Rapture 2023? Don’t be Left Behind on the Late Great Planet Earth (or Worse)

[The Light]

What do you mean? I believe the wrath that it talks about occurring on the entire earth on "that day" is described here:

2 Peter 3:10 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

So the question is when will the heavens disappear and be laid bare. That can occur at the 6th seal, the seventh trumpet or at the end of 1000 years?

I believe that on the day Christ returns we will first be caught up to meet Him in the air and then what is described above will happen. Why can't it happen that way?

What you do not understand is that Christ returns to the clouds at the 6th seal. Christ returns to the earth at the end of the trumpets. When Christ returns for the harvest at the 6th seal, He is not coming for the Church as they are already in heaven before the seals are opened. See Revelation 4 and 5.

You say that, but do nothing to explain why that can't be the case. How can I take you seriously when you just say things without any explanation to back them up?


You're not making any sense. The idea of heaven and earth passing away at His second coming is not just taught in that passage. It's also taught in passages like 2 Peter 3:3-13.

It's really hard for us to communicate brother, as terms mean certain things to you and something different to me. Since you quote the verses of 2 Peter 3 why do you not notice this?

2 Peter 3
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So when you say the day of the Lord, you seem to be unaware that it lasts 1000 years. So when I am citing my explanations I am thinking that heaven and earth pass away at the end of 1000 years. You think it happens with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. I don't think you understand that Jesus comes at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation and then the 1-year wrath of God begins. Jesus returns after the year as He remains in heaven with His bride.

You have to be kidding me. That is not at all what Jesus was saying. You continue to ignore that He said we will escape the things that will happen on "that day", which will be the day He returns. Do you somehow not know that earthquakes, "nations rising against nations, famines, pestilences" have already been going on? Jesus said those things will happen, and they have been happening, but they do not indicate that the end is at hand just yet. Nowhere did He indicate that anyone would be taken off of the earth before those things happen. That's ridiculous. If that was going to be the case the rapture would have occurred before World War 1.

From these remarks I am concluding that you think the seals are already opened. You think that the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse have been riding since before World War 1?

The 70th week was fulfilled long ago. That was when Jesus confirmed the new covenant which put an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings. You couldn't have all of this more wrong if you tried.

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You have another incorrect premise. It is the people of the prince that shall come that shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. This has not occurred yet. It is talking about the destruction of the 3rd Temple.

I think He comes for the church shortly after that. The 6th seal indicates that His one and only future coming is at hand at that point and then it actually happens with the 7th seal. That's why heaven is silent at that point because everyone (Jesus, His angels, the souls of the dead in Christ) will have descended from heaven.

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. When the Church is raptured, the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in. God will turn His attention to the Jews and part of them will have their eyes opened. That will be the seed of the woman. There will be 144,000 first fruits taken to heaven, seen here.

Revelation 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

If there are acceptable first fruits, that means there will be a harvest, seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Proven here, that they are of the 12 tribes as they sing the song of Moses.

Revelation 14
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

That is complete nonsense and not taught anywhere in scripture.

You miss so much brother. The real problem is that those that believe in a pretrib rapture don't understand that there is a post tribulation rapture. They think that the tribulation and the wrath of God are the same thing. They are not. This is why you think you are correct in that you understand that there is a rapture at the 6th seal. And yet you don't understand WHO is raptured at the 6th seal. You don't understand that the fig tree has two harvests. You don't understand that one coming it will be like the days of Noah and one coming will be like the days of Lot. Noah was in the ark 7 days BEFORE the flood even as the Church will be in heaven 7 years before the end.

 

[Rapture and End Times]

Here is a prophetic outline that can help you understand the “big picture” of the Rapture, Tribulation, and Second Coming: The Book of Revelation: Prophetic Analysis

 

[The Light]

Here is a prophetic outline that can help you understand the “big picture” of the Rapture, Tribulation, and Second Coming: The Book of Revelation: Prophetic Analysis

Wow. That was a lot of work.

I noticed that you said that Revelation 11 lasts for 3.5 years. I don't believe this to be correct. I believe the wrath of God, Revelation 8-11, lasts 1-year.

Isaiah 34

Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

These verses in Isaiah 34 occur at the 6th seal as we can see below. The wrath of God lasts one-year.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[Davy]

Here is a prophetic outline that can help you understand the “big picture” of the Rapture, Tribulation, and Second Coming: The Book of Revelation: Prophetic Analysis

I'd rather stick to The Bible as written instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So should I just post it again, then?

The Lamb is not the church. The beast is not a literal beast. Megiddo is a literal place. Jesus is not figuratively on the earth. Jeaus is literally on the earth. Gog and Magog are the outcast of society. Alexander the great built a wall to keep them out of what is now modern Turkey. Obviously the land of Gog used to be a great place to live, but it became the cesspool of humanity and Alexander drove them out north of the Caucasus Mountain range, and then built a wall. The point being a people without a country or nation. At least according to legend.

The point is these people are willing to listen to Satan instead of the tradition of past generations.

Why do you ask ridiculous questions in return?

You can explain Revelation 17:14 then instead of always complaining. That would be an adult conversation.

There's something very wrong with you, but I'm not sure if there's anything you can do about it or not. I did not ask ridiculous questions. Your questions were undeniably ridiculous. In case you forgot, you asked these ridiculous questions:

Is the Lamb the church?
Is the Lord the church?
Is the King the church?

Do you actually think these are reasonable questions that anyone might answer "Yes" to? Give me a break. Get serious or go away.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then there is this: Luke 12:51-52

"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three."

What was your reason for posting this? What does that verse have to do with what I was talking about, which was Jew and Gentile believers being brought together as one body by the blood of Christ?

"We which are alive and remain" is not "dead in the ground". Rising first since the thief on the Cross, means they are already physically in Paradise just like Jesus is physically in Paradise. They serve God day and night in His Temple. That is a physical description. They have on clothes and wave palm branches. That is a physical description.

"Souls under the alter" is a figurative phrase symbolic of being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. You are literally currently a soul under the alter, unless you are not redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

LOL. You have no discernment whatsoever. Revelation 6:9-11 is clearly talking about people who have physically died. For you to not even be able to discern that is just unbelievable. Please ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So the question is when will the heavens disappear and be laid bare. That can occur at the 6th seal, the seventh trumpet or at the end of 1000 years?

That will be at hand at the 6th seal and then will happen shortly after at the 7th seal/7th trumpet/7th vial. Those are all parallel. And it will all happen after the thousand years and Satan's little season which is when Christ will return.

Peter very clearly indicated that the destruction of the heavens and earth and ushering in of the new heavens and new earth is in direct fulfillment of the promise of His second coming (2 Peter 3:10-13).

What you do not understand is that Christ returns to the clouds at the 6th seal. Christ returns to the earth at the end of the trumpets.

That isn't something for me to understand because it isn't true. He will descend from heaven once in the future and only once. When He does that it will be in the same manner in which He ascended to heaven, which was visibly and bodily (Acts 1:9-11).

When Christ returns for the harvest at the 6th seal, He is not coming for the Church as they are already in heaven before the seals are opened. See Revelation 4 and 5.

That is not taught in Revelation 4 and 5. You have no clear scripture to back up your doctrine. Your doctrine is based on speculation and assumptions you make from Revelation rather than on any clear scripture.

It's really hard for us to communicate brother, as terms mean certain things to you and something different to me.

Yes, I am well aware of that. But, are you aware that you have some unique beliefs that no one else has? It's difficult for anyone here to communicate with you because of your unique way of looking at all of this.

Since you quote the verses of 2 Peter 3 why do you not notice this?

2 Peter 3
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So when you say the day of the Lord, you seem to be unaware that it lasts 1000 years.

I notice every verse, but I also take it in context. The point Peter was making here had absolutely nothing to do with the duration of the day of the Lord. That is something you are making up. If you look at the verse following that one, you can see the context of that verse.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So, verse 9 explains the context of verse 8, not verses 10-12. What Peter was saying in verses 8 and 9 is that time is not an issue for the Lord since one day and a thousand years are no different to Him (since He created time and exists outside of the realm of time). Because of that fact, no one can say that He is being slow to fulfill the promise of His coming since His timing is not our timing. That's all that Peter was saying in 2 Peter 3:8. The duration of the day of the Lord is not part of the context of that verse at all. Only doctrinal bias could lead someone to think that.

So when I am citing my explanations I am thinking that heaven and earth pass away at the end of 1000 years. You think it happens with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

It's both. As an Amil, I believe He returns after the 1000 years (and after Satan's little season, which you seem to forget about). But, technically, I see it happening at the 7th seal. The 6th seal shows that it's at hand. Notice it talks about people wanting to hide from His impending wrath, but it hasn't fully come down quite yet at that point. But then it does shortly after and they are all killed.

I don't think you understand that Jesus comes at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation and then the 1-year wrath of God begins. Jesus returns after the year as He remains in heaven with His bride.

There's no need for me to understand things that aren't true.

From these remarks I am concluding that you think the seals are already opened. You think that the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse have been riding since before World War 1?

Not all of them. It appears that you and I think so differently that it may very well be impossible for me to get you to understand my view fully. There may not be anything I can do about that.

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You have another incorrect premise. It is the people of the prince that shall come that shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. This has not occurred yet. It is talking about the destruction of the 3rd Temple.

No, it is not. That prophecy is related to the first coming of Christ and what resulted from that. He was rejected and "cut off", as the prophecy says and that resulted in the destruction of the temple that was standing at that time. Once again, you have failed to see the context of a prophecy.

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

No, it is not. That is a compLetely baseless claim.

When the Church is raptured, the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in. God will turn His attention to the Jews and part of them will have their eyes opened. That will be the seed of the woman. There will be 144,000 first fruits taken to heaven, seen here.

This is utter nonsense. The fullness of the Gentiles will not come in until the fullness of the Jews also comes in. There will not be a time during which only Jews can be saved. That is ridiculous. Do you not know that God is not a respecter of persons? You are making Him out to be one.

Revelation 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

If there are acceptable first fruits, that means there will be a harvest, seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Proven here, that they are of the 12 tribes as they sing the song of Moses.

Revelation 14
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

You miss so much brother.

LOL. That's how I feel about you. You not only miss much, but you add a lot that isn't even there.

The real problem is that those that believe in a pretrib rapture don't understand that there is a post tribulation rapture.

LOL. This is utter nonsense and couldn't be further from the truth. Scripture teaches no such thing. There is only one rapture.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. You have no discernment whatsoever. Revelation 6:9-11 is clearly talking about people who have physically died. For you to not even be able to discern that is just unbelievable. Please ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

You mean no longer physically on the earth. No one in Christ is dead. You have no spiritual discernment of life after physical death. Jesus said that after the Cross, those in Christ would not even taste death. You have the wrong view of one in Christ after they leave Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Jesus said let the unbelievers bury their unbelievers. No one in Christ is buried, they are resurrected into Paradise.

The term souls under the alter is not what John literally saw. John was describing those currently in Paradise. Yet you in Christ via the second birth can claim that same symbolic phrase. You are covered by the Atonement. You claim the first resurrection, as the second birth, but miss the point the second birth is the same symbolism as "soul under the alter".

Do you really think John saw literal souls under a literal alter? Yet a first resurrection to you is not a literal physical resurrection? The term first resurrection is not symbolism for the second birth. The term is literally a physical resurrection, because the first birth is physical. The first death is physical, so it would follow the first resurrection is physical.

Jesus did not have to be born prior to every one else. Jesus did not have to die prior to every one else. Why do you think Jesus had to be resurrected before every one else. Enoch did not taste death thousands of years begore the Cross. The OT saints had a first resurrection the day of the Cross. They came out of their graves with physical bodies that day. They ascended to Paradise Sunday morning with Jesus and were the first firstfruits presented to God as being made alive. They were the first in the order of 1 Corinthians 15.

They were literal souls in Abraham's bosom until they received a physical body at the Cross. But they were souls under the alter symbolically since they were redeemed in life, allowing them to go to Abraham's bosom instead of the torment of sheol itself. They were souls under the alter, since the Lamb slain was the symbolic view from God's perspective since before Creation. The Lamb and the Alter go hand in hand symbolically. The Lamb and the Alter are a symbolic theme of the book of Revelation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You mean no longer physically on the earth.

Of course. They are physically dead. What else could I have meant? Good grief.

No one in Christ is dead.

Their spirits and souls are not dead, but their bodies are. That's why Paul wrote about departing from his body to be with the Lord. He knew that the death of his body would result in his spirit and soul going to heaven to be with the Lord. What else could he have meant when he talked about departing his body and being present with the Lord? Have you even ever thought about that?

You have no spiritual discernment of life after physical death.

Sure I do. I know that our souls and spirits do not die, only our bodies do. Our souls and spirits go to heaven when we physically die. That is what scripture teaches and you foolishly don't accept that.

Jesus said that after the Cross, those in Christ would not even taste death.

Not spiritually. Obviously, people still died physically. You're not even thinking about this.

You have the wrong view of one in Christ after they leave Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Jesus said let the unbelievers bury their unbelievers. No one in Christ is buried, they are resurrected into Paradise.

Their bodies are buried. Your inability to differentiate between the body, soul and spirit is the reason that you are completely wrong about all of this. Ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[Timtofly]

What else could he have meant when he talked about departing his body and being present with the Lord? Have you even ever thought about that?

I have pointed it out many times:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

You are the one claiming they have no physical bodies in Paradise. They are physically alive in Paradise. They are not tasting death in Abraham's bosom. Adam's dead corruptible flesh is buried in the ground. It is going to remain there dissolving back into dust.

Did you think Paul meant his house with doors and windows is waiting for him? Paul was talking about leaving the corruptible body in the grave to receive God permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have pointed it out many times:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

You are the one claiming they have no physical bodies in Paradise. They are physically alive in Paradise. They are not tasting death in Abraham's bosom. Adam's dead corruptible flesh is buried in the ground. It is going to remain there dissolving back into dust.

Did you think Paul meant his house with doors and windows is waiting for him? Paul was talking about leaving the corruptible body in the grave to receive God permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise.

Your view blatantly contradicts what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. He said we will ALL be changed to have incorruptible bodies at the same time, which will be when the last trumpet sounds. And he indicated that will occur when all of the dead in Christ are raised. Why do you just ignore what Paul taught about all believers being changed to have incorruptible bodies at the same time when the last trumpet sounds?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Timtofly]

Your view blatantly contradicts what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. He said we will ALL be changed to have incorruptible bodies at the same time, which will be when the last trumpet sounds. And he indicated that will occur when all of the dead in Christ are raised. Why do you just ignore what Paul taught about all believers being changed to have incorruptible bodies at the same time when the last trumpet sounds?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

My view does not violate those verses. But your interpretation of those verses contradict 2 Corinthians 5:1.

The dead in Christ will be changed. Those alive in Christ are already changed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My view does not violate those verses.

Yes, it absolutely does because you do not have all believers being changed to have incorruptible bodies at the same time (at the sound of the seventh trumpet) as Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

But your interpretation of those verses contradict 2 Corinthians 5:1.

No, it doesn't. You are trying to play a game of setting one scripture against another. That's unacceptable. Our views should be able to be reconciled with all scripture. You have done NOTHING to show your view can be reconciled with 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

As for 2 Corinthians 5:1, where does that say that we are changed to have incorruptible bodies immediately upon death? It doesn't. Whereas 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 very specifically says that will happen for all of us at the same time at the last trumpet.

The dead in Christ will be changed.

When? Paul said that will happen at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-52). Do you believe that the last trumpet has sounded already?

Those alive in Christ are already changed.

No, they are not. What are you basing this on?

 

[Timtofly]

As for 2 Corinthians 5:1, where does that say that we are changed to have incorruptible bodies immediately upon death? It doesn't.

Of course it does, since obviously you have no alternative point Paul was making.

The entire church is glorified at the Second Coming. Glorified does not mean putting on a physical body.

 

[Rockerduck]

Christians chosen by God are sanctified, Justified, and Glorified

1 Corinthians 6:11 - But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called(sanctified); whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

It is complete, its a done deal.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course it does, since obviously you have no alternative point Paul was making.

The entire church is glorified at the Second Coming. Glorified does not mean putting on a physical body.

You say the change to incorruptible bodies occurs upon each person's death. Paul said it happens at the last trumpet. Has the last trumpet sounded yet? Yes or no?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Davy]

Christians chosen by God are sanctified, Justified, and Glorified

1 Corinthians 6:11 - But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called(sanctified); whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

It is complete, its a done deal.

Lot more things written in the rest of God's Word.

My Bible declares 'conditions' for that above to be true.

Apostle Paul in Galatians 5 showed that IF... we walk by The Spirit, only then we are not subject to the law.

1 John 1 reveals we still need to repent... of future sin, to Christ, in order to stay in the 'walk' with Him.

Apostle Paul said for each believer to work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

 

[Rockerduck]

Apostle Paul in Galatians 5 showed that IF... we walk by The Spirit, only then we are not subject to the law.

I walk in the Holy Spirit because I'm filled with the Holy Spirit. I do wish more Holy Spirit filled Christians would get excited as I am in bible studies and Sunday classes. I'm washed in the Blood of Jesus and glorify His name.

 

[Timtofly]

You say the change to incorruptible bodies occurs upon each person's death. Paul said it happens at the last trumpet. Has the last trumpet sounded yet? Yes or no?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Those is Adam's dead corruptible flesh are the dead. Those currently in Paradise are not dead in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Those currently in Paradise are in God's permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They are alive, not dead.

This body is not changed. This body returns to dust. The soul changes bodies from one garment to another garment, hence this corruption puts on incorruption. You don't change the body, you don't have on two bodies, one of corruption and one of incorruption. You leave one body and put on a totally different body.

Those currently in Paradise have already left their old corruptible flesh. Yet you deny them having on God's permanent incorruptible physical body. When Paul clearly indicates in 2 Corinthians 5:1 that body is waiting in Paradise, and ready when the soul steps out of one into another. God does not resurrect the old. God creates a brand new body made by God. See the difference. One is a genetic copy of Adam, human. The other is from God, not man.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

They are already incorruptible. They have on God's permanent incorruptible physical body. The verse does not say they are raised corruptible and then changed. Paul is saying they come with Jesus in their current form, incorruptible. Nothing about them being changed, as they are already changed. Those who need the change are those still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

 

[strepho]

The rapture theory is false doctrine. Ezekiel chapter 13, God hates the fly away doctrine. Second thessalonians chapter 2, God is sending strong delusions on those who love not the truth. Those who worshipped antichrist near future, will have spot in hell, called sheol. It's holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. The wrong side of the gulf is a miserable place. There's no love or comfort in sheol. I advise to study sound doctrine. Those who choose to follow satan as antichrist will have spot in hell.