Rapture 2023? Don’t be Left Behind on the Late Great Planet Earth (or Worse)

[Spiritual Israelite]

The 6th Seal.

John uses the same words Jesus and Peter uses to describe the actual Second Coming in the 6th Seal.

Yes, that is true. But, is there some reason why the second coming can't be referenced more than once in the book of Revelation? Your insistence on believing that all of the events recorded in the book are meant to all be taken in chronological order is what prevents you from understanding what the book is saying.

Armageddon is not a thief in the night event. Is the Second Coming a thief in the night event or a planned event, where God gathers all humanity to one location, prior to the Second Coming?

You miss all the symbolism in the book and that's another reason you don't understand anything that is written in it. It's not saying that people are purposely gathered into one location in anticipation of His second coming. That's ridiculous. That will not happen. It's symbolically representing how in the time just before His second coming, unbelievers around the world will unite against the church with the goal of destroying it globally. There will be no literal gathering at a literal, physical place called Armageddon. That isn't any more literal than mystery Babylon or "Gog and Magog". Can you see in Revelation 20:8 that "Gog and Magog" symbolically represent the people who number "as the sand of the sea" throughout the earth who oppose God's people? So, it's clearly not talking about a literal place called Magog (in the OT Gog is a person and Magog is a place). Armageddon should be understood similarly.

Revelation 19 describes Jesus coming on a white horse, after leaving on a white horse. Revelation 19 has no angels gathering any one from any where. They are all riding on white horses, unless white horses are symbolic for angels.

Not every passage related to the second coming has all of the same details about it. This is a very weak argument. How can we relate any two passages of scripture together if we can only relate them together if they have all the same details?

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Does the rapture include getting a new white horse with that new body?

No!

LOL!!! Why are you taking all of that literally? Are you kidding me? Do you also believe that Jesus will be literally slaying people with a literal sword coming out of His mouth? Do you ever ask God for wisdom like James says we should do (James 1:5-7)? You seem to have none.

Revelation 19 does not describe the Second Coming as described by Jesus, Peter, and even Paul.

Yes, it most certainly does. Just like Jesus, Peter and Paul, Revelation 19 describes Jesus coming down from heaven and destroying all of His enemies.

Revelation 6 describes the Second . The battle of Armageddon is not the Second Coming.

Yes, it most certainly is. Pray for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

Revelation 19 is the battle of Armageddon. Some have denied that Revelation 19 is even the battle of Armageddon because "Armageddon" is not in that chapter. Well neither are the words "Second" and "Coming".

Do you realize you are contradicting yourself here? First, you're criticizing people for not believing that Revelation 19 is about the battle of Armageddon but then you turn around and try to say that it isn't about the second coming because it doesn't have the words "second" and "coming"? Are you serious? You can't be for real.

"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

This same wording can be found in Revelation 14:19-20

"And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

Two different camera angles of the same event.

This is shocking! You mean you don't take the whole book to be in chronological order then? You never have indicated that before. Why can you recognize those two passages as being the same event, but can't recognize that they are both about the second coming of Christ? That makes no sense. There is no reason to think He will tread the winepress of the wrath of God at any time besides His second coming. You say He will come at the 6th seal. Does that not describe His wrath being at hand? All of these passages are describing camera angles of the same event, which is the second coming of Christ. I can't understand how you can recognize that regarding Revelation 6:12-17, but not Revelation 14:19-20 and Revelation 19.

One is sans Satan's 42 months. One is when Jesus and all those redeemed saints during the Trumpets and Thunders, return after Satan's 42 months. So they leave on white horses for 42 months, and return 42 months later. The symbolic form is found in Revelation 12:14-16

This is pure nonsense. You are all over the place with your interpretations.

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

So a "giant eagle" takes all those on white horses to the sea of glass, and in Revelation 19 they come back to earth on white horses.

LOL. Why do you take all of that literally? Do you have something against symbolism? Regardless, I have no idea of what you were intending to say here.

The same book that Jesus is opening the 7 Seals of. The confirming in Daniel 9:27 is not a human peace treaty. This verse is declaring the confirmation of those still found in the Lamb's book of life at the 7th Trumpet. The Trumpets, Thunders, Matthew 25, and Matthew 13, are all events where many are removed from the Lamb's book of life, while many will remain.

Now, certainly you don't accept a rapture that happens prior to some multi-year tribulation ran by some AC. But you still think some AC will run a multi-year tribulation that ends at the battle of Armageddon, you call a Second Coming. You cannot even call it the Second Coming, because it is not a thief in the night moment as described throughout the NT.

In fact Revelation 16 in a parenthetical thought points out the Second Coming was a thief in the night moment, not the up coming battle of Armageddon.

"to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

The day of the battle is in contrast to the Second Coming, the thief in the night moment where Jesus comes to remove those still in the Lamb's book of life. The Second Coming is in contrast to when God gathers those not in the Lamb's book of life to face the winepress of God's wrath. This winepress could have happened in Revelation 14 before the 42 months were given to Satan.

The Second Coming had already happened in the 6th Seal, even before the Trumpets and Thunders, and certainly before the 7th Trumpet. The days of the 7th Trumpet is when God as Messiah the Prince confirms the Atonement to see if those 42 months are even necessary. They will be necessary if there are still those found in the Lamb's book of life who have their heads chopped off during the 42 months as a testimony of Jesus Christ. That means there are some still found in the Lamb's book of life at the 7th Trumpet. Those with the mark will be removed from the Lamb's book of life at the moment they receive the mark. Those with the mark from the whole earth are gatherered by God to Armageddon to be killed in the winepress of God's wrath. Those without the mark, are also without a head, and are judged and given the first resurrection after Armageddon. The mark is not given prior to the 7th Trumpet. The mark is part of the 3rd woe, which is the 42 months granted to Satan where sin and death will continue to destroy the earth. The third woe is not prior to the 7th Trumpet. The third woe is the view presented in Daniel 9:27 where abomination and desolation will occur until resolved at the battle of Armageddon.

I can't make any sense out of anything you said here. You are needlessly turning something simple into something extremely convoluted that no one can understand. I'm not even sure if you can understand what you said here.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus is not on His way to the Mount of Olives at the gathering from heaven and earth. Jesus is on His way for the second harvest. Jacob had two brides.

No. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is getting ready to begin.


No. The Churchs tribulation is over before the seals are opened which is before the final week. See Revelation 4-5. Jacob tribulation begins with the confirming of the covenant for 7 years as the 1st seal is opened. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal and Jesus returns for the harvest. Immediately after the tribulation, they will be saying peace and safety and then sudden destruction will occur as they are cast into the wrath of God.


No. The seals are the time of Jacobs trouble.


Part of Israel has their eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That part is the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. The nations do not come to worship until the trumpet of wrath are complete. The 7th seal is opened and the trumpets of wrath are blown in order.


There is a harvest at the 6th seal. See the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, which is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal which is the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14. Then the wrath of God begins.


The time of Jacobs trouble, the great tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

How can you not see that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars??????????????????????
God gives an absolute time stamp and you completely ignore it. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.
The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is NOT when Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives. It is when Jesus comes for the second harvest.


The trumpets are the wrath of God. Want to see the wrath of God again. The vials are the wrath of God

Landing on the mount of Olives is Jesus going for the Jacob harvest at the 6th Seal. The Trumpets are calling Jacob to assembly even if you call them the wrath of God. Why should God withhold His wrath on Jacob at the Second Coming?

Jesus is gathering the sheep and goats in person. Jacob is not raptured, the church is raptured. The 144k are sealed so the Trumpet judgment cannot affect them. They are on the earth with Jesus during the Trumpets and Thunders. They are sealed so they can be on the earth. One does not need sealed if they are no longer on the earth.

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Why would God hurt the 144k?

The Seals are not Jacob's trouble. Why make the 144k go through Jacobs trouble, and then seal them so they can still go through the Trumpets? The church goes through the first 4 Seals, then the church is raptured at the Second Coming. Then the 144k are sealed in preparation for the 7th Seal to be opened so the judgment of the Trumpets can start.

The Second Coming is not after Jacob's trouble. The Second Coming is after the tribulation of those days the church had gone through for the last 1993 years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus is gathering the sheep and goats in person. Jacob is not raptured, the church is raptured. The 144k are sealed so the Trumpet judgment cannot affect them. They are on the earth with Jesus during the Trumpets and Thunders.

You think Jesus will be on the earth during the seven trumpets and thunders?

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus said He will return immediately after the tribulation of those days is over, right? That is the point I'm making. You seemed to have been denying that there was any tribulation at all that would precede His second coming.


Now, you've gone off the rails again with complete nonsense. This is not taught anywhere in scripture. At the second coming we will be caught up to Him in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17) and He will proceed to destroy all of His enemies at that time (Matt 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, etc.).

Paul claimed he would still be alive so the tribulation was already ongoing in the first century.

Yes, the church's tribulation will stop immediately at the Second Coming. Obviously the church will not be around to persecute. You do understand that Jacob was never going to be raptured? Jacob was promised an earthly reign over all the other nations. But Jacob has to go through the greatest trouble they ever faced, before an earthly kingdom can be fully established.

You claim the church did not replace Jacob, but yet you do not even consider that the Second Coming is for Jacob, not the church. When the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, that is when the church is raptured. The Second Coming is Jacob's King coming to rule in Jerusalem. The rapture takes place at the same time as the Second Coming. Does the church have authority in Paradise? Well John sees thrones set up prior to the Millennium, although you place them in the first century, in your own interpretation. But the Jews were expecting an earthly king and kingdoms, because that was their OT inheritance. One you seem to deny, even though you claim Jacob was not replaced with the church.

Since the church did not replace Jacob, then the GT is for Jacob as well as the Day of the Lord when Christ sits on the throne as King.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul claimed he would still be alive so the tribulation was already ongoing in the first century.

That he would still be alive for what exactly? Please explain exactly what you mean using scripture.

Yes, the church's tribulation will stop immediately at the Second Coming. Obviously the church will not be around to persecute. You do understand that Jacob was never going to be raptured?

What does that even mean?

Jacob was promised an earthly reign over all the other nations. But Jacob has to go through the greatest trouble they ever faced, before an earthly kingdom can be fully established.

You claim the church did not replace Jacob, but yet you do not even consider that the Second Coming is for Jacob, not the church.

I have no idea of what you're talking about. How can you say that the second coming is not for the church? Do you think the following is not talking about the church being caught up to meet Christ in the air when He comes?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

If you think this isn't describing Jesus coming for the church then tell me what you think it is describing.

When the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, that is when the church is raptured.

The church will be raptured at the second coming as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 makes very clear. Also, 2 Thess 2:1 makes that very clear as well.

2 Thess 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

The Second Coming is Jacob's King coming to rule in Jerusalem. The rapture takes place at the same time as the Second Coming.

Okay, so you agree that the rapture takes place at the same time as the second coming. So, why did you say the second coming is for Jacob and not the church when it will be the church that is raptured at the second coming? You're contradicting yourself.

Does the church have authority in Paradise? Well John sees thrones set up prior to the Millennium, although you place them in the first century, in your own interpretation. But the Jews were expecting an earthly king and kingdoms, because that was their OT inheritance. One you seem to deny, even though you claim Jacob was not replaced with the church.

Do you understand that it was people like the Pharisees who had that expectation of the Messiah and Jesus had to constantly correct their misunderstandings of scripture? You need to be corrected in the same way.

Since the church did not replace Jacob, then the GT is for Jacob as well as the Day of the Lord when Christ sits on the throne as King.

The church is spiritual Israel which consists of both Jew and Gentile believers. Scripture does not divide up God's people the way you do. Instead, it repeatedly teaches about how the blood of Christ brought Jew and Gentile believers together into one body as the one people of God. You act as if you have never read the New Testament.

 

[The Light]

What?! How are you coming to that conclusion? That makes no sense whatsoever. What you're missing is that "these things" in Luke 21:31 are not the same "these things" of verse 36. In verse 31, "these things" include things that occur before the day of His return. In verse 36, "these things" refer to the things that will happen on "that day" referenced in verse 34. That day is the day of His return at which point God's wrath will come down suddenly and unexpectedly "on all them that dwell on the face of the earth" and "heaven and earth shall pass away" at that point.

How can what you are saying be correct if heaven and earth pass away at that point. Think about that. When do heaven and earth pass away?

Rev 21
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Wrong. He specifically mentioned that heaven and earth will pass away

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

You tell me I am not paying attention and yet you are missing the fact that heaven and earth does not pass away at this time. Jesus is using it as an example. He tells us this generation will not pass away until THESE THINGS are fulfilled. Heaven and earth will pass away, but His words will not pass away. Using this to show what He is saying will come to pass.

and He referenced the final wrath that will come down suddenly and unexpectedly on all unbelievers on the earth on "that day". You're not reading the text carefully at all.

The things that we escape are the beast of the earth and sea....the false Christs, nations rising against nations, famines, pestilences and the great tribulation. That's what all these things that will come to pass are.

The Jews will see all these things that come to pass as it is the 70th week of Daniel, the time of Jacobs trouble.

That is not true at all. The scripture itself does not support that theory. Jesus is coming from heaven only once in the future and it will be "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and we will be gathered to Him at that time. This is what scripture teaches.

The reason that you think you are correct is that you think that Jesus comes for the Church at the 6th seal (I think). This is not correct. He is coming for the seed of the woman. Jacob had two brides.

 

[The Light]

Yes, the church's tribulation will stop immediately at the Second Coming.

The Church's tribulation will stop before the seals are opened.

Obviously the church will not be around to persecute. You do understand that Jacob was never going to be raptured? Jacob was promised an earthly reign over all the other nations. But Jacob has to go through the greatest trouble they ever faced, before an earthly kingdom can be fully established.
You claim the church did not replace Jacob, but yet you do not even consider that the Second Coming is for Jacob, not the church. When the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, that is when the church is raptured. The Second Coming is Jacob's King coming to rule in Jerusalem. The rapture takes place at the same time as the Second Coming. Does the church have authority in Paradise? Well John sees thrones set up prior to the Millennium, although you place them in the first century, in your own interpretation. But the Jews were expecting an earthly king and kingdoms, because that was their OT inheritance. One you seem to deny, even though you claim Jacob was not replaced with the church.

Jacob has two brides. Both will be rapture. The Church before the seals are opened and the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman at the 6th seal. That is the second coming. But it is not the second advent. That will happen at the end of the trumpets of wrath.

Since the church did not replace Jacob, then the GT is for Jacob as well as the Day of the Lord when Christ sits on the throne as King.

And yet the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.

 

[Gottservant]

At this stage, you need to be focused more on the persecutions that come with overcoming, than the specific trials themselves.

We will overcome, one way or the other, but it won't be smooth sailing, just because we have faced our generations (spiritual) hurdle.

Jesus addressed, this right? "Pray" He said. Whichever order you do it in!

 

[Timtofly]

You miss all the symbolism in the book and that's another reason you don't understand anything that is written in it. It's not saying that people are purposely gathered into one location in anticipation of His second coming. That's ridiculous. That will not happen. It's symbolically representing how in the time just before His second coming, unbelievers around the world will unite against the church with the goal of destroying it globally. There will be no literal gathering at a literal, physical place called Armageddon. That isn't any more literal than mystery Babylon or "Gog and Magog". Can you see in Revelation 20:8 that "Gog and Magog" symbolically represent the people who number "as the sand of the sea" throughout the earth who oppose God's people? So, it's clearly not talking about a literal place called Magog (in the OT Gog is a person and Magog is a place). Armageddon should be understood similarly.

Armageddon is not people turning against the church. That is where you insert your own symbolic explanation onto a literal place. They are literally all gathered to the valley of Megiddo. They are not gathered by God to destroy the church.

Read this verse:

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings."

Is the Lamb the church?
Is the Lord the church?
Is the King the church?

This is the same gathering to Armageddon mention in the previous chapter:

"And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.... to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

How can you miss the point this is over 42 months after the Second Coming? The rapture already happened, back over 42 months prior, at the 6th Seal. This is not people turning on their neighbors. This is God Almighty gathering the whole of what is left of humanity to one place to kill them.

No, it does not matter how they are killed. You don't have to go overboard ridiculous on your misunderstanding of my post. A winepress is the symbolism meaning the job is thorough and complete. Not anything left for the birds. Because it will all be wiped from memory, and a new heaven and earth implemented immediately after the battle of Armageddon. The whole picture is symbolically the return on horses, but within an hour, the earth will be made new as if the last 6,000 years of sin and death had not even happened.

Obviously you, yourself think the NHNE happen immediately at the Second Coming. Why is the version as pointed out nonsense to you?

The Second Coming at the 6th Seal is a surprise. They are hiding in caves and under the rubble, because the heavens justed dissolved before their very eyes. All the works on earth were destroyed. The mountains and continents moved out of their places. That is what the verse claims at the 6th Seal. They are hiding from God, not preparing for battle all over the earth to turn over the church to the authorities. Totally the opposite stance at the Second Coming as from the return of Jesus and the sheep and wheat, gathered in the Trumpets and Thunders.

They are not on earth during those last 42 months of abomination and desolation. Revelation 12 says they escape to the wilderness, more symbolism. They are on the sea of glass, more symbolism. You can figure it out, and make stuff up, but the point is they return on white horses after the 42 months are over. They left at the 7th Trumpet when Satan was given 42 months in the middle of the week of days of the 7th Trumpet. That is what Daniel 9:27 is declaring. Satan gets 42 months during the 7th Trumpet.

Gog and Magog are not a place. Now you are conflating events. Gog and Magog are not Armageddon. These are not even the same events. God does not gather Gog and Magog. Satan gathers them. Satan does not gather them to Armageddon, God does.

Do you not read Scripture, or do you just make up your own eschatology?

When the 6th vial is poured out, John sees 3 spirits go out to gather the army, but it is He, God doing the gathering. The "He" is not the three spirits nor the 3 beings they come out of. People get Daniel 9:27 wrong the same way. They don't accept it is God working, but make up stuff about humans making peace treaties for 7 years. God gives Satan 42 months at the 7th Trumpet, and God gathers all humanity to Armageddon. Not the same event as Satan deceiving people a thousand years later.

In the Greek it is a literal place and the term is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word. This is not symbolism. Har Megiddo is the Hebrew. Har means literally a mountain. The valley is the land that forms the area near this mountain. It is literally an historic battlefield where many battles were carried out over the millennia. There is no reason to doubt God would gather them to that place, nor that this battle is merely symbolic.

 

[The Light]

Landing on the mount of Olives is Jesus going for the Jacob harvest at the 6th Seal. The Trumpets are calling Jacob to assembly even if you call them the wrath of God.

When Jesus lands at the Mount of Olives, that will occur at the end of wrath when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. The harvest at the 6th seal occurs before wrath, immediately after the tribulaiton. As for the trumpets, those are trumpets of wrath blown by an angel and have nothing to do with the trumpets of assembly. There are two silver trumpets. One I think will be for the Church before the seals are opened and the second will be for the seed of the woman at the 6th seal. Only the nation of Israel, those that flee to a place of protection and unbelievers will go through the wrath of God.

Why should God withhold His wrath on Jacob at the Second Coming?

The second coming is at the 6th seal. The second advent is at the end of the trumpets. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath. The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. There is a harvest for the 12 tribes (not the nation of Israel) at the 6th seal. Here is that harvest.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Who is harvested at the 6th seal. The 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman. Here we see them in heaven and they are singing the song of Moses showing they are of the 12 tribes.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Jesus is gathering the sheep and goats in person. Jacob is not raptured, the church is raptured.

The sheep and goats are at the end of the the trumpets. Jacob has two brides. The first bride is the Church which is raptured before the seals are opened. The second, the seed of the woman, is raptured at the 6th seal. Those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection are protected through the wrath of God. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

The 144k are sealed so the Trumpet judgment cannot affect them. They are on the earth with Jesus during the Trumpets and Thunders. They are sealed so they can be on the earth. One does not need sealed if they are no longer on the earth.

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Why would God hurt the 144k?

Now this is a great question. This was the hardest obstacle for me to get past. I just couldn't figure out what was happening as there seemed to be a conflicting problem.

The real question is, do the 144,000 that are sealed, go through the wrath of God.

This verse leads us to believe that they do.

Revelation 9
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Here is the conflict. If the 144,000 are first fruits, that means they are first fruits of a harvest.

So we see they are sealed here.

Revelation 7
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Here is the harvest.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

That means that the 144,000 DO NOT go through the wrath of God.

Can we prove that? Yes. The wrath of God is over at the end of the trumpets. Christ sets up His kingdom on earth. Armageddon has already happened and it is the time of judgement. That mean that Revelation 13 and 14 happen during the tribulation which is over at the 6th seal.

Here is the great tribulation. The great tribulation happens during the 5th seal.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here are the 144,000 redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

This proves that the 144,000 are sealed before the fifth seal, probably soon after the Church is raptured. The Feast of New Oil is a likely time for this to occur but I don't see any proof of the this yet. But we can prove that the 144,000 do not go through the wrath of God.

The Second Coming is not after Jacob's trouble. The Second Coming is after the tribulation of those days the church had gone through for the last 1993 years.

The Church is raptured before the seals are opened. The second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord occurs at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulaiton. Christ remains in the cloud and sends His angels for the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman is gathered from the earth. Both the dead and alive changed in the twinkling of an eye.
Both brides go to heaven for the marriage supper. At the end of the 1-year wrath the armies of heaven return to the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

That he would still be alive for what exactly? Please explain exactly what you mean using scripture.


What does that even mean?


I have no idea of what you're talking about. How can you say that the second coming is not for the church? Do you think the following is not talking about the church being caught up to meet Christ in the air when He comes?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

If you think this isn't describing Jesus coming for the church then tell me what you think it is describing.


The church will be raptured at the second coming as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 makes very clear. Also, 2 Thess 2:1 makes that very clear as well.

2 Thess 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.


Okay, so you agree that the rapture takes place at the same time as the second coming. So, why did you say the second coming is for Jacob and not the church when it will be the church that is raptured at the second coming? You're contradicting yourself.


Do you understand that it was people like the Pharisees who had that expectation of the Messiah and Jesus had to constantly correct their misunderstandings of scripture? You need to be corrected in the same way.


The church is spiritual Israel which consists of both Jew and Gentile believers. Scripture does not divide up God's people the way you do. Instead, it repeatedly teaches about how the blood of Christ brought Jew and Gentile believers together into one body as the one people of God. You act as if you have never read the New Testament.

Scripture does divide people up. Why claim it cannot?

You quote Scripture yet cannot understand it, but change it to say what you want it to say.

Paul was expecting to be raptured. That is what he wrote. You quoted the verses. Do you not accept what Paul said?

Jacob is not the church. That is the whole point you are literally missing by conflating Scripture. You change Scripture itself to say what you believe, instead of what it actually states.

 

[Timtofly]

You think Jesus will be on the earth during the seven trumpets and thunders?

I have been making that claim for 3 years. I hope you don't need 3 more years to understand the rest of what is in my posts.

 

[Timtofly]

The Church's tribulation will stop before the seals are opened.


Jacob has two brides. Both will be rapture. The Church before the seals are opened and the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman at the 6th seal. That is the second coming. But it is not the second advent. That will happen at the end of the trumpets of wrath.

And yet the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.

Jacob's trouble is not the Seals. Jacob's troubles are the first 6 Trumpets. God's wrath is the 7 vials in Revelation 16. That is after Satan's 42 months.

What tribulation is mentioned prior to the Seals in the book of Revelation?

You skip over the tribulation by stating, the church has to leave at a certain point. You do not even have verses in Revelation to prove your point. The church leaves at the Second Coming, and Jesus as King arrives at the Second Coming. And that is the 6th Seal, and nothing else in the whole book.

It should be clear that Jesus and the 144k are always together. They are as inseparable as the original 12 during the first coming. So they are on earth when they are sealed, just like the original 12 are on the earth when called as Jesus' disciples. They are sealed and on the earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. They are on the earth with Jesus, because that is what John writes.

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

How clearer can John be?

They are sealed while on the earth as the firstfruits of Jacob's trouble (before the 7th Seal is opened and the Trumpets begin). They are 1200 from these 12 tribes of Jacob. The Trumpets are Jacob's trouble, not the Seals, because they were sealed after the 6th Seal and after Jesus was on the earth in the 6th Seal. They went every where Jesus went. In Revelation 14, they are waiting to see if time is extended or not. If time is not extended they certainly don't leave the earth. They are with Jesus for the whole 1,000 years. They are the camp of the saints surrounding Jerusalem as the tribes were settled around Jerusalem originally. Jesus also redeems a third of Jacob and changes their name to Israel at the sheep and goat judgment on earth in Jerusalem during the Trumpets. The goats are removed from the earth and tossed into the LOF. That is Jacob in Matthew 25:31-46. That is GT, because most are tossed into the fire.

Jesus says that He and the angels are on the earth at that point. No one is alive on earth at Armageddon. Only those returning on white horses redeemed out of the final harvest, the Trumpets and Thunders. Those on white horses are not the church. They are those who left earth during Satan's 42 months, who are now coming back after those 42 months. If there are no extra 42 months, the wheat and sheep are still on the earth for the next 1,000 years. They only leave if Satan is granted that time. No 42 months, no leaving. The winepress happens during the days of the 7th Trumpet. Then the Millennium Kingdom starts on a newly restored earth per Isaiah 65. They don't clean up the mess of the Trumpets and Thunders. God cleans up the mess. The millennium starts with Satan bound, and those beheaded are resurrected, after facing judgment. The sheep were judged by Jesus back during the Trumpets. None of those at the start of the Millennium face any judgment after that, not even the GWT judgment.

In Matthew 13 Jesus told His disciples that Jesus would be sowing the wheat while Satan sowed the tares. How can Jesus be spreading the Gospel if not already on the earth? Jesus was giving out the Gospel at the first coming by personally sowing the seed, no? Jesus did not get baptized, went home to heaven, and remote communicated with the disciples, and then showed up the week of the Cross. He was physically on earth the whole time. Jesus and the angels will be physically on earth the whole time of the Trumpets and Thunders. But if Satan is allowed 42 months, they all go away. They don't co-reign with Satan. Satan is allowed 100% control, except for the lives of the two individual humans who are a thorn in the side of this Babylonian Empire. After the 42 months, and only then, is Satan allowed to kill them. But 3 days later they are given back their lives and ascend to heaven just hours prior to Armageddon. Armageddon is 60 miles from Jerusalem. Not sure how fast one can make it on horses, but the 7,000 stragglers in Jerusalem don't make it to Armageddon, because they are killed in the earthquake.

 

[Timtofly]

When Jesus lands at the Mount of Olives, that will occur at the end of wrath when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. The harvest at the 6th seal occurs before wrath, immediately after the tribulaiton. As for the trumpets, those are trumpets of wrath blown by an angel and have nothing to do with the trumpets of assembly. There are two silver trumpets. One I think will be for the Church before the seals are opened and the second will be for the seed of the woman at the 6th seal. Only the nation of Israel, those that flee to a place of protection and unbelievers will go through the wrath of God.

The second coming is at the 6th seal. The second advent is at the end of the trumpets. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath. The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. There is a harvest for the 12 tribes (not the nation of Israel) at the 6th seal. Here is that harvest.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Who is harvested at the 6th seal. The 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman. Here we see them in heaven and they are singing the song of Moses showing they are of the 12 tribes.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The sheep and goats are at the end of the the trumpets. Jacob has two brides. The first bride is the Church which is raptured before the seals are opened. The second, the seed of the woman, is raptured at the 6th seal. Those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection are protected through the wrath of God. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.


Now this is a great question. This was the hardest obstacle for me to get past. I just couldn't figure out what was happening as there seemed to be a conflicting problem.

The real question is, do the 144,000 that are sealed, go through the wrath of God.

This verse leads us to believe that they do.

Revelation 9
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Here is the conflict. If the 144,000 are first fruits, that means they are first fruits of a harvest.

So we see they are sealed here.

Revelation 7
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Here is the harvest.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

That means that the 144,000 DO NOT go through the wrath of God.

Can we prove that? Yes. The wrath of God is over at the end of the trumpets. Christ sets up His kingdom on earth. Armageddon has already happened and it is the time of judgement. That mean that Revelation 13 and 14 happen during the tribulation which is over at the 6th seal.

Here is the great tribulation. The great tribulation happens during the 5th seal.



This proves that the 144,000 are sealed before the fifth seal, probably soon after the Church is raptured. The Feast of New Oil is a likely time for this to occur but I don't see any proof of the this yet. But we can prove that the 144,000 do not go through the wrath of God.

You missed the whole point of Revelation 7.

The first bride Jacob is sealed on the earth. The second bride, the church is safe in Paradise. That scene in Paradise has been true since the Cross. The whole of the OT body is a multitude from every nation even in the OT, but the OT is not the bride, Jacob. The OT and the NT together are the entire church.

The souls under the alter is the whole entire assembly seen in Revelation 7:9.

These people now wait in Paradise, until the Jacob bride is gathered in the Trumpets. You are conflating the two brides yourself and claiming they are all in heaven together.

Nope no way. The bride of the church is and has been in Paradise since the Cross. They don't ever leave Paradise. They come down in Paradise after the NHNE, and it is called the New Jerusalem then.

The other bride, Jacob starts out with humans alive today, the 144k. They don't go to Paradise ever. Paradise comes to them as the New Jerusalem.

Those on the earth during the Millennium are those sheep and wheat harvested in the Trumpets and Thunders. You are close, but it is like driving a car down the road with just the rims and no rubber tires. Makes a lot of noise and racket, but hardly a way to drive a car.

Revelation 7 explains the period between the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet. The 144k are the firstfruits sealed for the up and coming harvest.

Those in Paradise, are explained as the church after the 6th Seal. Now there may be a billion Christians alive today. Maybe even more. That it would be the majority of the 8 billion would be even better. But there are already billions in Paradise from the last 5,993 years. Even the first sons of God, who never followed after Adam are among those in Paradise. Not sure why there would be more than one place in heaven where humans serve God day and night in His Temple. So this second half of chapter 7 did not just happen. They have been there since the Cross. That is what Jesus said on the Cross. Paradise was available and opened wide, because of the Cross.

Jacob cannot include those already dead, nor those in Paradise. Jacob will be taken only from those alive on the earth at the Second Coming. And they are not raptured. They all stand before Jesus on His Glorious throne in Jerusalem per Matthew 25:31-32.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

The nations are not gathered. The people are gathered out from the nations. Not all people. Jacob the other bride, as you keep inferring to. The church is not split between two brides.

One bride is the Church in Paradise.

One bride is Jacob on the earth.

One stays in Paradise and comes to earth in The New Jerusalem.

One will always be at home on the earth.

So no, the 144k don't become those mentioned in Paradise. The chapter is contrasted with those on earth and those in Paradise. The 144k only leave earth if Satan is allowed 42 months to have the AoD on the earth. The sheep make up the Jacob bride. The wheat make up all the other nations on earth during the Millennium. If one is already dead, they are not resurrected back into the earthly kingdom. That is the point of saying the rest of the dead do not live again until the thousand years are over.

The sheep and goats, wheat and tares are not dead people from the past. They are those alive on earth today, who never have to physically die. They are translated like Enoch was out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into permanent incorruptible physical bodies like Adam and Eve had prior to Adam's disobedience. They will not have sin nor be considered sinners. It will be their offspring who may disobey that first generation or whatever laws are set up. The first generation of the Millennium can never disobey God. They are the one's ruling and given eternal life to rule until the thousand years are over. In the NHNE things will be different again. No one can say what will happen other than what is already described in Revelation 21. Many cannot even understand the Day of the Lord. Much less the NHNE.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can what you are saying be correct if heaven and earth pass away at that point. Think about that. When do heaven and earth pass away?

What do you mean? I believe the wrath that it talks about occurring on the entire earth on "that day" is described here:

2 Peter 3:10 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

I believe that on the day Christ returns we will first be caught up to meet Him in the air and then what is described above will happen. Why can't it happen that way?

Rev 21
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

You tell me I am not paying attention and yet you are missing the fact that heaven and earth does not pass away at this time.

You say that, but do nothing to explain why that can't be the case. How can I take you seriously when you just say things without any explanation to back them up?

Jesus is using it as an example. He tells us this generation will not pass away until THESE THINGS are fulfilled. Heaven and earth will pass away, but His words will not pass away. Using this to show what He is saying will come to pass.

You're not making any sense. The idea of heaven and earth passing away at His second coming is not just taught in that passage. It's also taught in passages like 2 Peter 3:3-13.

The things that we escape are the beast of the earth and sea....the false Christs, nations rising against nations, famines, pestilences and the great tribulation. That's what all these things that will come to pass are.

You have to be kidding me. That is not at all what Jesus was saying. You continue to ignore that He said we will escape the things that will happen on "that day", which will be the day He returns. Do you somehow not know that earthquakes, "nations rising against nations, famines, pestilences" have already been going on? Jesus said those things will happen, and they have been happening, but they do not indicate that the end is at hand just yet. Nowhere did He indicate that anyone would be taken off of the earth before those things happen. That's ridiculous. If that was going to be the case the rapture would have occurred before World War 1.

The Jews will see all these things that come to pass as it is the 70th week of Daniel, the time of Jacobs trouble.

The 70th week was fulfilled long ago. That was when Jesus confirmed the new covenant which put an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings. You couldn't have all of this more wrong if you tried.

The reason that you think you are correct is that you think that Jesus comes for the Church at the 6th seal (I think).

I think He comes for the church shortly after that. The 6th seal indicates that His one and only future coming is at hand at that point and then it actually happens with the 7th seal. That's why heaven is silent at that point because everyone (Jesus, His angels, the souls of the dead in Christ) will have descended from heaven.

This is not correct. He is coming for the seed of the woman. Jacob had two brides.

That is complete nonsense and not taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Armageddon is not people turning against the church. That is where you insert your own symbolic explanation onto a literal place. They are literally all gathered to the valley of Megiddo. They are not gathered by God to destroy the church.

Did you read all of what I said? Why do you not address the points I made? Afraid?

Do you think the Babylon referenced in Revelation is a literal place?

Do you think the reference to "Gog and Magog" in Revelation 20:8 is a reference to a literal Gog person and literal land of Magog?

Read this verse:

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings."

Is the Lamb the church?
Is the Lord the church?
Is the King the church?

What do you think you accomplish by asking ridiculous questions like this? Do you expect to be taken seriously when you post nonsense like this? I am not going to waste my time reading the rest of your post because it's clear you're not interested in having a serious adult discussion.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Scripture does divide people up. Why claim it cannot?

Scripture repeatedly talks about how Christ brought Jew and Gentile believers together into one body. Do you have any understanding of passages like this:

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

You quote Scripture yet cannot understand it, but change it to say what you want it to say.

Sometimes, you just repeat things that I say about you. That is hilarious.

Paul was expecting to be raptured. That is what he wrote. You quoted the verses. Do you not accept what Paul said?

When did I say he doesn't expect to be raptured? I didn't. Your lack of reading comprehension skills strikes again. He will be raptured. The rapture includes the dead in Christ, of which Paul is one.

Jacob is not the church. That is the whole point you are literally missing by conflating Scripture.

LOL. I never said that Jacob is the church. There's your reading comprehension problem rearing its ugly head yet again.

You change Scripture itself to say what you believe, instead of what it actually states.

Nope, I don't. You just say that because I said that about you. How original. You noticeably didn't specifically address any of the points that I made. Are you afraid to do that or is it just that you know that you are unable to refute my points?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have been making that claim for 3 years. I hope you don't need 3 more years to understand the rest of what is in my posts.

I did know that, but some others here may not, so I just wanted to bring attention to it again so that people know that they can't take you seriously because of ridiculous beliefs you have like that one.

 

[Timtofly]

Did you read all of what I said? Why do you not address the points I made? Afraid?

Do you think the Babylon referenced in Revelation is a literal place?

Do you think the reference to "Gog and Magog" in Revelation 20:8 is a reference to a literal Gog person and literal land of Magog?


What do you think you accomplish by asking ridiculous questions like this? Do you expect to be taken seriously when you post nonsense like this? I am not going to waste my time reading the rest of your post because it's clear you're not interested in having a serious adult discussion.

So should I just post it again, then?

The Lamb is not the church. The beast is not a literal beast. Megiddo is a literal place. Jesus is not figuratively on the earth. Jeaus is literally on the earth. Gog and Magog are the outcast of society. Alexander the great built a wall to keep them out of what is now modern Turkey. Obviously the land of Gog used to be a great place to live, but it became the cesspool of humanity and Alexander drove them out north of the Caucasus Mountain range, and then built a wall. The point being a people without a country or nation. At least according to legend.

The point is these people are willing to listen to Satan instead of the tradition of past generations.

Why do you ask ridiculous questions in return?

You can explain Revelation 17:14 then instead of always complaining. That would be an adult conversation.

 

[Timtofly]

Scripture repeatedly talks about how Christ brought Jew and Gentile believers together into one body. Do you have any understanding of passages like this:

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Then there is this: Luke 12:51-52

"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three."

Sometimes, you just repeat things that I say about you. That is hilarious.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

When did I say he doesn't expect to be raptured? I didn't. Your lack of reading comprehension skills strikes again. He will be raptured. The rapture includes the dead in Christ, of which Paul is one.

"We which are alive and remain" is not "dead in the ground". Rising first since the thief on the Cross, means they are already physically in Paradise just like Jesus is physically in Paradise. They serve God day and night in His Temple. That is a physical description. They have on clothes and wave palm branches. That is a physical description.

"Souls under the alter" is a figurative phrase symbolic of being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. You are literally currently a soul under the alter, unless you are not redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

LOL. I never said that Jacob is the church. There's your reading comprehension problem rearing its ugly head yet again.

Yet you refuse to accept Jacob will be gathered from the earth after the Second Coming. The first 144k are sealed and ready to be the disciples of Jesus on the earth as the firstfruits of the harvest of Jacob during the Trumpets, after the Second Coming and rapture in the 6th Seal. A remnant of Jacob will be redeemed from the earth. This is the sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25. Jesus is sitting on His glorious throne in Jerusalem.

Nope, I don't. You just say that because I said that about you. How original. You noticeably didn't specifically address any of the points that I made. Are you afraid to do that or is it just that you know that you are unable to refute my points?

Then prove you don't think the 144k represent the church.

Prove you don't think the sheep represent the church.

They are not the church. They are Jacob alive on the earth after the Second Coming. Prove they don't rule with Christ on the earth for a thousand years.

You said you claim you never said Jacob was the church. Now you can prove that by showing how Revelation 7 is not saying the 144k are Jacob, without changing a word, or saying this actually means something else.