Rapture Debate.

[buddyt]

Do you know when a thief will come ? And why do you ignore Gods word as it is written ? I'm not trying to argue with anyone here but I can't help but ask these questions. Please explain to me what you see in these books and verses that prove to be as you say. I don't think you can. But I can tell you what Ezekiel 13:20 says. I believe you know also but for some reason just wont listen to his word. I understand being told all your life about a rapture you have been brain washed to believe the lie. Wake up and divide the word of God with understanding.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Do you know when a thief will come ?

Hi buddyt,

Jesus actually comes like a thief to nonbelievers, not believers. Read Matt 24:37-41 and 1 Thess 5:1-11.

Please explain to me what you see in these books and verses that prove to be as you say. I don't think you can.

Paul and John both teach rapture.

The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away.

Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea, Acts 8:39 and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven, 2 Cor 12:2-4. Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.

Are you aware of the Rev 12:1-5 great sign coming to pass on 9/23/17? Harpazo is in Rev 12:5.

I understand being told all your life about a rapture you have been brain washed to believe the lie.

Wake up and divide the word of God with understanding.

That's right, wake up or He will come like a thief to you!

Rev 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

 

[keras]

Thanks BuddyT for keeping this thread going.
It is now just as Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 - people will believe fables and stop their ears to the truth....

People who post on this subject must be clear about where the 'rapture' takes them. The 1 Thess 4:15-17 prophecy is about a 'harparso' a gathering up of God's people. But it doesn't say they go to heaven and nowhere else is that idea in the Bible. In fact many verses prove such an idea is impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, John 17:15, +
Consider how this issue has been argued over for 100 + years. They are just as far from a consensus as ever and often very heated and unchristian words are used. This is obvious proof of the rapture theory being a Satanic doctrine, hatched and promoted by the father of lies

But the real, incontrovertible truth about God's plans for his people is found in many prophesies, telling how all true believers will be gathered and settled into all of the holy Land. This will happen soon after the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will clear and cleanse the entire ME region. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jer. 10:18, Zechariah 2:4-5, +

I could say much more about what God has planned for our future, but simply that it will be amazing and God will pour down His blessings onto all who stand firm in their faith in Him.
logostelos.info

 

[buddyt]

Heb13:8

Please be reminded of what the subject is for the verses in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul is telling us where the dead are. That's the subject. And in verse 16 he's letting us know Christ returns at the LAST TRUMP the trump of GOD. This is written no question about it. Verse 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. What words ? The words that tell you where your Love-one has gone. Your simply reading into these verses something that's not their.

Revelation 12:5 Is speaking of our savory Jesus Christ. You have given me not one verse that supports this teaching. I again will mention Ezekiel 13:20. Does man just ignore and read into verses what he has comfort in. And ignore verses that Father has written so simply children can understand.

Be reminded of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 Paul understood the misunderstanding the Thessalonian s had with his first letter. Much as it is today. To set the word straight he wrote this second letter. Read it with understanding.

 

[buddyt]

keras
I agree 100%
BlessYou

 

[Heb 13:8]

Please be reminded of what the subject is for the verses in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul is telling us where the dead are. That's the subject.

1 Thess 4:15-17 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

And in verse 16 he's letting us know Christ returns at the LAST TRUMP the trump of GOD.

Right, and what do you think the Feast of Trumpets is in September.

Joe 2:1-2 Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming. It is close at hand— 2a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such as never was in ancient times nor ever will be in ages to come.

Zep 1:14-16 The great day of the LORD is near— near and coming quickly. The cry on the day of the LORD is bitter; the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry. 15That day will be a day of wrath— a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness— 16a day of trumpet and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the corner towers.

1 Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Cor 15:51-52 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The words that tell you where your Love-one has gone. Your simply reading into these verses something that's not their.

1 Thess 4:13-17 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Revelation 12:5 Is speaking of our savory Jesus Christ.

No, it's actually speaking of the church, being born into incorruptible seed at rapture. Read Col 1:18. Notice below where John is connecting the head with the body through rapture by using the words "huios", "teknon" and "harpazo"..

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman (Israel) clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She (Israel) was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon (Satan) with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon (Satan) stood in front of the woman (Israel) who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon the church) the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

1. John uses the words "huios" and "teknon" in Rev 12:5, head and body Col 1:18
2. The head (Jesus Christ) was birthed 2,000 years ago when He ascended to heaven
3. The body was conceived 2,000 years ago at Pentecost, not birthed Acts 2:1-4
4. Life begins at conception, not birth Matt 1:20, Acts 2:1-4
5. The body has been in gestation for 2,000 years up until now Acts 2:24 (agony of death/childbirth), Rom 8:22-23
6. Each time a person gets saved, they get put into the body of Christ Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30
7. The birth of the body is next, through rapture event 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5
8. John uses "teknon" (the church) once in Rev 12:4 and once in Rev 12:5
9. The body of Christ is raptured before the dragon devours us, Rev 12:4-5

Be reminded of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 Paul understood the misunderstanding the Thessalonian s had with his first letter. Much as it is today. To set the word straight he wrote this second letter. Read it with understanding.

2 Thess 2:3 is actually referring to rapture. If you read it in context, he sets the stage for rapture in 1 Thess 2:11-20, 1 Thess 4:13-17 and 1 Thess 5:1-14. Also notice the word "first" in the Greek text here..

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (rapture) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Heb 13:8]

But it doesn't say they go to heaven and nowhere else is that idea in the Bible. In fact many verses prove such an idea is impossible.

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman (Israel) clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She (Israel) was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon (Satan) with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon (Satan) stood in front of the woman (Israel) who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon the church) the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

 

[keras]

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman (Israel) clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She (Israel) was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon (Satan) with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon (Satan) stood in front of the woman (Israel) who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon the church) the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

The word 'teknon' simply means 'child' and it is plainly referring to the male child in the same verse, who is Jesus. You are simply assuming that Church is meant, to suit your rapture belief.
Jesus was taken to heaven at His Ascension. Making teknon mean the Church and thinking they go to heaven, is quite wrong, proved by how what happens to God's people is described in the rest of Rev 12. They are divided into 2 groups: one taken to a place of safety, Rev 12:14 and the other left in the holy Land. Rev 12:17 Those 2 groups are described in Daniel 11:32 and also mentioned in Zechariah 14:2
Jesus clearly stated in many scriptures, that it is impossible for humans to go to heaven. Why believe the rapture lie?

 

[buddyt]

Heb13:8
Why do you twist the scriptures ? And why do you continue to ignore Ezekiel 13:20. All of this discussion can be avoided by simply reading the word of God. He clearly tells us to avoid this fly away thing .You can twist all the verses you wish but this one is so clear it just gets put aside. It seems every time I have asked those who follow this rapture belief about Ezekiel 13:20 it never get attention. And at present it hasn't yet.

 

[Glen55]

I agree that there s a rapture, but post trib, at the second coming. But you and I differ on so many other issues you mentioned, it would be impossible for me to take on each issue. The 7 year trib...mid-trib abomination...and all the associated appendages and consequences....sorry, just too tiring even contemplating such a wide ranging discussion.

It happens every time a divine seed that descended/fell from heaven leaves the physical body/tomb/field to ascend back to where it came, the prodigal son was considered dead/slave Galatians 4:1 until he regained memory of where he came from, tribulation is a valley we all walk through Psalm 23 to reach the place of rest 1Cor 13:-1, where we grasp the I AM in all of us, the mystery of Christ in you.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Do you know when a thief will come ? And why do you ignore Gods word as it is written ? I'm not trying to argue with anyone here but I can't help but ask these questions.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

I submit that the mark of the beast of this coming new world order will be the biochip that can be implanted under the skin in the hand or forehead in order to buy & sell in order to survive in that new world order. It is in use now in Europe to buy & sell, but it is not the mark of the beast yet because that is not the only means to buy and sell currently.

If we consider how bad the great tribulation will be when to survive in that new world order, they have to have the mark of the beast to buy and sell as that will be the only means to buy and sell to survive in that new world order, then how can Jesus's warning apply to believers in being ready in that time period when the description of the times that Jesus is warning them in is hardly indicative of the times of the great tribulation?

In Luke 14:15-24, we see a parable of the King's Supper in how those invited were making excuses not to come for the cares of this life. Think about this. How can a believer have purchased a property or a team of oxen that he wants to check out and thus excusing himself from attending when he has to have the mark of the beast to buy and sell? He would not even be invited to the supper. No way, since all those with the mark are destined for the lake of fire. So it would be a moot point for Jesus to be talking to those with the mark of the beast as if they were invited which they were not.

In Luke 17:26-32, Jesus warned about being like Lot's wife; loving this life more that she would not want to leave it. Now discern this. How can the oppressive persecuting atmosphere of the great tribulation would tempt any believer to love that life more to not come when He appears? Unrealistic.

Jesus warned again how the cares of this life can be a snare to the believers in the times before He appears in Luke 21:33-36. Read the other snares for the believers that cannot be a snare for them during the great tribulation.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Escape?

In the address to the church at Philadelphia in the Book of Revelation, there was a promise to keep them from the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth.

In the address to the church at Thyatira in the Book of Revelation, there was a warning to repent of their spiritual fornication or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation.

Jesus is warning all believers including His disciples to be ready by preparing themselves with His help to be found abiding in Him or else in Luke 12:40-49. That "or else" is to be cut off, and have their portion with unbelievers, and yet they are still called His servants of those wayward & unrepentant saints that have gotten left behind at the pre trib rapture event as they will be receiving stripes as they are still His ervants.

After the rapture, that fire will come as foretold in Luke 12:49. That fire which will burn one third of the earth, will set up the new world order and the coming great tribulation of that mark of the beast system. After the rapture, the everlasting gospel will be preached everywhere so that every one will know the gospel; and then destruction will come; as given in detail of the fall of Babylon in Revelation 18th chapter, and then the 3rd angel will give the warning to all so that it is very fresh in their minds after that calamity of fire, that to receive the mark of the beast is eternal damnation to the lake of fire. That is the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth.

1 Peter 4:17-19 testify that God will be judging His House first. We can entrust Him to the keeping of their souls while they suffer the great tribulation of those saints left behind and new believers as well.

Why does this have to happen? The falling away from the faith requires Him to address and judge His House first, before judging the world when He comes back with the saints to do battle at Jerusalem. Jesus will excommunicate those not found abiding in Him but are in iniquity.

1 Corinthians 5th chapter testifies to excommunication from the assembly of those not abiding in Him to give them unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may be saved in the day of Christ Jesus. Paul instructs not to eat with any unrepentant believer living in sin or have gone astray. That will be the same for when the Bridegroom comes for the abiding bride of Christ to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven.

The one thing that post tribbers overlook is that if no one knows the time, how is it that the devil knows when to gather the remaining of the world's armies at Jerusalem to do battle with the Lord at His coming with the saints? Zechariah 14:1-5 testify that Jesus touched down with the saints on the Mount of Olives, and so He is not in the air when He defeats Satan and the world's armies.

In Revelation 20, Satan has been defeated and cast into the pit for a thousand years and that is when those saints having gone through the great tribulation were resurrected before the rest of the dead were to be resurrected later on. So they were not a part of the saints that came back with the Lord at the end of the great tribulation for Jesus was already on earth and will be on earth when they are to be resurrected, and not meeting Him in the air. If you need more explanation about the "first resurrection" is not actually meaning the first one.. go to this thread at this link below:

Post-Tribber's First Resurrection Explained

I believe the pre trib rapture are Christ's the firstfruits and the post tribbers are they that be Christ's at His coming. Scripture is there to support this which is why we are called to be ready by Him as only He can help us discern and be found abiding in Him & His words as kept in the KJV to be ready to go as He will deliver us from all evil works and preserve us unto His heavenly kingdom, but the race must be run by faith in Jesus Christ or else.

There is more than the loss of rewards of crowns that are at stake. Being a castaway; excommunicated from the Marriage Supper is the big one.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Heb 13:8]

The word 'teknon' simply means 'child' and it is plainly referring to the male child in the same verse, who is Jesus.

Hi keras,

Teknon is a corporate word describing a group of people, huios is a singular word. Rev 12:1-5 is in regards to three corporate bodies; the red dragon (antichrist system), Israel and the church.

If John wanted to incorporate Jesus only into Rev 12:1-5 he would of used huios all three times but he didn't. Instead he is connecting the head (Jesus Christ) with the body (the church) through rapture. Read Col 1:18..

Also, Rev 12:1-5 takes place in the heavens where the sun, moon, stars and planets reside. Stellarium is a star tracking software. So why can't anyone locate this sign in Stellarium 2,000 years ago. Why is it that we can only find it on 9/23/17? Do you have eyes to see and ears to hear? 9/23/17, Rev 12:5, X etc..

Jesus was taken to heaven at His Ascension.

Acts 1:9 uses the word epairó. Epairó and harpazo have two different meanings and exegesis. Jesus wasn't caught up, He was lifted (raised) up because at that point He had defeated the devil. He didn't need to be obtained by robbery because He won. The church however does need to be obtained by robbery, because of the red dragon. We need Jesus help.

epairó
1. to be lifted up, not a rescue
2. Jesus ascended slowly in victory from the devil

harpazo
1. to be snatched away, rescued
2. The church will be snatched away quickly, from red dragon

epairó: to lift up
Original Word: ἐπαίρω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: epairó
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ahee'-ro)
Short Definition: I raise, lift up
Definition: I raise, lift up.

harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Short Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery
Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

keras, Paul and John both teach rapture.

The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away.

Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea, Acts 8:39 and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven, 2 Cor 12:2-4. Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.

Heb13:8, Why do you twist the scriptures ? And why do you continue to ignore Ezekiel 13:20. All of this discussion can be avoided by simply reading the word of God. He clearly tells us to avoid this fly away thing .You can twist all the verses you wish but this one is so clear it just gets put aside. It seems every time I have asked those who follow this rapture belief about Ezekiel 13:20 it never get attention. And at present it hasn't yet.

I don't understand. How does this verse prove rapture is false?

Ezek 13:20 "'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against your magic charms with which you ensnare people like birds and I will tear them from your arms; I will set free the people that you ensnare like birds.

The rapture doesn't ensnare Christians, it sets them free. It's why it's called the blessed hope.

Magic charms?? Not quite. Rev 12:1-5 is astronomy, not astrology. Rev 12 is a part of the Word of God, and the only way to get the attention of every tribe and language and people and nation is in the heavens. The heavens are God's billboard.

Gen 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years.

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

 

[keras]

Teknon is a corporate word describing a group of people, huios is a singular word. Rev 12:1-5 is in regards to three corporate bodies; the red dragon (antichrist system), Israel and the church.

Strongs G5043 Teknon ; from the base of, a child; as produced ; Child, a daughter or a son.
Where did you learn Greek?
Your false belief leads you to compound your errors.

keras, Paul and John both teach rapture.

Where does Paul and John teach a rapture to heaven?
1 Thess 4:15-17 just says those who remain will be transported to where Jesus is and as He has descended from heaven by then, that meeting will be in the earths atmosphere and from there to Jerusalem.

There is plenty of proof refuting the rapture theory. Just because many have accepted that 'nice' idea, doesn't meant it is true. In fact it proves the prophecy of Paul in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, that many will believe fables.
But God does have a fantastic Plan for His people, all who stand firm in their faith during the forthcoming terrible Day of the Lord's wrath.

 

[buddyt]

Heb13:8

Ezekiel 13 if you read this chapter you'll see is all about false teaching. You should get rid of that Bible you have and get one that has the word of God written in it. Verse 20 has nothing to say about birds. I also had an NIV that this was written in. At present it's in the trash. You need to know what the scriptures really say. KJV has what is written. Verse 20 reads—Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold I am against your pillows wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly and I will tear them from your arms and will let the souls go even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. If you start around verse 18 and read through 21 you know what he is saying. God tells us he's not going to hold it against those who have been thought this lie. But to spread the lie he tells us he is not happy with those how do so.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Strongs G5043 Teknon ; from the base of, a child; as produced ; Child, a daughter or a son.

1 Thess 5:5 For you are all sons (huios) of the light and sons (huios) of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

Rev 2:26-27 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’b —just as I have received authority from my Father.

Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

Isa 66:7-8 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.

Allusion to Isaiah 66:7-8. The use of the neuter adjective arsen (male) modifying the masculine noun huios (son) and the image of Israel giving birth points careful readers back to Isaiah 66:7–8, where we read in the Septuagint (Greek version of the Old Testament): “Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy (arsen). Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her children.” The image is parallel in Revelation, and John explicitly breaks the rules of Greek grammar (modifying the masculine “son” with the neuter “male”) to point us back to this passage in Isaiah 66. The child in both cases is corporate, not individual.

Symbolic Background of Daniel 7. I think John uses the term huios (son) in Revelation 12:5 to connect us to the vision of the “Son of Man” in Daniel 7:13–14, which is interpreted corporately as the Messiah and His saints in 7:18; 26–27. John uses the term “son” in Revelation 12:5, literally “she gave birth to a son, a male,” not the term “child,” as most translations render it. Most people miss that the “Son of Man” in Daniel 7 is interpreted by the angel corporately, which fits well with Revelation 12:5’s “male son” interpreted corporately as the body of Christ. Also, the image of the seven heads and ten horns of the dragon symbol earlier in this vision already pointed us back to Daniel 7, which seems to stand behind this vision of Revelation 12.

The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium - UNSEALED - World News | Christian News | Prophecy Updates

Ezekiel 13 if you read this chapter you'll see is all about false teaching.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Strongs G5043 Teknon ; from the base of, a child; as produced ; Child, a daughter or a son.
Where did you learn Greek?
Your false belief leads you to compound your errors.

Also, Rev 12:1-5 takes place in the heavens where the sun, moon, stars and planets reside. Stellarium is a star tracking software. So why can't anyone locate this sign in Stellarium 2,000 years ago. Why is it that we can only find it on 9/23/17? Do you have eyes to see and ears to hear?

 

[keras]

Also, Rev 12:1-5 takes place in the heavens where the sun, moon, stars and planets reside. Stellarium is a star tracking software. So why can't anyone locate this sign in Stellarium 2,000 years ago. Why is it that we can only find it on 9/23/17? Do you have eyes to see and ears to hear?

Heb, I agree that September 21-23 will be a significant time.
Where you and I disagree, is what will happen on that Appointed Day. Habakkuk 2:3-4, Psalms 75:2-3, Acts 17:31

 

[Heb 13:8]

Heb, I agree that September 21-23 will be a significant time.
Where you and I disagree, is what will happen on that Appointed Day. Habakkuk 2:3-4, Psalms 75:2-3, Acts 17:31

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[ScottA]

Sorry to repeat myself:

This is such a crazy topic...

The scriptures clearly state that there is no grand group resurrection, but rather the coming of "each one in his own order." Yet, being such creatures and prisoners of time, we have a need to fit the scriptures into some ridiculous timeline. None seem to consider the reality of time verses the timeless nature of God. That regardless of when we exit time - we shall all arrive at once. Just as it was when we came into the world...each in our own time, we came out of the timeless nature of God.

 

[Heb 13:8]

The scriptures clearly state that there is no grand group resurrection

1 Thess 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.