
The "little horn" prophecy in Daniel 8 is pointing to the final Antichrist... that should be every Christian's position today on this event in the Book of Daniel.
Dan 8:9-14
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
That casting of some of the host and of the stars to the ground links to the "red dragon" of Revelation 12:3-4...
Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV
In Revelation 12:9 we are told the "dragon" is just another title for Satan. In the time of old is when Satan did that drawing of one third of the angels into rebellion with him.
For the end, our time, Satan with his angels are to be cast out of the heavenly down to this earth, in our dimension...
Rev 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, 'Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.'
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
KJV
Thus the Daniel 8 "little horn" is pointing directly to Satan per that Daniel 8:10 verse. Just so happens that our Lord Jesus pointed directly to Satan being cast down to earth out of the heavenly in the last days at the end of this world. He will be the final Antichrist.
Dan 8:9-14
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
That casting of some of the host and of the stars to the ground links to the "red dragon" of Revelation 12:3-4...
Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV
In Revelation 12:9 we are told the "dragon" is just another title for Satan. In the time of old is when Satan did that drawing of one third of the angels into rebellion with him.
For the end, our time, Satan with his angels are to be cast out of the heavenly down to this earth, in our dimension...
Rev 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, 'Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.'
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
KJV
Thus the Daniel 8 "little horn" is pointing directly to Satan per that Daniel 8:10 verse. Just so happens that our Lord Jesus pointed directly to Satan being cast down to earth out of the heavenly in the last days at the end of this world. He will be the final Antichrist.
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