There is no 'Spiritual Only' second coming, resurrection of the dead, nor reign on earth

[Gilligan]

The Bible's prophecy of the millennium of Christ begins only after the Lord's second coming, with the first resurrection of the dead, and is ruled by rod of iron over people and nations.

Cutting through all the arguments, it's simple: there is no spiritual only millennium, with a spiritual only second coming, a spiritual only resurrection, and spiritual only reign.

Even as faith alone without works is dead, a spiritual only millennium is vain imagination.

If only true Christian amils existed, that say there is no millennium of Christ on earth, then there wouldn't be any confusion. Some believe the Bible teaches a millennium of Christ and His saints on earth, and some don't.

All the real contention is not between mils and amils, but between mils and pseudo-amils. Honest Amils say there is no millennium on earth, but pseudo amils teach another millennium of their own making, like preaching another gospel.

The pseudo millennium of pseudo amils, is a spiritual only millennium, that does not have the Lord seen coming again as lightning, nor a resurrection of the dead saints, nor having any rule over peoples and nations of earth. All of that is supposed to happen at the end of their current spiritual millennium, not during. And the only rule over nations at that time, is beating everyone to death.

And since a thousand years is also spiritual only, then it really can't even be called a 'millennium', but simply a spiritual coming again, a spiritual resurrection of the saints, and spiritual reign on earth, that does not include unbelievers, until they are all beaten to death.

And so, in the end, it's nothing but a doctrinally taught spiritual millennium on earth, that only they know about and speak of.

I certainly don't. I know the Spirit of Christ is now upon all flesh, and in the hearts of His faithful believers, and His everlasting kingdom is now open to all that enter in by His faith. But, I have not seen Him come again to earth, nor am I resurrected from dead, and I certainly don't exercise rule over others, especially not whole nations with a rod of iron. And of course, I have no interest nor part in their Final Solution.

The pseudo millennium of spirituality only, is as grounded in truth as new age guru divines.

 

[Gilligan]

The resurrection of the dead:

In every verse of the Bible, the resurrection and resurrection of the dead is always with the physical body. There is no resurrection, nor resurrection of the dead, that is spiritual only while in the natural flesh.

Daniel 12 doesn't use the word resurrection, but does speak of the dead awake from the dust to be judged by God: it's dead bodies awaking again.

The word resurrection is not used in the Bible, until Jesus speaks of it. He is rebuking the Sadducees, that say there is no resurrection, and they were all speaking of the physical body from the dead. It is the same for those rebuked by Paul, that are speaking of dead bodies, when denying the resurrection of the dead.

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Paul has nothing to do with a spiritual only resurrection of the dead, but only that resurrection of the dead body to attain to.

Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

To say we now have any part in any resurrection, so that we were already resurrected in the past, is heresy that overthrows the faith.

Saying we are already resurrected is heresy. Being spiritually born again from the death of sins and trespasses, is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We are raised with Christ unto newness of life on earth. We are not now resurrected with Christ's immortal body, while on earth.

The Second Coming:

The same again with His second coming. Every verse prophesying the Lord's second coming to earth, is physical with His resurrected immortal body. He will be seen with physical eyes coming in the air the second time, rather than from the womb.

Any christ coming again to earth, unseen physically as lightning shining, is a false prophecy of a false christ. That includes a 'spiritual' coming again that is not physically in sight.

Saying Jesus is come again a second time to earth only spiritually first, and not physically, is akin to saying He came to earth only at first spiritually, and not physically.

Neither the resurrection of the dead, nor Jesus coming again to earth, is ever spoken of as spiritual only. There is no 'time separation' of Jesus ever coming to earth spiritually only, and not at the same time physically.

The only time separation of Jesus coming again and resurrection, is taught by pseudo-amils, that say their christ has already come again and their resurrection is already past.

Reigning on earth:

And finally, in the millennium of Christ, there is no spiritual only reign of and with Christ. The only millennial reign of Christ on earth in Scripture, is exercising authority over people and nations with rod of iron.

There is no spiritual power we are now given over other people. That is satanic occultism, where their followers believe they are given supernatural powers over the will, lives, and death of others.

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Our reigning with Christ at this time, is still prophecy of Scripture of what shall come to pass, not what has come to pass. Neither the Lord coming again, nor our resurrection, nor reigning with Him on earth, has come to pass. Our reigning with Him is after dying for Him, and being resurrected from the dead like Him.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

No Christian has been given occultist 'spiritual' power and reign over others on earth, nor has Jesus come a second time, and there is no 'spiritual' resurrection from the dead. The only likeness of His resurrection, is bodily. Jesus was never born again and 'spiritually resurrected' from His own death of sins and trespasses. The only resurrection of Christ is bodily, and the only part in His resurrection, is bodily.

Reigning in heaven:

There is where pseudo-millennialism dives into the ditch of delusion: they believe we are now spiritually resurrected from the dead, spiritually reigning on earth for a spiritual thousand years, and also 'spiritually' reigning with Christ in heaven.

There is no other kind of reigning over the spiritual kingdom of heaven, other than spiritually. They try to make a distinction of spiritual only on earth, but there is no such distinction in heaven.

These spiritual millennials are saying, that they are now in the resurrection and now in the throneroom of heaven, but not just as the angels in heaven, but greater than the angels with power of Christ to reign in heaven.

The only prophesied reigning of saints with Christ, is on this earth for a thousand years after the first resurrection of the dead, and on the new earth forever, after the old is passed away.

No angel nor man will ever reign and rule with God over heaven.

That is the delusional rebellion of Lucifer, and his promise to Adam and Eve:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[Gilligan]

Finally OSAS:

It is always interesting to find the true source and purpose of false teaching of the Bible, and with pseudo-millennials, it's OSAS. Even as OSAS is all about faith alone, so is pseudo-millennialism all about spirituality alone.

OSAS has the same teaching of being spiritually resurrected, and now sitting in heaven and reigning with Christ. And so, how can anyone already resurrected into heaven and reigning with Christ in heaven, not eternally continue doing so? It no longer matters to them, what their old bodies are currently doing way back their on earth.

Why not? Because 'spiritually-speaking' it's no more possible for them to be condemned for sinning like the rest of the world of people. Afterall, those unbelievers are not 'spiritually' in the throneroom of God, with power like God reigning over angels and men.

Spiritual only is the vain imaginary product of faith alone. It's nothing but airy doctrine of the mind.

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Every OSAS believer is not an amil, and every amil is not an OSAS believer, but I would bet every pseudo amil is an OSAS believer.

 

[covenantee]

In every verse of the Bible, the resurrection and resurrection of the dead is always with the physical body. There is no resurrection, nor resurrection of the dead, that is spiritual only while in the natural flesh.

John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Colossians 2
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Physical, or spiritual?

 

[Truth7t7]

The Bible's prophecy of the millennium of Christ begins only after the Lord's second coming, with the first resurrection of the dead, and is ruled by rod of iron over people and nations.

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Gilligan]

John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Colossians 2
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Physical, or spiritual?

Spiritual and physical salvation and justification in Christ Jesus.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It's just not the resurrection of the dead, the coming again of Jesus Christ, nor His millennium on earth, which are never spirit-only.

Like faith and works, they are never separated from one another to be faith and spirit alone. Spiritual salvation by faith alone without living blamelessly is false, as well as a millennial reign by spirit alone, without ruling over nations.

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The proof of Scripture is that the resurrection of the dead, is always of the dead body, and there is no 'spiritual-only' resurrection of the dead. Nor spirit-only coming of Jesus to the earth, neither the first nor the second time. A spirit-only coming of Christ to earth is an old heresy of antichrist. And so there cannot be any spirit-only millennium of His on earth today.

Since you haven't challenged the proof given in any way, then it remains proven.

Have a nice day.

 

[covenantee]

Spiritual and physical salvation and justification in Christ Jesus.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It's just not the resurrection of the dead, the coming again of Jesus Christ, nor His millennium on earth, which are never spirit-only.

Like faith and works, they are never separated from one another to be faith and spirit alone. Spiritual salvation by faith alone without living blamelessly is false, as well as a millennial reign by spirit alone, without ruling over nations.

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The proof of Scripture is that the resurrection of the dead, is always of the dead body, and there is no 'spiritual-only' resurrection of the dead. Nor spirit-only coming of Jesus to the earth, neither the first nor the second time. A spirit-only coming of Christ to earth is an old heresy of antichrist. And so there cannot be any spirit-only millennium of His on earth today.

Since you haven't challenged the proof given in any way, then it remains proven.

Have a nice day.

Thanks for your response.

Does the expression "dead in sins" describe a physical condition, or does it describe a spiritual condition?

 

[Gilligan]

Thanks for your response.

Does the expression "dead in sins" describe a physical condition, or does it describe a spiritual condition?

Spiritual only, unless we physically die in our sins, which means sinning unto the end without repentance. John calls it a sin unto death, or sinning unto death.

The main point is simple: there is no such thing as any Christian on earth doing anything only spiritually. If that were true, then we could be on earth in spirit only. And the heretics would be correct, that Jesus was spirit-only, and came not in the flesh.

Jesus has not come again to earth according to the Scriptures. Saying He has come again in spirit-only is not Bible and not true. Saying we are reigning in a spirit-only millennium is an imagination of our own that has no grounded in the truth nor on earth.

The Millennium of Christ, according to what the Bible says, is simple: He will come again to earth a second time. He will resurrect His church to meet Him in the air. He will rule all nations of the earth with a rod of iron, and will give power to His resurrected saints to do so with Him. It will be only for a thousand years, no less and no more.

Amills don't believe that at any time on earth, and pseudo-mills make one up as spirit-only at this time. And I say it is more than just harmless imagination, because it leads to having a superior sense of our own spirituality, that is inflated by the prince and power of the air, and can bring about a big fall in life.

And one certain, that the logical doctrinal result of this radical teaching, is a destructive manner of spirit, and disdainful attitude towards anyone that is not in their camp. John had it and was rebuked for it. And this includes an apparent hopeful zeal to join in on the slaughter at the end of their current millennium, which teaches it will go from spirit-only to physically cracking heads with rods of iron.

 

[Gilligan]

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth,

Yes, there will be. There is no spirit-only millennium on this earth. It doesn't exist, except in the minds of the super-spiritual.

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement,

No rod of iron to rule and grind them into powder?

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, there will be. There is no spirit-only millennium on this earth. It doesn't exist, except in the minds of the super-spiritual.


No rod of iron to rule and grind them into powder?

Your In Denial, Jesus Is Revealed In Firey Destruction In Vengence, Are The Scriptures Below A Lie?

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[covenantee]

The main point is simple: there is no such thing as any Christian on earth doing anything only spiritually.

Praying and singing with, and in, the spirit/Spirit are done only spiritually.

1 Corinthians 14:15
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Ephesians 6:18
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

 

[Gilligan]

Praying and singing with, and in, the spirit/Spirit are done only spiritually.

It's a fair challenge; however it's use to justify spirit-only, without the body, is not what the Scripture intends.

As with the the first and second coming, resurrection from the dead, millennium rule on earth, and confession unto salvation: singing in and with the spirit is with the mouth. And doing so with understanding, is to correct speaking in tongues rather than preaching with understandable words.

What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Singing is never talked of as inwardly only. The problem with spirit-only stuff, is that it has no practical application. They call it heavenly minded but no earthly good.

God does not create man with a physical body, that it not be used in worshipping Him.

Faith alone is dead, and spirit-only is useless.

Anyone can say whatever they want about what they are 'doing in the spirit', but both God and man demand to see it's evidence in the flesh.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[covenantee]

It's a fair challenge; however it's use to justify spirit-only, without the body, is not what the Scripture intends.

As with the the first and second coming, resurrection from the dead, millennium rule on earth, and confession unto salvation: singing in and with the spirit is with the mouth. And doing so with understanding, is to correct speaking in tongues rather than preaching with understandable words.

What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Singing is never talked of as inwardly only. The problem with spirit-only stuff, is that it has no practical application. They call it heavenly minded but no earthly good.

God does not create man with a physical body, that it not be used in worshipping Him.

Faith alone is dead, and spirit-only is useless.

Anyone can say whatever they want about what they are 'doing in the spirit', but both God and man demand to see it's evidence in the flesh.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Thanks for your response.

By "evidence in the flesh" I presume you mean works.

So if I pray that God will preserve and protect His Church around the world, it's "useless" because works are not involved?

What Scriptures support your claim that it's "useless"? The Scriptures that I cited certainly don't.

James wrote extensively about works. But there is nothing about works here, only prayers of faith:

James 5
13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

 

[Gilligan]

So if I pray that God will preserve and protect His Church around the world, it's "useless" because works are not involved?

Yes. Faith without works is dead. We can pray all we want, but if we're not doing something about it when the time comes, then it's useless. (James 2)

Especially when we're praying for 'the church', and even more especially 'around the world'.

What Scriptures support your claim that it's "useless"? The Scriptures that I cited certainly don't.

Faith without works is dead.

James wrote extensively about works. But there is nothing about works here, only prayers of faith:

James 5
13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

This is all about works resulting from prayer, not just praying alone.

Prayer alone is as spirit alone is as faith alone. Big whoop. Just because we feel good and think we've accomplished something by praying alone, doesn't mean we have.

All these things alone are nothing by feel good imagination, if there is no good work resulting. Nowhere does Jesus pray, and nothing happens. He prayed all night, and the working result was to name His apostles.

 

[covenantee]

Yes. Faith without works is dead. We can pray all we want, but if we're not doing something about it when the time comes, then it's useless. (James 2)

Especially when we're praying for 'the church', and even more especially 'around the world'.


Faith without works is dead.


This is all about works resulting from prayer, not just praying alone.

Prayer alone is as spirit alone is as faith alone. Big whoop. Just because we feel good and think we've accomplished something by praying alone, doesn't mean we have.

All these things alone are nothing by feel good imagination, if there is no good work resulting. Nowhere does Jesus pray, and nothing happens. He prayed all night, and the working result was to name His apostles.

Sorry. Your claims are Scripturally unsupportable.

 

[ewq1938]

Barnes:

As the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers - The ironic here is that of the vessel of a potter - a fragile vessel of clay - struck with a rod of iron and broken into fragments. That is, as applied to the nations, there would be no power to oppose His rule; the enemies of his government would be destroyed. Instead of remaining firm and compacted together, they would be broken like the clay vessel of a potter when struck with a rod of iron.

The notion of breaking a nation or kingdom up so it is powerless is nothing new in scripture:

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


The kingdom of God which Christ rules will break up the existing kingdoms of the nations leaving the people powerless to rebel. This is when the reign of the rod of iron over these nations takes place for a thousand years.

There is another use of a vessel being destroyed and it is not about killing people but breaking up an organization of people who rebel against God:

Isa 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
Isa 30:13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
Isa 30:14 And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

The metaphor of a vessel being broken is never about individuals being killed. God didn't kill every Jew. But their rebellion and sin against him caused the demise of their chosen status, even the covenant between them and God. Fast forward to the Millennium and again those who rebel against Christ shall have their wicked organizations broken up, leaving them powerless and unable to organize against Christ during this period of TIME of the reign/rule with a rod of iron. They live to be reigned over. When God allows satan to deceive them, then a brief and failed rebellion occurs and they are killed and judged and are no more forever.

Barnes:

As the breaking of the potter’s vessel - That is, as an earthen, fragile vessel, which is easily dashed to pieces. The image here is all drawn from the bursting forth, or the complete ruin of the swelling wall; but the sense is, that the Jewish republic would be entirely broken, scattered, demolished.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Barnes:

Psalms 2:9

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron - That is, evidently, thine enemies, for it cannot be supposed to be meant that he would sway such a scepter over his own people. The idea is that he would crush and subdue all his foes. He would have absolute power, and the grant which had been made to him would be accompanied with authority sufficient to hold it. That dominion which was to be conceded to him would be not only one of protection to his friends, but also of punishment on his enemies; and the statement here is made prominent because the former part of the psalm had respect to rebels, and the Messiah is here represented as being invested with power sufficient to punish and restrain them. The Vulgate renders this “thou shalt rule;” the Septuagint, “thou shalt feed - p??µa?e??? poimaneis; that is, thou shalt feed them as a shepherd does his flock; thou shalt exercise over them the care and protection of a shepherd.

 

[Gilligan]

So if I pray that God will preserve and protect His Church around the world, it's "useless" because works are not involved?

Obviously, since you say it has no effective results. The prayers were in vain, the same as speaking in tongues in assembly edifies no one else.

What Scriptures support your claim that it's "useless"?

You said so, by saying there are no works with it.

Without works simple means no effect and meaningless.

The Scriptures that I cited certainly don't.

James wrote extensively about works. But there is nothing about works here, only prayers of faith:

James 5
13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

These are prayers with works.

It's all the same. Faith, spirit, and prayer alone without works are dead, because they have no practical effect and results. It's what vain imagination is. We can imagine things all we want, but without effect, they are a vain waste of time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Bible's prophecy of the millennium of Christ begins only after the Lord's second coming, with the first resurrection of the dead, and is ruled by rod of iron over people and nations.

Cutting through all the arguments, it's simple: there is no spiritual only millennium, with a spiritual only second coming, a spiritual only resurrection, and spiritual only reign.

Amils do NOT believe that there is "a spiritual only second coming" or "a spiritual only resurrection". We believe in the future bodily second coming of Jesus Christ and that all of the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected at that time. So, stop misrepresenting amils. Are you doing it on purpose? If so, then why do you think that it's okay to lie?

Even as faith alone without works is dead, a spiritual only millennium is vain imagination.

If only true Christian amils existed, that say there is no millennium of Christ on earth, then there wouldn't be any confusion. Some believe the Bible teaches a millennium of Christ and His saints on earth, and some don't.

All the real contention is not between mils and amils, but between mils and pseudo-amils. Honest Amils say there is no millennium on earth, but pseudo amils teach another millennium of their own making, like preaching another gospel.

What in the world are you talking about here? What is a pseudo-amil and how do they differ from "Honest Amils"? I think you must actually be talking about full preterists here rather than Amils since what you are describing is what they believe, but not what Amils believe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Barnes:




The notion of breaking a nation or kingdom up so it is powerless is nothing new in scripture:

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


The kingdom of God which Christ rules will break up the existing kingdoms of the nations leaving the people powerless to rebel. This is when the reign of the rod of iron over these nations takes place for a thousand years.

There is another use of a vessel being destroyed and it is not about killing people but breaking up an organization of people who rebel against God:

Isa 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
Isa 30:13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
Isa 30:14 And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

The metaphor of a vessel being broken is never about individuals being killed. God didn't kill every Jew. But their rebellion and sin against him caused the demise of their chosen status, even the covenant between them and God. Fast forward to the Millennium and again those who rebel against Christ shall have their wicked organizations broken up, leaving them powerless and unable to organize against Christ during this period of TIME of the reign/rule with a rod of iron. They live to be reigned over. When God allows satan to deceive them, then a brief and failed rebellion occurs and they are killed and judged and are no more forever.

Barnes:






Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Barnes:

LOL. I suppose you think that the accompanying descriptions in Revelation 19:15 of Jesus smiting people and treading them in the winepress of God's wrath has nothing to do with destroying people as well? If not, and you agree that those are descriptions of Him destroying people, then that shows the context of what Him ruling over people with a rod of iron means.

The context of Revelation 19:11-21 is all about the destruction of Christ's enemies when He returns, but you think He will let them off the hook and give them another chance at salvation for a thousand years. Why should unbelievers even fear His return if what you believe was true? How would Revelation 6:12-17 make any sense in your view? Is that talking about people fearing for their lives because of the pending wrath of the Lamb, but then He holds back His wrath and lets them live? That's what your doctrine implies.

 

[Gilligan]

We believe in the future bodily second coming of Jesus Christ and that all of the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected at that time.

In order to beat everyone to death with clubs of iron. Yes, I know.

But you also teach the only time of millennium on earth is now, which is figurative and spirit-only.

Which is as meaningless as dead faith alone.

What in the world are you talking about here? What is a pseudo-amil and how do they differ from "Honest Amils"?

Honest amils don't make up a current figurative spirit-only reigning with Christ now in heaven and on earth.

They just say there is never any Millennium of Christ on earth, and leave it at that.

I think you must actually be talking about full preterists here rather than Amils since what you are describing is what they believe, but not what Amils believe.

Are you not reigning figuratively in heaven now?