Rapture 2020: the First Resurrection

[Timtofly]

I think you well know what I'm talking about. Judaism (like the Pharisees) believe in a resurrection too, or did you not know that? They don't have to know about The New Testament to be aware of that. One of their problems is they don't... know what is revealed per The New Testament. They don't read it, they don't believe on Jesus Christ. And their grasp of it is according to a fleshy resurrection, not what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15.

That idea simply is not written anywhere in God's Word. You should look at the Scripture that I provided instead of just passing over it. You might start with that John 5:28-29 example in relation to the 1st resurrection of Revelation 20.

If you seriously believe that then you have a different Bible than I have (I use the KJV mostly). Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 show the nations still existing after Christ's return. Even the end of Isaiah 19 shows the nations of Assyria and Egypt still existing each as one third with Israel in God's future Kingdom.

There's that fleshy thinking of the Jews again. When the 7th Vial is poured out into the 'air', that is when God's consuming fire will end this present flesh time. It's the Jews that wrongly believe our soul is part of our flesh body. It ain't. Our soul is attached to a spirit body that dwells inside our flesh body. When our flesh dies, it is simply cast off, goes back to the earthly elements where it came from. But our soul and spirit body continues to God. This was written early on by Solomon in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, and it is very simple.

So there will be NO re-populating the earth with flesh bodies. The resurrection is NOT to another flesh body, THAT is the Jewish thinking I was talking about, and it does not heed The New Testament where this is revealed.

You realize that you are the one teaching a Pharisees resurrection, correct?

Our spirit has always been separated and with God since Adam disobeyed God. That was spiritual death. Not that we do not have a spirit body (robe of white). It is always with God. Not even the souls currently in Paradise (under the alter) have a robe of white, Revelation 6. The church according to Paul will get their robes of white when the 6th seal is opened. That is when all humans know God, and Satan will be revealed as the one who decieved the whole world for 2500 years. The church will meet the Lamb in the air. Dead bodies are not resurrected then. All flesh of those souls in Christ, no longer exist. New bodies are given to the church in mid air.

As for the resurrection of the dead sinners since Adam, that will not happen until the end of the 1000 year millenium. John 5:28-29 does not happen in the same moment. It describes the whole of the Lord's Day. The actual Lord's Day is the 1000 year period. The Second Coming is the kick off celebration week. The week that Satan may be allowed to stop, so he can ruin life with 3.5 extra years.

The Pharisees taught that the sinful dead would be resurrected on the last day to get another "chance" at life. Reincarnation teaches that the soul gets multiple "chances" at life. Neither are correct interpretations of any Scripture. Any nations existing today will be wiped out in the next few years. Not one left. That a Gog and Megog are populated in the last 1000 years is the only named Nation. If there is a remnant of people left, they will not be for Satan. They will be like the city of Nineveh who converted in one day. They were not of Christ, but God will let them live to repopulate and make nations during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

The two options are a global revival and Satan does not get 3.5 years. Or, Satan gets 3.5 years and only those who refuse the mark 666 get beheaded. Those beheaded will be the first resurrection of the 1000 year reign of Christ. They will be the new nations.

So there are two prophecies. Not contradictory. They will happen depending on the free will choice of the church. Well, at least the church that accepts free will. It is not a battle of interpretations. It is a matter of the church willing to repent of wickedness, humble themselves, and seek God's face.

Revelation 14, 15, 16 covers the end if Satan gets 3.5 years. Revelation 17 and 18 covers the end, if there is a remnant of humans.

Revelation 19:20-21

20 But the beast was taken captive, and with it the false prophet who, in its presence, had done the miracles which he had used to deceive those who had received the mark of the beast and those who had worshipped his image. The beast and the false prophet were both thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
21 The rest were killed with the sword that goes out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

The rest, any one left following Satan, were killed. Moving on to chapter 20, no one is left, unless they repented or were beheaded. But this does not include those harvested before the week of the Second Coming. During the seals, trumpets, and thunders, the harvest is still for those in Christ who will receive their white robes (Paul's glorified bodies). This group of people are those restored in Christ to the state Adam was in before he disobeyed and let sin, death by sin, and spiritual death happen to all his descendants. There were also harvested people who died in their sins. From the stated dead in Seal 4 and Trumpet 6, Revelation 9:18
"It was these three plagues that killed a third of mankind — the fire, smoke and sulfur issuing from the horses’ mouths."

25% in seal 4. 33% in trumpet 6. Almost half the world is killed, and yes some remain. No one knows who will be left that does not follow Satan, but all who do will be killed. Nor do we really know, who are the church. If the apostate church already listens to the lies of Satan, are they part of the church or not? If my trying to warn people and get them to repent from their wickedness is not found in the Bible, why would Satan try to reveal who he is? Why would Satan want humans to accept God, and accept the Atonement provided for all by the Lamb? Why is Satan not teaching limited Atonement, that states Satan controls the majority of humanity? Who is teaching limited Atonement?

 

[Keraz]

This discussion/thread is the reason so many people like @FHII get fed up with forums and leave. No-one listens. No-one really looks seriously at another perspective to understand their perspective, but would rather just jump in with their "you don't understand the Bible' and differing viewpoint. It isn't a discussion when no-one cares about anyone else's view but their own.

Viewpoints and opinions are well and good, but scriptural support for them is what counts.
Even then, if it doesn't suit; scriptural proof is ignored or glossed over.
A case in point is below:

1 Cor 15:49-56
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Have the wicked on earth borne that "image of the earthy"? Yes. They also then will bear that "image of the heavenly". It will happen on the last day of this present world when Jesus returns and God's consuming fire ends man's time in the flesh, the vail being removed for all peoples, like Isaiah 25 shows, and where Paul got the 'death swallowed up in victory' idea.

WHEN Davy? Not only do you wrongly say Jesus will destroy the present earth at His Return, you falsely claim Eternity comes then as well. Revelation 20:11-15 says it is only after the Millennium that the Book of Life is opened and those worthy will receive Eternal life.
verse 54b says; Death is swallowed in Victory.... So when Pauls prophecy will be fulfilled will be AFTER the Millennium.
Proved by Revelation 21:4.....there will be an end to Death.......for the old order has passed away.

 

[Davy]

You realize that you are the one teaching a Pharisees resurrection, correct?

That certainly is a huge... false statement.

What I've been teaching about the resurrection and our makeup God created us with comes directly from God's Word. Just so happens much of the evidence for that is found in The New Testament Scripture which the unbelieving Jews do not believe in nor study. How is it that you do not know this??

Our spirit has always been separated and with God since Adam disobeyed God. That was spiritual death. Not that we do not have a spirit body (robe of white). It is always with God. Not even the souls currently in Paradise (under the alter) have a robe of white, Revelation 6. The church according to Paul will get their robes of white when the 6th seal is opened. That is when all humans know God, and Satan will be revealed as the one who decieved the whole world for 2500 years. The church will meet the Lamb in the air. Dead bodies are not resurrected then. All flesh of those souls in Christ, no longer exist. New bodies are given to the church in mid air.

In Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, we are shown that if the "silver cord" is severed, then our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, but our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. The Jews think that 'spirit' idea there means just an animating life that all living things have and nothing more. But The New Testament tells us more, as in Matthew 10:28 Jesus said to not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. That means that 'spirit' of Eccl.12 that goes back to God retains one's soul personality, or individual. Because of the witness Jesus also gave in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man in Paradise, and also Jesus' witness to the malefactor crucified with Him being in Paradise with Him after dying on their cross, and even with the souls under the altar in the heavenly of the 5th Seal, these New Testament Scriptures reveals life of one's spirit with soul continues after flesh death (and there are several other NT witnesses than just these).

So for today, before Jesus returns, those who go through flesh death, have their spirit with soul taken either to one side in Paradise where Abraham is, or to the other side of the great gulf fixed to the abode of the wicked called hell (hades) where the rich man of Luke 16 was taken to.

As for the resurrection of the dead sinners since Adam, that will not happen until the end of the 1000 year millenium. John 5:28-29 does not happen in the same moment. It describes the whole of the Lord's Day. The actual Lord's Day is the 1000 year period. The Second Coming is the kick off celebration week. The week that Satan may be allowed to stop, so he can ruin life with 3.5 extra years.

You are clearly wrong about the timing of John 5:28-29. BOTH resurrection types are being described as happening there at the sound of Christ's voice, which is a time marker for the day of His 2nd coming per 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15. All the dead will be raised on the day of His coming and will make up the nations of Rev.20:8-9 which Satan will lead upon the "camp of the saints" after the thousand years.

The idea that only those in Christ Jesus are resurrected on the day of His 2nd coming is foolishness, and goes against His Word.

The below verses are in Rev.22, but they are Millennium timing. Reason that is certain is because the 'wicked' are still there outside the gates of the city, not destroyed yet per the end of Rev.20.

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

Because those wicked are outside the gates of the beloved city, it means a separation on earth during Christ's Millennium reign between His elect Church and the wicked of the nations. This is show to greater extent at the end of Zechariah 14 when it says in that time they will be required to go up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles. It then says whichever families of the earth refuse to come up to worship will have no rains on their lands, and it specifically mentions the nation of Egypt.

I really get tired of showing those who don't appear to care what The New Testament Scriptures teach as written, but having to go back into The Old Testament Books also (with the many times I have referred to Zechariah 14 about Christ's future Millennial reign), that disregard of those Scriptures really reveals an agenda of men, and not seriousness in God's written Word.

 

[Davy]

...

WHEN Davy? Not only do you wrongly say Jesus will destroy the present earth at His Return, you falsely claim Eternity comes then as well. Revelation 20:11-15 says it is only after the Millennium that the Book of Life is opened and those worthy will receive Eternal life.
verse 54b says; Death is swallowed in Victory.... So when Pauls prophecy will be fulfilled will be AFTER the Millennium.
Proved by Revelation 21:4.....there will be an end to Death.......for the old order has passed away.

What junk are you putting out now?

I never said Eternity comes on the day of Christ's coming. That Eternity idea (to me) is the new heavens and a new earth time, which only will occur after... Christ's future Millennial reign. You will not find me saying anything different in any of my posts. So you just wrongly assumed that.

How many times have I tried to get you to look at the Isaiah 25:5-9 Scripture about the last day of this world when God will remove the "vail that is spread over all nations", revealing the heavenly on earth, because that... is where Paul was pulling the 'death swallowed up in victory' clause?

Isa 25:6-8
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
KJV

And here I go again, having to quote Zechariah 14 again and again!

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

Just the fact... that some of the nations will refuse to come up to Jerusalem year to year to worship The King shows spiritual rebellion will still exist in Christ's future Millennium reign. Those unsaved of the nations will have bodies of incorruption, but their SOUL WILL STILL BE IN A LIABLE TO DIE condition at the "second death", just like I showed you in 1 Cor.15 and Rev.20.

 

[Keraz]

It's the same as with today's time, between those walking in the flesh being either alive 'inside' through Christ and The Holy Spirit, or spiritually dead inside being without Christ and The Holy Spirit. The only difference between now and that future time is none of us will have flesh bodies in that time. We all will be in spiritual bodies, but not all will be in Christ's Salvation.

Thus the "dead" ARE ALL raised too on the day of Christ's return, as written in John 5:28-29. That is who those "nations" of Rev.20 represent, i.e, the unsaved dwelling outside the beloved city. They will be required from year to year to go up to Jerusalem to worship The LORD of hosts and keep the feast of tabernacles. Those nations which don't there will be no rain upon their lands. This was all given at the end of Zechariah 14 about the time of Christ's future reign over all nations right after His return to earth.

THIS is what I refuted.
Immortality is NOT given to anybody when Jesus Returns. That awaits the GWT Judgment AFTER the Millennium.

The raised 'dead' only put on a body of incorruption. Their souls will still be in a liable to die state ("this mortal" = Greek thnetos which means 'liable to die' per Strong's no.2349).

Now you have changed your mind, although you still seem very confused about it! How can a 'body of incorruption' still be liable to die? Dead but preserved; embalmed maybe?

BTW; I'm glad we both see the descendants of Jacob in the Christian peoples. This truth is very hard to comprehend for those who have been taught that the Jews are all of Israel. Some fools almost idolize Jewish Israel.

 

[Timtofly]

That certainly is a huge... false statement.

What I've been teaching about the resurrection and our makeup God created us with comes directly from God's Word. Just so happens much of the evidence for that is found in The New Testament Scripture which the unbelieving Jews do not believe in nor study. How is it that you do not know this??



In Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, we are shown that if the "silver cord" is severed, then our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, but our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. The Jews think that 'spirit' idea there means just an animating life that all living things have and nothing more. But The New Testament tells us more, as in Matthew 10:28 Jesus said to not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. That means that 'spirit' of Eccl.12 that goes back to God retains one's soul personality, or individual. Because of the witness Jesus also gave in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man in Paradise, and also Jesus' witness to the malefactor crucified with Him being in Paradise with Him after dying on their cross, and even with the souls under the altar in the heavenly of the 5th Seal, these New Testament Scriptures reveals life of one's spirit with soul continues after flesh death (and there are several other NT witnesses than just these).

So for today, before Jesus returns, those who go through flesh death, have their spirit with soul taken either to one side in Paradise where Abraham is, or to the other side of the great gulf fixed to the abode of the wicked called hell (hades) where the rich man of Luke 16 was taken to.



You are clearly wrong about the timing of John 5:28-29. BOTH resurrection types are being described as happening there at the sound of Christ's voice, which is a time marker for the day of His 2nd coming per 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15. All the dead will be raised on the day of His coming and will make up the nations of Rev.20:8-9 which Satan will lead upon the "camp of the saints" after the thousand years.

The idea that only those in Christ Jesus are resurrected on the day of His 2nd coming is foolishness, and goes against His Word.

The below verses are in Rev.22, but they are Millennium timing. Reason that is certain is because the 'wicked' are still there outside the gates of the city, not destroyed yet per the end of Rev.20.

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

Because those wicked are outside the gates of the beloved city, it means a separation on earth during Christ's Millennium reign between His elect Church and the wicked of the nations. This is show to greater extent at the end of Zechariah 14 when it says in that time they will be required to go up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles. It then says whichever families of the earth refuse to come up to worship will have no rains on their lands, and it specifically mentions the nation of Egypt.

I really get tired of showing those who don't appear to care what The New Testament Scriptures teach as written, but having to go back into The Old Testament Books also (with the many times I have referred to Zechariah 14 about Christ's future Millennial reign), that disregard of those Scriptures really reveals an agenda of men, and not seriousness in God's written Word.

The point is that this Day is 1000 years long, one resurrection is in the morning, one is in the evening. Same Day, same voice, just 1000 years of separation.

The spirit of man has been separated from mankind, with God, since Adam disobeyed. That is spiritual death. No more our spirit on earth with us, but it is with God. It reports to God constantly on what we do. It is our witness in heaven, but we cannot communicate with it. That is occult and forbidden by God. Now, it may be understood as our subconsciousness, but who knows? Ecclesiastes is mysticism. Yes, God allowed Solomon's wisdom to be a book in the Bible.

Paradise was never under the earth. Does it move around like the New Jerusalem? Makes more sense, than condemning Paradise to sheol. Abraham's bosom was freed at the time Jesus said, "It is finished." Even Paul taught that. There is no longer a place where saints have to wait in sheol. David prophecied that he and Jesus would not be left in sheol as a corrupted state. Peter knew about David and quoted the prophecy. Because Peter said that is what Jesus did on the third day.

Jesus did rise. So did all the OT Saints. Not one was left behind. They became the firstfruits of the church. Not only is the NT grafted into the Tree, the whole tree is the church. The OT saints were all planted as seeds in the ground for 4000 years. They all received a new body and their souls are under the alter. They have been there for 1990 years. Whenever a NT believer dies, new life happens to each one individually. Planted as a seed, and immediately a new body, and the soul is under the alter. The thief was the first NT believer to die and enter Paradise. Jesus said TODAY. Paul says, "to be absent from this body, is to be present with the Lord", TODAY. There is no waiting, when it comes to death now. Abel had to wait the longest, unless he was already there, because his body was in the Garden and never left. Where did Enoch go? Did Enoch go up, and take the Garden with him, and in heaven it was called Paradise? Could Abel and Enoch be the only two who could stay in Paradise while all others had to wait? What about Moses, Satan did not get his body in death. Is Moses' body in Paradise? Did Enoch return as Elijah, because of the prophecy that Elijah must come from Heaven? Jesus claimed Elijah had already come, and Elijah went back to Paradise.

The death of Abel did not force Paradise into sheol any more than Enoch forced Paradise into heaven, but we have all these accounts in the Bible for a reason. There is more evidence of Paradise being in heaven and no one but perhaps 3 could be in Paradise because of sin. Adam nor his fallen descendants could enter. Even Cain had to leave God's presence. It was not until Abraham and his faith, that even allowed a separation in sheol, for those in Faith to wait, until the Atonement on the Cross was placed on the alter, 3.5 days after Jesus said, "It is finished." Then all souls were under the alter, in Paradise. Paradise now being the Temple of God, Revelation 7.

 

[Davy]

THIS is what I refuted.
Immortality is NOT given to anybody when Jesus Returns. That awaits the GWT Judgment AFTER the Millennium.

You only refuted it in your own mind by your disbelief of God's Word about it.

Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 revealed it regarding the "last trump" event. He said we shall not all 'sleep', but we shall ALL be 'changed'.

Paul taught there the resurrection body type is a "spiritual body", what he also called the "image of the heavenly". It is NOT a flesh type body. And it is ONLY made immortal for those who believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ at His 2nd coming.

But for the wicked, their spiritual body still with a 'mortal soul' will still be in a 'liable to die' condition, subject to the "second death".

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

NT:2349
thnetos (thnay-tos'); from NT:2348; liable to die:

KJV - mortal (-ity).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The above "this mortal" idea is not about the flesh body. It's about one's soul condition. It is spiritually dead without Christ, even while still alive. Jesus showed this with the analogy of the unbelieving scribes and Pharisees being like whited tombs that look nice on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones (Matthew 23:27).

Now our Lord Jesus showed in John 5:28-29 there will also be a "resurrection of damnation" regarding the wicked dead, just as Apostle Paul had that same hope per Acts 24:15. Did Paul have that hope for the resurrection of the unjust only so they could face Christ and then be destroyed? No, Paul obviously had hope that at least some of them might be saved.

This is what Christ's future Millennium reign is for. It is that at least some of the spiritually dead who knew not Christ and The Gospel might be converted and be saved.

When God's consuming fire event of 2 Peter 3:10 happens on the last day of this world, burning man's works off this earth, that event is going to usher all souls into Christ's future Millennial reign with His elect. The Revelation 22:14-15 will then happen, which is also hinted at in Ezekiel 44 about the dead (spiritually dead souls, not literally dead in the ground).

That is what you are not understanding about the next world when Jesus returns to reign. NO ONE will be in flesh bodies anymore. ALL will be in resurrection bodies, either of the "resurrection of life" or the "resurrection of damnation" which is a raising of the wicked from the dead. Yet the unsaved will still have mortal souls in a liable to die condition at the "second death".

Now you have changed your mind, although you still seem very confused about it! How can a 'body of incorruption' still be liable to die? Dead but preserved; embalmed maybe?

No, I haven't changed my mind. Why are you constantly making false accusations? I have been teaching this about the resurrection and day of Christ's 2nd coming all along. You simply have not been listening.

 

[Davy]

The point is that this Day is 1000 years long, one resurrection is in the morning, one is in the evening. Same Day, same voice, just 1000 years of separation.

That's how many interpret Rev.20, but that's not taking in account the rest of God's Word. Do you isolate what you studied in previous parts of The Bible, forgetting it when you come to a new Bible Book or Chapter study? Not supposed to.

If it weren't for the Isaiah 25:5-9 and John 5:28-29 Scripture (and other NT hints), then that view above would be correct.

The error in that view is not understanding what kind of time Christ's future thousand years reign will be. It is also error to not understand what the "second death" is.

The reason why the "dead" will stand in judgment at the end of the 1,000 with the books being opened is NOT just so those can perish at the second death. It is to discover those who converted to Christ Jesus DURING the 1,000 years. The implied 2nd resurrection is not one to destruction, it is another one unto eternal Life in Christ Jesus like the 1st resurrection.

 

[Timtofly]

You only refuted it in your own mind by your disbelief of God's Word about it.

Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 revealed it regarding the "last trump" event. He said we shall not all 'sleep', but we shall ALL be 'changed'.

Paul taught there the resurrection body type is a "spiritual body", what he also called the "image of the heavenly". It is NOT a flesh type body. And it is ONLY made immortal for those who believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ at His 2nd coming.

But for the wicked, their spiritual body still with a 'mortal soul' will still be in a 'liable to die' condition, subject to the "second death".

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

NT:2349
thnetos (thnay-tos'); from NT:2348; liable to die:

KJV - mortal (-ity).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The above "this mortal" idea is not about the flesh body. It's about one's soul condition. It is spiritually dead without Christ, even while still alive. Jesus showed this with the analogy of the unbelieving scribes and Pharisees being like whited tombs that look nice on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones (Matthew 23:27).

Now our Lord Jesus showed in John 5:28-29 there will also be a "resurrection of damnation" regarding the wicked dead, just as Apostle Paul had that same hope per Acts 24:15. Did Paul have that hope for the resurrection of the unjust only so they could face Christ and then be destroyed? No, Paul obviously had hope that at least some of them might be saved.

This is what Christ's future Millennium reign is for. It is that at least some of the spiritually dead who knew not Christ and The Gospel might be converted and be saved.

When God's consuming fire event of 2 Peter 3:10 happens on the last day of this world, burning man's works off this earth, that event is going to usher all souls into Christ's future Millennial reign with His elect. The Revelation 22:14-15 will then happen, which is also hinted at in Ezekiel 44 about the dead (spiritually dead souls, not literally dead in the ground).

That is what you are not understanding about the next world when Jesus returns to reign. NO ONE will be in flesh bodies anymore. ALL will be in resurrection bodies, either of the "resurrection of life" or the "resurrection of damnation" which is a raising of the wicked from the dead. Yet the unsaved will still have mortal souls in a liable to die condition at the "second death".




No, I haven't changed my mind. Why are you constantly making false accusations? I have been teaching this about the resurrection and day of Christ's 2nd coming all along. You simply have not been listening.

This borders on reincarnation. It is giving a fallen soul another chance in a spiritual body. This is not about living on earth. It is the resurrection at the end of the day, when those resurrected are cast into the lake of fire. Revelation says only those who refused to have the mark, who were beheaded can live again during the 1000 years. They are resurrected at the first resurrection, the morning of the same Lord's Day. They will not die, but their children will still be fallen Adam's descendants. Their own descendants will be turned by Satan at the end of the Lord's Day. They will populate the earth for 1000 years. God does not use reincarnation. That does not exist, but a false teaching of humans.

 

[Davy]

The spirit of man has been separated from mankind, with God, since Adam disobeyed. That is spiritual death. No more our spirit on earth with us, but it is with God. It reports to God constantly on what we do. It is our witness in heaven, but we cannot communicate with it. That is occult and forbidden by God. Now, it may be understood as our subconsciousness, but who knows? Ecclesiastes is mysticism. Yes, God allowed Solomon's wisdom to be a book in the Bible.

Your joking, right? You just throw away the Book of Ecclesiastes just because Solomon was given to write it??? No wonder you are deceived about many things. Makes me wonder what other Bible Books you just throw away and call mysticism (no, I really don't want to know that).

Obviously, the "silver cord" idea in Eccl.12:5-7 that gets severed at flesh death, showing that our spirit and soul goes back to God, but our flesh body goes back to the ground where it came from, is something you totally reject, just to keep to Jewish traditions of men.

 

[Timtofly]

That's how many interpret Rev.20, but that's not taking in account the rest of God's Word. Do you isolate what you studied in previous parts of The Bible, forgetting it when you come to a new Bible Book or Chapter study? Not supposed to.

If it weren't for the Isaiah 25:5-9 and John 5:28-29 Scripture (and other NT hints), then that view above would be correct.

The error in that view is not understanding what kind of time Christ's future thousand years reign will be. It is also error to not understand what the "second death" is.

The reason why the "dead" will stand in judgment at the end of the 1,000 with the books being opened is NOT just so those can perish at the second death. It is to discover those who converted to Christ Jesus DURING the 1,000 years. The implied 2nd resurrection is not one to destruction, it is another one unto eternal Life in Christ Jesus like the 1st resurrection.

Except that in Christ, no one dies. You teach against your own verses, by claiming those in Christ can actually die in the 1000 year reign of Christ. The first resurrection came first, because it was in the morning. It had to happen or there would be no one born at all during the 1000 years. Those who are beheaded are resurrected in Christ, but no glorified bodies. They live and give birth to fallen humans. They will not die, but will not get glorified bodies until the end of the 1000 years. They live on earth and cannot go to Paradise, just like us today who are in Christ. We have children who are fallen descendants of Adam. They have to decide for themselves to be in Christ. But being in Christ now, we still have bodies of flesh. So the same with those in Revelations first resurrection. They are still just like us. They are not reincarnated. Just brought back to life, with their heads back on their own bodies.

 

[Davy]

Paradise was never under the earth. Does it move around like the New Jerusalem? Makes more sense, than condemning Paradise to sheol. Abraham's bosom was freed at the time Jesus said, "It is finished." Even Paul taught that. There is no longer a place where saints have to wait in sheol. David prophecied that he and Jesus would not be left in sheol as a corrupted state. Peter knew about David and quoted the prophecy. Because Peter said that is what Jesus did on the third day.

I never said Paradise was in the earth nor under it. You need to quit trying to put words into my mouth.

Paradise is in the heavenly dimension, a different dimension of existence written of in God's Word. Apostle Paul mentioned one that was caught up to it in 2 Cor.12, showing that one did not die; most likely that was Paul speaking of himself.

Abraham's bosom in Luke 16 was to represent only one side of Paradise in the heavenly dimension. We're shown that there.

The prophecy of the soul not seeing corruption that David spoke of was about Jesus' resurrection and Christ's preaching The Gospel to the spirits in prison, leading those who believed out of that prison house (isaiah 47:2; 1 Peter 3 & 4).

Ps 16:10
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
KJV

Per the 5th Seal of Rev.6, the souls under the altar, that represents the saved in Paradise. The great gulf fixed border in Paradise still exists (Luke 16). Hell is on the other side of it. So to Paradise is where those in Christ still go, just not on the side where hell is. There are no dead saints at present that have received their rewards just yet. They are not yet standing next to God's throne. The dead saints do not receive that without those us who are still alive on earth. The elders standing next to God's throne shown in Revelation 4 & 5 are future prophetic views for Christ's Millennium and thereafter.

 

[Davy]

Jesus did rise. So did all the OT Saints. Not one was left behind. They became the firstfruits of the church. Not only is the NT grafted into the Tree, the whole tree is the church. The OT saints were all planted as seeds in the ground for 4000 years. They all received a new body and their souls are under the alter. They have been there for 1990 years. Whenever a NT believer dies, new life happens to each one individually. Planted as a seed, and immediately a new body, and the soul is under the alter. The thief was the first NT believer to die and enter Paradise. Jesus said TODAY. Paul says, "to be absent from this body, is to be present with the Lord", TODAY. There is no waiting, when it comes to death now. Abel had to wait the longest, unless he was already there, because his body was in the Garden and never left. Where did Enoch go? Did Enoch go up, and take the Garden with him, and in heaven it was called Paradise? Could Abel and Enoch be the only two who could stay in Paradise while all others had to wait? What about Moses, Satan did not get his body in death. Is Moses' body in Paradise? Did Enoch return as Elijah, because of the prophecy that Elijah must come from Heaven? Jesus claimed Elijah had already come, and Elijah went back to Paradise.

I never said our Lord Jesus did not rise from the dead. Nor have ever I said that the saints that died weren't raised. Nor have I said the Old Testament saints weren't saved. So I don't know why you addressed all that stuff to me; obviously you were thinking of someone else.

The souls being under... the altar represents the fact that no saint that died is standing next to God's throne at present. There is still a separation until after Christ's thousand years reign. Paradise will never go away, for it is also about The Father's Abode.

God's Paradise, which contains His River of the waters of Life, was once upon the earth we know, as written in Genesis 2. HE is Who removed it from this earth to the heavenly dimension where it now is. That is what the Cherubims guarding the way to the tree of life represents.

Elijah went back to Paradise?? Don't know where you got that idea. All we know about Elijah after he was taken up by God is that some of the Apostles saw him and Moses at the mount of transfiguration speaking with Jesus.

 

[Timtofly]

Your joking, right? You just throw away the Book of Ecclesiastes just because Solomon was given to write it??? No wonder you are deceived about many things. Makes me wonder what other Bible Books you just throw away and call mysticism (no, I really don't want to know that).

Obviously, the "silver cord" idea in Eccl.12:5-7 that gets severed at flesh death, showing that our spirit and soul goes back to God, but our flesh body goes back to the ground where it came from, is something you totally reject, just to keep to Jewish traditions of men.

I do not reject Ecclesiastes. It is your interpretation that says our spirit is with us in this body. Clearly, Adam lost his spirit, and so did all his descendants. That is spiritual death. If your interpretation were true, we would all be walking around as glowing bright lights, and we would not need the sun in the sky. There would also be no demonic activity, because any humans not looking like a bright light would still be connected to their own demon. Ecclesiastes paints a picture, but it is not part of the physical. As I stated we have a connection to our subconscious, but who controls what, should be easily understood. I do not accept original thoughts by flesh alone. All thoughts came from God or Satan inverting them. How does Satan get a thought to us, if not through our spirit. A reprobate mind can no longer be changed. The chord broken. Thus a demon free to roam the earth, looking for a soul to attach to. It is just, that we are not supposed to focus and make the occult world part of our thought processes.

 

[Davy]

The death of Abel did not force Paradise into sheol any more than Enoch forced Paradise into heaven, but we have all these accounts in the Bible for a reason. There is more evidence of Paradise being in heaven and no one but perhaps 3 could be in Paradise because of sin. Adam nor his fallen descendants could enter. Even Cain had to leave God's presence. It was not until Abraham and his faith, that even allowed a separation in sheol, for those in Faith to wait, until the Atonement on the Cross was placed on the alter, 3.5 days after Jesus said, "It is finished." Then all souls were under the alter, in Paradise. Paradise now being the Temple of God, Revelation 7.

Paradise didn't go anywhere but to the heavenly dimension. In the Septuagint Greek Old Testament, the word for Eden is translated as 'paradise'. So Paradise is about God's Eden.

Luke 23:42-43
42 And he said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom."
43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise."
KJV

What Jesus showed about Paradise in Luke 16 is still the way it is today. Hades is located on one side of it. Depending on one's belief, those who have died are taken to one side or the other.

 

[Timtofly]

I never said Paradise was in the earth nor under it. You need to quit trying to put words into my mouth.

Paradise is in the heavenly dimension, a different dimension of existence written of in God's Word. Apostle Paul mentioned one that was caught up to it in 2 Cor.12, showing that one did not die; most likely that was Paul speaking of himself.

Abraham's bosom in Luke 16 was to represent only one side of Paradise in the heavenly dimension. We're shown that there.

The prophecy of the soul not seeing corruption that David spoke of was about Jesus' resurrection and Christ's preaching The Gospel to the spirits in prison, leading those who believed out of that prison house (isaiah 47:2; 1 Peter 3 & 4).

Ps 16:10
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
KJV

Per the 5th Seal of Rev.6, the souls under the altar, that represents the saved in Paradise. The great gulf fixed border in Paradise still exists (Luke 16). Hell is on the other side of it. So to Paradise is where those in Christ still go, just not on the side where hell is. There are no dead saints at present that have received their rewards just yet. They are not yet standing next to God's throne. The dead saints do not receive that without those us who are still alive on earth. The elders standing next to God's throne shown in Revelation 4 & 5 are future prophetic views for Christ's Millennium and thereafter.

Abraham's bosom was in sheol, not Paradise. That is why a resurrection could not happen until Jesus Christ became the Lamb on the cross. Abraham's bosom ceased to exist. The OT Saints had to wait 3.5 days just like Jesus Christ. Then they all ascended to Paradise. Why did Jesus go to sheol and free the captives there, if Abraham's bosom was not in sheol. You have to change a lot of Scripture to say Abraham's bosom was Paradise in heaven and the great expansion was earth in between heaven above and what is under the earth. Revelation 9:1-2 states the abyss was opened in the earth.

"The fifth angel sounded his shofar; and I saw a star that had fallen out of heaven onto the earth, and he was given the key to the shaft leading down to the Abyss.
2 He opened the shaft of the Abyss, and there went up smoke from the shaft like the smoke of a huge furnace; the sun was darkened, and the sky too, by the smoke from the shaft."

The smoke rose into heaven, not the abyss itself, was rising into heaven.

The Atonement on the Cross was the only way for Adam and his descendants to return to Paradise the Garden of Eden. Abraham's bosom was on one side of the abyss in the earth and hell was on the other. But all three are in the bottom of earth.

 

[Davy]

I do not reject Ecclesiastes. It is your interpretation that says our spirit is with us in this body. Clearly, Adam lost his spirit, and so did all his descendants. That is spiritual death.

That is not what Adam's sin did. He didn't lose his spirit. You've been listening too much to man's philosophy.

What's Adam's sin did was to assign... one's spirit and soul to perish, needing Christ's Salvation. He didn't lose... his spirit/soul. And furthermore, Jesus showed in Matthew 10:28 that the 'soul' continues on after flesh death. So if you're going to try and pull the false Jewish tradition that a soul can only manifest with a flesh body, then you will continue to go around in circles like you're doing.

If your interpretation were true, we would all be walking around as glowing bright lights, and we would not need the sun in the sky. There would also be no demonic activity, because any humans not looking like a bright light would still be connected to their own demon. Ecclesiastes paints a picture, but it is not part of the physical. As I stated we have a connection to our subconscious, but who controls what, should be easily understood. I do not accept original thoughts by flesh alone. All thoughts came from God or Satan inverting them. How does Satan get a thought to us, if not through our spirit. A reprobate mind can no longer be changed. The chord broken. Thus a demon free to roam the earth, looking for a soul to attach to. It is just, that we are not supposed to focus and make the occult world part of our thought processes.

That's crazy, showing you are NOT ABLE to understand the simplicity of God's Word about how God created our soul with spirit in a flesh body. You are obviously stuck on old Jewish traditions of men about the soul with spirit.

Eccl.12:5-7 paints an ACCURATE PICTURE of the operation between spirit and flesh, just as Jesus and Apostle Paul also did in Matthew 10:28, 1 Corinthians 15, and other New Testament Scriptures. The New Testament reveals that the soul cannot... I repeat, cannot... be separated from one's spirit. But the soul with spirit CAN be separated from one's flesh body. That is what The New Testament shows.

But those stuck in the Old Testament only, like the unbelieving Jews, those only believe the soul is made manifest with a flesh body. That thinking is wrong, for it would mean the person that dies no longer exists, period. So that idea is a doctrine of devils in reality. The Old Testament just doesn't go into the detail that the New Testament does about it, EXCEPT for that Eccl.12:5-7 Scripture, which is accurate, but still doesn't explain that one's soul is connected to that 'spirit' when it goes back to God at flesh death.

 

[Davy]

Abraham's bosom was in sheol, not Paradise.

Your obviously confused. Sheol is just a word for where the dead go, sometimes used for hell and sometimes just for the idea of the grave. In the majority of OT cases it is used for the idea of the grave.

Acts 2:31
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in hell, neither His flesh did see corruption.
KJV

"His soul was not left in hell" = about Hades, the abode of the wicked. The soul is not the flesh.

"neither His flesh did see corruption" = the idea of flesh in the grave (sheol). Jesus' flesh didn't see that, it was transfigured.

If you based a whole philosophy on that, then you need to dump it, because you obviously don't know what God's Paradise is about.

 

[Timtofly]

Per the 5th Seal of Rev.6, the souls under the altar, that represents the saved in Paradise. The great gulf fixed border in Paradise still exists (Luke 16). Hell is on the other side of it. So to Paradise is where those in Christ still go, just not on the side where hell is.

Hell is not in Heaven. Paradise was never in the earth. Hell was never in Heaven.

Luke 16 is only about Abraham's bosom being in sheol. After the Cross, it no longer existed, because a dead body is no longer a corrupted body. After the Cross, a dead body immediately puts on incorruption. Only after the 5th seal will the incorruptible body, and soul put on immortality, a glorified body. By all technicalities, the soul was always God in us. Our body became flesh, bound to this earth, the spirit remained with God bound to heaven and spiritual reality. The 6th seal is the glorious event for us where the spiritual and physical become one reality. For those on earth it is the realization of coming judgment and wrath.

 

[Davy]

This borders on reincarnation.

No it doesn't. You are using falseness to try and protect your false Jewish traditions of men!

Reincarnation is actually... what many deceived Jews believe in! The idea of a fleshy resurrection is what most of them believe, which is the idea of reincarnation, being born into a NEW flesh body!

That is NOT what I have been proclaiming directly from God's written Word at all, and you well know it, you deceiver!