Rapture 2023? Don’t be Left Behind on the Late Great Planet Earth (or Worse)

[Timtofly]

I don't agree with you on much, but I do agree with this. I mean, the pre-trib rapture theory is so obviously false that even you can recognize that.

Yes, the signs Jesus gave were related to the end of the age when Jesus returns, not to a supposed rapture occurring 7 years before the end of the age. They asked Him what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age, not what will be the sign that the pre-trib rapture is about to occur 7 years before your coming at the end of the age.

I don't agree there is a pre-trib rapture as taught by humans.

The Second Coming is pre-trib. The rapture cannot be split from the Second Coming. English Grammer cannot trump Greek writing, especially if the context is pointed to the Hebrew thought process. Greek is not that much different from English just less wiggle room.

Matthew was not English, so strictly applying English grammar to an interpretation of Matthew 24 is not allowing for context, but seeing Matthew as you want to, instead of the intent of the author.

You claim Revelation is too symbolic, but seems to me, you cannot change the order Revelation was written in, by using the flimsy excuse: it is too symbolic. Symbolism is one thing. The arrangement is another thing.

 

[The Light]

I don't agree with you on much, but I do agree with this. I mean, the pre-trib rapture theory is so obviously false that even you can recognize that.

The fact you don't agree with Davy much tells me you might know something. And then you had to go and say that the pre trib rapture FACT is obviously false.

Yes, the signs Jesus gave were related to the end of the age when Jesus returns, not to a supposed rapture occurring 7 years before the end of the age. They asked Him what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age, not what will be the sign that the pre-trib rapture is about to occur 7 years before your coming at the end of the age.

You are correct, the signs are about the end of the age. The end of the age occurs at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. The tribulation is over. IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days...........Jesus comes for the second harvest of the fig tree, then the one-year wrath of God begins as the 7th seal is opened.

There is a group of people, the Church, that is told when these things BEGIN to come to pass LOOK UP.

Luke 21
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

This same group, the Church, is told they can escape ALL THESE THINGS that come to pass. This includes the four horsemen of the Apocalypes and the great tribulation, as this time is the time of Jacobs trouble.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

There is another group of people, the 12 tribes across the earth, that are told they will SEE ALL THESE THINGS come to pass.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

The first harvest of the fig tree is the Church. The second harvest of the fig tree is the twelve tribes across the earth. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits. They are the first fruits of the second harvest.

Only the nation of Israel, those that that flee to a place of protection, and unbelievers will be on earth during the wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

The Second Coming is pre-trib. The rapture cannot be split from the Second Coming.

The second coming is pre wrath. The triblation is over when Jesus comes at the 6th seal. Then the one-year wrath of God begins.

Jesus comes for the Church before the seals are opened. Jesus comes for the second harvest of the fig tree, the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth, at the 6th seal, before the one-year wrath of God. Jacob had two brides Leah and the chosen bride Rachel.

The 7th seal is the wrath of God.

Additionally, Jesus comes at the end of the trumpets with the armies of heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No it does not. That is why you are wrong.

There is no drawn out GT that should be years but shortened prior to the Second Coming. That would be a dead give away that the Second Coming could happen. That would totally remove the thief in the night moment.

Jesus as King is on the earth at the 6th Seal, prior to the 7th Seal. The 7th Seal is prior to the first Trumpet.

You claim Revelation is not chronological to fit Matthew 24. I say Matthew 24 is in the reverse order to allow the chronological order of Revelation to remain as written. One book is not in the order as written, and that book is not Revelation.

In verse 14 of Matthew 24, Matthew declares an end.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

That covers everything up until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

Then Jesus works back from the end until the first sign. John states that 42 months leads up to Armageddon. The AoD is set up towards the beginning of that period in Revelation 13. So the AoD in Matthew is the last 42 months prior to the end.

The next event is the time of Jacob's trouble. John writes about this time in the first 6 Trumpets and the unwritten 7 Thunders. We see this in Revelation as written before the 42 months of the AoD.

The Second Coming is not after Jacob's trouble, but after those days of tribulation the church has gone though as mentioned in verses 4 to 14. The tribulation of the church is over because the church is no longer on the earth. "Those days" can be referring to verses 4 to 14 just as easily as to verses 21 to 28.

Before the Second Coming is the parable of the fig tree. That is certainly not an event after the AoD, after Jacob's trouble, and after the Second Coming.

You can change up Revelation all you want to try to fit Matthew's version of this time period. All I have to do is point out that Matthew was addressed to the Hebrews who would understand the arrival of an end point, and then working one's way back to a starting point, which is the parable of the fig tree.

The point is clear that the generation of the fig tree lives through all the events. If the parable is the last event, then that generation would be after all those events. You don't experience time backwards. You cannot be that generation and then go back and experience past events that already happened. The fact that the Second Coming is a thief in the night moment means it cannot be the last event after the AoD and the GT, even if that is what people claim about Revelation 19. Jesus declared it is not when you think it is. Obviously Jesus already knew what all would be written. Jesus is the Word. Jesus also knew that people would think Revelation 19 is the Second Coming.

You are only a post trib, by how you interpret Matthew 24. Revelation does not refer to a tribulation at all. Revelation does not even state an AoD nor an antichrist prior to a Second Coming. John does not declare Revelation 19 as a Second Coming. That is a human interpretation. John does not declare the 6th Seal is the Second Coming either. Yet he uses almost the same words Jesus and Peter used as the accepted point of the Second Coming. Neither Jesus nor John calls the Second Coming a thief in the night, but Peter does.

BTW, I think Mark is Peter's account as written by the scribe Mark. When it was scribed is not given. Peter was able to go into greater detail later in life, even able to write without a scribe. I don't expect any to agree with me on that point. Mark is still accepted as the first Gospel to be circulated. Peter was the one told to feed the sheep. Sounds like sending out copies of Mark would describe that task. John did not include the Olivet Discourse. He would be a witness to the events and write his version first hand. His OD is the book of Revelation.

Luke was the historical account relating more to 70AD, than to the actual Second Coming. I understand what you are writing. Obviously you don't think you are wrong. I am pointing out where you are wrong, so obviously you will either call my post nonsense or my own opinion, or that I don't understand what you write. You would still be wrong on all points.

You used all these words to say nothing. It's unbelievable. Not one word of this addresses the question that I was asking, which shows that you somehow don't even understand the question. So, let me ask it just in relation to your own view. Do you believe that there are any signs that have to take place first before the pre-trib rapture you believe in occurs?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The fact you don't agree with Davy much tells me you might know something. And then you had to go and say that the pre trib rapture FACT is obviously false.

At least we are apparently in agreement that he doesn't know much.

You are correct, the signs are about the end of the age. The end of the age occurs at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. The tribulation is over. IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days...........Jesus comes for the second harvest of the fig tree, then the one-year wrath of God begins as the 7th seal is opened.

And my question is whether or not this is what pre-tribs typically believe? That's what I've always thought, but there seems to be a few in this thread who believe there are signs that occur first before the supposed pre-trib rapture.

There is a group of people, the Church, that is told when these things BEGIN to come to pass LOOK UP.

Luke 21
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

This same group, the Church, is told they can escape ALL THESE THINGS that come to pass. This includes the four horsemen of the Apocalypes and the great tribulation, as this time is the time of Jacobs trouble.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

There is another group of people, the 12 tribes across the earth, that are told they will SEE ALL THESE THINGS come to pass.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

The first harvest of the fig tree is the Church. The second harvest of the fig tree is the twelve tribes across the earth. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits. They are the first fruits of the second harvest.

Only the nation of Israel, those that that flee to a place of protection, and unbelievers will be on earth during the wrath of God.

That is all just complete nonsense. If you read Luke 21 more carefully, you should see the context of what Jesus was talking about being worthy to escape were the things that would occur on the day He returns which is also the day that "heaven and earth will pass away".

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

The context here has to do with escaping all that will happen on "that day". What day? The day the Son of Man comes again and heaven and earth pass away. He wasn't talking about escaping literally everything that He had previously mentioned, He was talking about escaping God's global wrath that, in relation to unbelievers "will close on you suddenly like a trap". Just like what Paul talked about in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and Peter talked about in 2 Peter 3:10-12. What will happen on "that day" is that we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and then His wrath will come down on all His enemies (all unbelievers) on the earth.

 

[The Light]

At least we are apparently in agreement that he doesn't know much.

LOL

And my question is whether or not this is what pre-tribs typically believe? That's what I've always thought, but there seems to be a few in this thread who believe there are signs that occur first before the supposed pre-trib rapture.

I believe we are to watch so we will know when He comes. The closer we get the more we see.

That is all just complete nonsense. If you read Luke 21 more carefully, you should see the context of what Jesus was talking about being worthy to escape were the things that would occur on the day He returns which is also the day that "heaven and earth will pass away" .Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” The context here has to do with escaping all that will happen on "that day". What day? The day the Son of Man comes again and heaven and earth pass away. He wasn't talking about escaping literally everything that He had previously mentioned, He was talking about escaping God's global wrath that, in relation to unbelievers "will close on you suddenly like a trap". Just like what Paul talked about in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and Peter talked about in 2 Peter 3:10-12. What will happen on "that day" is that we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and then His wrath will come down on all His enemies (all unbelievers) on the earth.

I believe you need to read more carefully.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

The seed of the woman will see these things (Wars, rumors of wars, famines, pestilences and the great tribulation) come to pass.

The Church will ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS............and stand before the Son of man.........in heaven at the throne.

So in summary, The seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth will see all these things that happen in the 1st six seals and escape the wrath of God.

The Church will escape before the seals are opened. We will not be here during the tribulation as it is the time of JACOBS TROUBLE. This is when part of Israel gets it's eyes opened.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[Timtofly]

You used all these words to say nothing. It's unbelievable. Not one word of this addresses the question that I was asking, which shows that you somehow don't even understand the question. So, let me ask it just in relation to your own view. Do you believe that there are any signs that have to take place first before the pre-trib rapture you believe in occurs?

Not even a tribulation will occur before the Second Coming as a sign.

Do you think the tribulation is a sign of the Second Coming?

Do you think there is an AC as a sign of the Second Coming?

There is no sign of the Second Coming mentioned in Matthew 24 except the parable of the fig tree.

The rapture is the Second Coming. There is no separation of the rapture from the Second Coming.

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. That is a planned event. The 6th vial is the planning of the battle of Armageddon.

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The He in verse 16 is God.

The thief in the night moment is back in the 6th Seal. That is when they ask the question that is answered in verse 15. Years later they get the answer to their question after it is too late. They have made it to this point and on the battlefield at Megiddo will be their last stand. Armageddon is not the Second Coming even though it is the second time in the book. At the 7th Trumpet, if Satan is allowed 42 months, Jesus does not remain on the throne in Jerusalem as the declared King. In fact, Jesus hands over the kingdom to Satan in juxtaposition of the time Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms. Satan could not offer them to Jesus in the first century, because only at the 7th Trumpet will God have given them to Satan. They were never his to offer to God. Revelation 19 is Jesus taking back the kingdom after Satan's 42 months.

Those of you who think they will be around on the earth up until the 7 vials and the battle of Armageddon, may want to think twice.

"And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

God will gather everyone at that point, but not for a blessing. The whole earth will be gathered by God to be slaughtered at Armageddon.

Here is who God gathers:

"which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them"

This is who shows up:

"That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

So if you agree that is every last human. God gathered them all.

Now you really think that when God gathers everyone to this one place it will be a thief in the night moment?

What about this point in time when they asked the question:

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

There were way more alive at this surprise moment than the moment, much later, on the battlefield of Armageddon.

Is it really that hard to figure out which event is the Second Coming?

How can they be asking who shall be able to stand if they did not realize that Jesus was now on earth with them?

Did Jesus say in the OD He would return on a white horse? Who comes to the earth in the 6th Seal with Jesus? Does John not use the term stars several times in the book?

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth."

"I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."

"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth."

How many times in Revelation 19 are stars or angels mentioned?

I guess God's Word and common sense are just all nonsense to you, as that seems to be your most often used reply to my posts. That and "you never use Scripture".

There will be signs, but they will not be noticed by many. There were signs at the first coming. Even stars, and angels proclaimed to a few, but lost on the majority. The first 4 Seals are signs. But no one can even agree on what these 4 points even mean. The 5th Seal is mentioned many places throughout Scripture, but no one even relates this Seal to what it is, but seemingly to everything it is not.

How can you understand the signs that have to happen, if you don't understand the signs that have been given?

Many say that the dragon, the FP, and the beast have to be present as a sign for the Second Coming. But you still base the Second Coming on the wrong event, so what is the point? The rapture is not a separate event. The Second Coming is the thief in the night event, and it is not in Revelation 19. That is a planned event after God allows Satan 100% control of the entire earth. It is what Satan wanted when he tested Job. Yet some will still reject Satan, and choose God. But there is no rapture mentioned seperate from the Second Coming in Revelation, because Revelation 16:15 is not a rapture event at the very end. John is declaring that the Second Coming is still unknown, and certainly not part of God gathering the whole earth or what is left to Armageddon. The church is not mentioned in Revelation 19 either, so not the Second Coming. You may argue it is, but it cannot be. There is no church standing on the battlefield. There is no church coming on horses to live on the earth.

That is not how the church comes to the earth mentioned any where in Scripture.

The church is not the 2 witnesses killed and "raptured" to heaven. Explain where in the great commission to the church they get to go around killing everyone, even symbolically? You think they can be two individual branches or the whole branch left on the earth? You seem to nitpick the details. The only sign of the rapture that has to happen is a few seconds later Jesus is standing on the Mount of Olives. The Second Coming will have just happened.

 

[Davy]

There is no sign of the Second Coming mentioned in Matthew 24 except the parable of the fig tree.

WRONG.

Matthew 24:29-31 is the second coming of Jesus Christ to gather His 'faithful' Church.

The rapture is the Second Coming. There is no separation of the rapture from the Second Coming.

TRUE.

There is only ONE MORE coming by Lord Jesus Christ, and that is when His Church that is still alive on earth is "caught up" to Him and to the asleep saints He brings with Him, when He comes back to earth on the last day of this present world (to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem).

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. That is a planned event. The 6th vial is the planning of the battle of Armageddon.

WRONG.

Revelation 19 is... Christ's second coming. Jesus comes "as a thief" on the "day of the Lord", which means the LAST DAY of this present world. That is when He with His army of angels will fight the battle Armageddon with the nations having been gathered against Jerusalem. That also is the same day when 2 Peter 3:10 happens with man's works burned off the earth, ushering all into His "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not even a tribulation will occur before the Second Coming as a sign.

What does this mean? Are you denying that a tribulation will occur before the second coming? If so, have you never read this:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This talks about His second coming occurring "immediately after the tribulation of those days". Do you deny this?

Do you think the tribulation is a sign of the Second Coming?

It depends on what you mean by "the tribulation". So, what do you mean by it?

Do you think there is an AC as a sign of the Second Coming?

No.

There is no sign of the Second Coming mentioned in Matthew 24 except the parable of the fig tree.

What about this:

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Do you not see what He described here as being signs of His coming at the end of the age? It seems that what He said here is similar to what Paul said would occur just before His second coming. In 2 Thess 2:1-12 Paul indicated that a mass falling away from the faith would occur just before the second coming. Matthew 24:12 reminds me of that. And Jesus talks about an increase in wickedness before His second coming. Paul refers to that as well. That's the reason there will be a mass falling away from the faith before His second coming.

And what about this:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This mention "the sign of the Son of man in heaven". That is a sign of the second coming, is it not? He may not have been specific about what that sign is exactly, but He mentioned it right before describing His second coming.

The rapture is the Second Coming. There is no separation of the rapture from the Second Coming.

I agree. It's amazing that we actually agree on something. But, why can't you see in Matthew 24:29-31 that He indicated that the rapture and His second coming will occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days"?

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming.

And now you've gone off the rails. You can't be expected to be taken seriously if you deny something obvious like this. If Revelation 19 doesn't described the second coming then I don't know what does.

That is a planned event.

Is the second coming not a planned event? Of course it is. It's not as if it's possible that it won't happen. It is planned and it will happen. So, what was your point here?

I can't read any further right now because I can only take so much of your nonsense at this point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe we are to watch so we will know when He comes. The closer we get the more we see.

Do you think that the only reason we should watch is so that we know when His coming is near?

What about what Jesus said here:

Matthew 24:5 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

Seems that another reason for watching is in order to avoid being deceived. Would you agree?

I believe you need to read more carefully.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

The seed of the woman will see these things (Wars, rumors of wars, famines, pestilences and the great tribulation) come to pass.

The Church will ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS............and stand before the Son of man.........in heaven at the throne.

Let's try to communicate more carefully. How about that? And I mean both of us. Because right now I can only guess as to what you are intending to say and I'm pretty sure you are missing what I'm intending to say. You are not addressing what I was intending to say, at least.

What are "these things" exactly that you think the church will escape? As I showed already, Jesus indicated that He was talking about things that would happen on the day He returns, which is the day that the kingdom of God will come and heaven and earth will pass away. Read all of this in context:

Luke 21:31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

When you read this in context you should be able to see that He was talking about escaping the things that will happen on "that day" which will "close on" unbelievers "like a trap" and will result in the coming of the kingdom of God and in heaven and earth passing away. He did not say anything about escaping anything that will occur before "that day". How do you get a pre-trib rapture out of this when Jesus is only talking about escaping His sudden and unexpected wrath that will come down on the day He returns? Just like what Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 5:1-9.

 

[The Light]

Do you think that the only reason we should watch is so that we know when His coming is near?

Yes. As instructed by the Master.

What about what Jesus said here:

Matthew 24:5 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

Seems that another reason for watching is in order to avoid being deceived. Would you agree?

When someone says "watch out" that's saying "be careful". That's not the same as saying what for His coming. Additionally, we cannot be deceived if we pay attention to what the Lord says. When the Lord comes it will be like lightning from the east to the west. So if anyone claims to be God they need to appears as lightning and then rapturing believers.

Let's try to communicate more carefully. How about that? And I mean both of us. Because right now I can only guess as to what you are intending to say and I'm pretty sure you are missing what I'm intending to say. You are not addressing what I was intending to say, at least.

What are "these things" exactly that you think the church will escape? As I showed already, Jesus indicated that He was talking about things that would happen on the day He returns, which is the day that the kingdom of God will come and heaven and earth will pass away. Read all of this in context:

Luke 21:31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

When you read this in context you should be able to see that He was talking about escaping the things that will happen on "that day" which will "close on" unbelievers "like a trap" and will result in the coming of the kingdom of God and in heaven and earth passing away. He did not say anything about escaping anything that will occur before "that day". How do you get a pre-trib rapture out of this when Jesus is only talking about escaping His sudden and unexpected wrath that will come down on the day He returns? Just like what Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 5:1-9.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The people that see these things come to pass are not the same people as those that can escape all these things. There is not one single mention of anything that happens on that day, meaning the Day of Christ. Everything that is listed are things that happen during the tribulation. Some see these things come to pass as they are here during the tribulation. It is the time of Jacobs trouble. The Church, those who are worthy and watching can escape all these things that come to pass. The Church is in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened.

 

[Timtofly]

What does this mean? Are you denying that a tribulation will occur before the second coming? If so, have you never read this:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This talks about His second coming occurring "immediately after the tribulation of those days". Do you deny this?


It depends on what you mean by "the tribulation". So, what do you mean by it?


No.


What about this:

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Do you not see what He described here as being signs of His coming at the end of the age? It seems that what He said here is similar to what Paul said would occur just before His second coming. In 2 Thess 2:1-12 Paul indicated that a mass falling away from the faith would occur just before the second coming. Matthew 24:12 reminds me of that. And Jesus talks about an increase in wickedness before His second coming. Paul refers to that as well. That's the reason there will be a mass falling away from the faith before His second coming.

And what about this:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This mention "the sign of the Son of man in heaven". That is a sign of the second coming, is it not? He may not have been specific about what that sign is exactly, but He mentioned it right before describing His second coming.


I agree. It's amazing that we actually agree on something. But, why can't you see in Matthew 24:29-31 that He indicated that the rapture and His second coming will occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days"?


And now you've gone off the rails. You can't be expected to be taken seriously if you deny something obvious like this. If Revelation 19 doesn't described the second coming then I don't know what does.


Is the second coming not a planned event? Of course it is. It's not as if it's possible that it won't happen. It is planned and it will happen. So, what was your point here?

I can't read any further right now because I can only take so much of your nonsense at this point.

Because the tribulation of those days has been the last 1993 years. The church had tribulation immediately after Pentecost. Some have had less tribulation. Some even today are giving their lives in martyrdom. Not Jacob's trouble. Matthew 24:4-14 is not about Jacob, that is about the church and the tribulation of those days. Those days won't be shortened. In fact the last days of the church has stretched into almost 2 millennia.

Jacob's trouble happens after the Second Coming while Jesus and the angels are on the earth. Jacob's trouble happens after the fulness of the Gentiles is brought in.

 

[Timtofly]

This mention "the sign of the Son of man in heaven". That is a sign of the second coming, is it not? He may not have been specific about what that sign is exactly, but He mentioned it right before describing His second coming.

That is what I said. The sign of the rapture happens just after; as the sign of the Son of Man. Unless the rapture is the only sign of the Second Coming.


"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

The issue is that it will happen so fast, the gathering from heaven/Paradise, and the gathering from the earth that it will all be the same event. Jesus is on His way to the Mount of Olives though.

Those on earth mourning are the same people at the 6th Seal hiding in caves and under the rubble. The Lord is seated on the GWT whose face is as the sun and unable to look upon.

The church's tribulation is over, and Jacob's is just starting when Jesus lands on the Mount of Olives. John wrote down the Seals happen prior to the Trumpets. The Trumpets are the time of Jacob's trouble, not the church's.

Jacob being gathered on the earth is their time of trouble. Jacob is not gathered into Paradise. The goats are cast into the LOF. The sheep are those on the sea of glass.

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

This is still talking about life on earth after the tribulation and nations shall come and worship. Sound familiar?

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

These are still future events after the Second Coming, after the rapture, and even after Jacob's trouble when Jesus makes all things new, after removing sin, and Adam's dead corruptible flesh off the earth. And even among all the lost still left Jesus is sowing the seed of the Gospel, and some from every nation will still be redeemed in the wheat and tare harvest, the 7 Thunders.

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."

All nations will still have a remnant, the good seed gathered into the barn.

If Satan does not get his 42 month extension for the gleanings, those beheaded, then those not tossed into the LOF, after the goats and tares are all gone, will be placed in the winepress of God's wrath. Then the Day of the Lord will start with a new heaven and earth, to subdue.

If Satan is allowed 42 months, then they wait on the sea of glass, until Armageddon, and the sheep and wheat, along with the 144k, is the host on horses coming back to start the Day of the Lord, at Armageddon.

So the Day of the Lord will not start until there is the planting of seed by both Jesus and Satan. But it comes as a thief in the night with every work on earth burned up at the 6th Seal. Then between the 7th Seal and the 7th Trumpet there is that greatest time of Jacob's trouble. This includes the 7 Thunders. Then if time is extended for 42 months, we see God's wrath poured out in the 7 vials.

 

[The Light]

The issue is that it will happen so fast, the gathering from heaven/Paradise, and the gathering from the earth that it will all be the same event. Jesus is on His way to the Mount of Olives though.

Jesus is not on His way to the Mount of Olives at the gathering from heaven and earth. Jesus is on His way for the second harvest. Jacob had two brides.

Those on earth mourning are the same people at the 6th Seal hiding in caves and under the rubble. The Lord is seated on the GWT whose face is as the sun and unable to look upon.

No. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is getting ready to begin.

The church's tribulation is over, and Jacob's is just starting when Jesus lands on the Mount of Olives.

No. The Churchs tribulation is over before the seals are opened which is before the final week. See Revelation 4-5. Jacob tribulation begins with the confirming of the covenant for 7 years as the 1st seal is opened. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal and Jesus returns for the harvest. Immediately after the tribulation, they will be saying peace and safety and then sudden destruction will occur as they are cast into the wrath of God.

John wrote down the Seals happen prior to the Trumpets. The Trumpets are the time of Jacob's trouble, not the church's.

No. The seals are the time of Jacobs trouble.

Jacob being gathered on the earth is their time of trouble. Jacob is not gathered into Paradise. The goats are cast into the LOF. The sheep are those on the sea of glass.

Part of Israel has their eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That part is the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

This is still talking about life on earth after the tribulation and nations shall come and worship. Sound familiar?

The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. The nations do not come to worship until the trumpet of wrath are complete. The 7th seal is opened and the trumpets of wrath are blown in order.

So the Day of the Lord will not start until there is the planting of seed by both Jesus and Satan. But it comes as a thief in the night with every work on earth burned up at the 6th Seal.

There is a harvest at the 6th seal. See the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, which is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal which is the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14. Then the wrath of God begins.

Then between the 7th Seal and the 7th Trumpet there is that greatest time of Jacob's trouble.

The time of Jacobs trouble, the great tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

How can you not see that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars??????????????????????
God gives an absolute time stamp and you completely ignore it. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.
The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is NOT when Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives. It is when Jesus comes for the second harvest.

This includes the 7 Thunders. Then if time is extended for 42 months, we see God's wrath poured out in the 7 vials.

The trumpets are the wrath of God. Want to see the wrath of God again. The vials are the wrath of God

 

[rockytopva]

Rapture 2023? Beam me up Jesus!

 

[Rockerduck]

Jesus is coming soon. The Holy Spirit said to me "before it gets low" says the Lord."


Deuteronomy 32:21-22 –

21 They have provoked Me to jealousy by what is not God;
They have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols.
But I will provoke them to jealousy by those who are not a nation;
I will move them to anger by a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in My anger,
And shall burn to the lowest hell;
It shall consume the earth with her increase,
And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Isaiah 13:11 -

11 “I will punish the world for its evil,
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will halt the arrogance of the proud,
And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible”.

 

[Davy]

Yes, Matthew 24 is Jesus pointing to events LEADING UP to His future return (second coming). That is the ONLY time of His return and gathering of His Church in the future.

In 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul was pulling from the Old Testament prophets about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief" in the night upon the wicked and deceived. That is where that "sudden destruction" idea came from, which is about GOD's Wrath upon 'them' on the last day (the day of the Lord). That destruction will come at an instant, per God's prophets.

But that day is not to take those in Christ by surprise, as Apostle Paul says there. Thus Christ's Church is to be 'watching' the SIGNS of the end Lord Jesus gave us leading up to His future return on the "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night" upon the deceived world.

Paul had just covered the events of Christ's coming to gather His saints in the 1 Thessalonians 4 chapter. In the 1 Thess.5 chapter, Paul was giving more info about events set for that day.

 

[Timtofly]

And now you've gone off the rails. You can't be expected to be taken seriously if you deny something obvious like this. If Revelation 19 doesn't described the second coming then I don't know what does.

The 6th Seal.

John uses the same words Jesus and Peter uses to describe the actual Second Coming in the 6th Seal.

Armageddon is not a thief in the night event. Is the Second Coming a thief in the night event or a planned event, where God gathers all humanity to one location, prior to the Second Coming?

Revelation 19 describes Jesus coming on a white horse, after leaving on a white horse. Revelation 19 has no angels gathering any one from any where. They are all riding on white horses, unless white horses are symbolic for angels.

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Does the rapture include getting a new white horse with that new body?

No! Revelation 19 does not describe the Second Coming as described by Jesus, Peter, and even Paul. Revelation 6 describes the Second . The battle of Armageddon is not the Second Coming. Revelation 19 is the battle of Armageddon. Some have denied that Revelation 19 is even the battle of Armageddon because "Armageddon" is not in that chapter. Well neither are the words "Second" and "Coming".

"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

This same wording can be found in Revelation 14:19-20

"And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

Two different camera angles of the same event. One is sans Satan's 42 months. One is when Jesus and all those redeemed saints during the Trumpets and Thunders, return after Satan's 42 months. So they leave on white horses for 42 months, and return 42 months later. The symbolic form is found in Revelation 12:14-16

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

So a "giant eagle" takes all those on white horses to the sea of glass, and in Revelation 19 they come back to earth on white horses.


If they never leave, then Satan does not get his 42 months. Revelation 19 will not even happen. Revelation 14 will be the winepress of God's wrath, not Revelation 19.

If you read Daniel 9:27 Jesus will still confirm the Atonement Covenant with the many, but if Revelation 14 happens then the verse would read:

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and the week will be completed, and God will bring to pass, everlasting righteousness, the transgression will be finished, and sins will come to an end, and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

The same book that Jesus is opening the 7 Seals of. The confirming in Daniel 9:27 is not a human peace treaty. This verse is declaring the confirmation of those still found in the Lamb's book of life at the 7th Trumpet. The Trumpets, Thunders, Matthew 25, and Matthew 13, are all events where many are removed from the Lamb's book of life, while many will remain.

Now, certainly you don't accept a rapture that happens prior to some multi-year tribulation ran by some AC. But you still think some AC will run a multi-year tribulation that ends at the battle of Armageddon, you call a Second Coming. You cannot even call it the Second Coming, because it is not a thief in the night moment as described throughout the NT.

In fact Revelation 16 in a parenthetical thought points out the Second Coming was a thief in the night moment, not the up coming battle of Armageddon.

"to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

The day of the battle is in contrast to the Second Coming, the thief in the night moment where Jesus comes to remove those still in the Lamb's book of life. The Second Coming is in contrast to when God gathers those not in the Lamb's book of life to face the winepress of God's wrath. This winepress could have happened in Revelation 14 before the 42 months were given to Satan.

The Second Coming had already happened in the 6th Seal, even before the Trumpets and Thunders, and certainly before the 7th Trumpet. The days of the 7th Trumpet is when God as Messiah the Prince confirms the Atonement to see if those 42 months are even necessary. They will be necessary if there are still those found in the Lamb's book of life who have their heads chopped off during the 42 months as a testimony of Jesus Christ. That means there are some still found in the Lamb's book of life at the 7th Trumpet. Those with the mark will be removed from the Lamb's book of life at the moment they receive the mark. Those with the mark from the whole earth are gatherered by God to Armageddon to be killed in the winepress of God's wrath. Those without the mark, are also without a head, and are judged and given the first resurrection after Armageddon. The mark is not given prior to the 7th Trumpet. The mark is part of the 3rd woe, which is the 42 months granted to Satan where sin and death will continue to destroy the earth. The third woe is not prior to the 7th Trumpet. The third woe is the view presented in Daniel 9:27 where abomination and desolation will occur until resolved at the battle of Armageddon.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes. As instructed by the Master.

The correct answer is no because the Master didn't tell us to watch only so we would know when His coming was near.

When someone says "watch out" that's saying "be careful". That's not the same as saying what for His coming.

Any time it says to watch it relates to watching what's going on and being careful not to be deceived. In your view there is no real purpose to watching.

Additionally, we cannot be deceived if we pay attention to what the Lord says.

Part of the way we watch is by keeping His teachings in mind.

When the Lord comes it will be like lightning from the east to the west. So if anyone claims to be God they need to appears as lightning and then rapturing believers.

Of course.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The people that see these things come to pass are not the same people as those that can escape all these things.

What?! How are you coming to that conclusion? That makes no sense whatsoever. What you're missing is that "these things" in Luke 21:31 are not the same "these things" of verse 36. In verse 31, "these things" include things that occur before the day of His return. In verse 36, "these things" refer to the things that will happen on "that day" referenced in verse 34. That day is the day of His return at which point God's wrath will come down suddenly and unexpectedly "on all them that dwell on the face of the earth" and "heaven and earth shall pass away" at that point.

There is not one single mention of anything that happens on that day, meaning the Day of Christ. Everything that is listed are things that happen during the tribulation.

Wrong. He specifically mentioned that heaven and earth will pass away and He referenced the final wrath that will come down suddenly and unexpectedly on all unbelievers on the earth on "that day". You're not reading the text carefully at all.

Some see these things come to pass as they are here during the tribulation. It is the time of Jacobs trouble. The Church, those who are worthy and watching can escape all these things that come to pass. The Church is in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened.

That is not true at all. The scripture itself does not support that theory. Jesus is coming from heaven only once in the future and it will be "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and we will be gathered to Him at that time. This is what scripture teaches.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because the tribulation of those days has been the last 1993 years. The church had tribulation immediately after Pentecost. Some have had less tribulation. Some even today are giving their lives in martyrdom. Not Jacob's trouble. Matthew 24:4-14 is not about Jacob, that is about the church and the tribulation of those days. Those days won't be shortened. In fact the last days of the church has stretched into almost 2 millennia.

Jesus said He will return immediately after the tribulation of those days is over, right? That is the point I'm making. You seemed to have been denying that there was any tribulation at all that would precede His second coming.

Jacob's trouble happens after the Second Coming while Jesus and the angels are on the earth. Jacob's trouble happens after the fulness of the Gentiles is brought in.

Now, you've gone off the rails again with complete nonsense. This is not taught anywhere in scripture. At the second coming we will be caught up to Him in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17) and He will proceed to destroy all of His enemies at that time (Matt 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, etc.).