Reconciling women may pray or prophecy with head coverings and must be silent in an assembly of the

[carlos123]

I was discussing women being silent in a church assembly with some other Christians recently and one of them brought up what seemed like an irreconcilable contradiction.

All verses below are quoted from the NASB (New American Standard Bible).

1 Cor 11:5 says "...every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head...". Obviously praying or prophecying involves speaking.

1 Cor 14:34 says "...The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak...".

How does one reconcile on the one hand being able speak (to pray and prophecy) and not being allowed to speak?

I did not know how to answer that and brought it before the Lord and here is the understanding that I believe He gave me. An understanding that for the first time ever allows me to reconcile these two snippets of teaching perfectly.

I offer it as both something for you all to prayerfully consider and also to allow the Lord to give me input from anyone who cares to give it to allow me to achieve a still more perfect understanding on the issues covered in 1 Corinthians.

But...before you give me input please take into account that I do not want to engage in the usual Christian baloney that so often passes for discussion. What I mean is discussion that revolves around little more than personal opinion, conjecture, assumptions about the text, about what Paul must have meant (but did not say in the text), and otherwise.

If we stick to what is written and to a discussion of what is actually said and what Paul meant to say in the plain and most obvious meaning of the words he used (barring any definite and clear reason to believe otherwise) then I believe we can have a wonderful discussion.

Otherwise this thread will disintegrate into a free for all where anything goes (what I call the baloney) as so often happens when controversial topics are brought up in Christian forums and any discussion will be fruitless and a waste.

I could care less if anyone here thinks I am a woman hater, a chauvinist, a Patriarchal wannabe, or what have you. What I care about and what you should care about too is that we be faithful to what is written and that we act on what we understand to do what the Word says.

So with that said let me share what the Lord laid on my heart a few days ago about how to reconcile these two passages.

----------------------------------

The context of Paul's instructions are key.

For example in 1 Cor 14:35 women are allowed to ask whatever they want of their husbands whereas in 1 Cor 14:34 women are not allowed to speak. Why are they allowed to speak in the one verse but not allowed to speak in the other?

Because the context changes. Paul's instruction allowing women to ask whatever they want of their husbands are to be applied in the context of the home. They can ask whatever they want of their husbands at home. Paul's instruction about women not being allowed to speak on the other hand is to be applied in the context of an assembly of the church.

1 Cor 14:19 - "...however, in the church..."
1 Cor 14:23 - "Therefore if the whole church assembles together..."
1 Cor 14:26 - "...When you assemble..."

Now let's look at 1 Cor 11:5 and whatever context might pertain to those instructions.

In many circles the instructions about head coverings are assumed to be an assembly of the church. Yet when I asked the Lord about the context I came to realize that the context there is not clear at all.

It simply does not say.

Paul praises the Corinthians for holding on to traditions that he previously taught them (1 Cor 11:2) and then immediately goes into teaching about head coverings.

The first time a context is even mentioned is in 1 Cor 1:17 and 18 which says...

"But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you;"

A church assembling together again but is that context tied to the instructions about head coverings?

The Amplified Bible puts it this way...

"But in what I instruct [you] next I do not commend [you], because when you meet together, it is not for the better but for the worse. For in the first place, when you assemble as a congregation, I hear that there are cliques (divisions and factions) among you; and I in part believe it..."

According to the Amplified Bible the instructions that Paul attaches to the context of a church assembly are those instructions which he is about to talk about NOT those on head coverings that he just finished instructing them about!

Here is what I believe to be a correct interpretation of of how 1 Cor 11 and 1 Cor 14 fit together.

Head coverings are to be understood as general instructions to Christians in the church. Not as instructions for how they ought to be in an assembly of the church but in general as to how they ought to be overall.

Women in general are to wear a head covering when they pray or prophesy and men not.

In part because of the angels (1 Cor 11:10). Angels are never not present (which would tie into the general context).

Whereas the instructions about women being silent in an assembly of the church in 1 Cor 14:34 and not speaking out in a prophetic utterance or other gift that expresses itself through speaking are attached to the context of an assembly of the church.

This interpretation allows both sets of instructions to perfectly blend together while not discounting or negating what each set says individually about head coverings or women being silent in the church.

A professor at a college might tell his students that they can all contact their friends through their cell phones by text messaging them any time they want but that in the context of his classroom that they must turn off their cell phones.

Women are to wear a head covering any time they pray or prophecy anywhere except in an assembly of the church where they are not allowed to speak prophetically or in any other way which involves expressing a gift of the Spirit through public speaking to the whole church.

If anyone has any thoughts on what I have shared I would appreciate hearing them. Again please stick to what is written and a discussion of what is written and don't go off into left field and wade into assumption, conjecture, or other nonsense.

Carlos

 

[Butch5]

Hi Carlos,

I think you've got this pretty close to what Paul means. Let me suggest a series of audios that go into depth on the issue of the head covering and women being silent in the church. the author deals with the Greek text and makes some interesting observations. Another thing to consider is that the early church did make their women and virgins cover themselves in the service. This would indicate that the women did pray or prophesy in the churches. The entire series is good, however, if you just want the section on the head covering listen to the audios on chapter 11. This author is a very good Bible teacher, his other audios are also excellent.

 

[7angels]

I was discussing women being silent in a church assembly with some other Christians recently and one of them brought up what seemed like an irreconcilable contradiction.

All verses below are quoted from the NASB (New American Standard Bible).

1 Cor 11:5 says "...every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head...". Obviously praying or prophecying involves speaking.

1 Cor 14:34 says "...The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak...".

How does one reconcile on the one hand being able speak (to pray and prophecy) and not being allowed to speak?

I did not know how to answer that and brought it before the Lord and here is the understanding that I believe He gave me. An understanding that for the first time ever allows me to reconcile these two snippets of teaching perfectly.

I offer it as both something for you all to prayerfully consider and also to allow the Lord to give me input from anyone who cares to give it to allow me to achieve a still more perfect understanding on the issues covered in 1 Corinthians.

But...before you give me input please take into account that I do not want to engage in the usual Christian baloney that so often passes for discussion. What I mean is discussion that revolves around little more than personal opinion, conjecture, assumptions about the text, about what Paul must have meant (but did not say in the text), and otherwise.

If we stick to what is written and to a discussion of what is actually said and what Paul meant to say in the plain and most obvious meaning of the words he used (barring any definite and clear reason to believe otherwise) then I believe we can have a wonderful discussion.

Otherwise this thread will disintegrate into a free for all where anything goes (what I call the baloney) as so often happens when controversial topics are brought up in Christian forums and any discussion will be fruitless and a waste.

I could care less if anyone here thinks I am a woman hater, a chauvinist, a Patriarchal wannabe, or what have you. What I care about and what you should care about too is that we be faithful to what is written and that we act on what we understand to do what the Word says.

So with that said let me share what the Lord laid on my heart a few days ago about how to reconcile these two passages.

----------------------------------

The context of Paul's instructions are key.

For example in 1 Cor 14:35 women are allowed to ask whatever they want of their husbands whereas in 1 Cor 14:34 women are not allowed to speak. Why are they allowed to speak in the one verse but not allowed to speak in the other?

Because the context changes. Paul's instruction allowing women to ask whatever they want of their husbands are to be applied in the context of the home. They can ask whatever they want of their husbands at home. Paul's instruction about women not being allowed to speak on the other hand is to be applied in the context of an assembly of the church.

1 Cor 14:19 - "...however, in the church..."
1 Cor 14:23 - "Therefore if the whole church assembles together..."
1 Cor 14:26 - "...When you assemble..."

Now let's look at 1 Cor 11:5 and whatever context might pertain to those instructions.

In many circles the instructions about head coverings are assumed to be an assembly of the church. Yet when I asked the Lord about the context I came to realize that the context there is not clear at all.

It simply does not say.

Paul praises the Corinthians for holding on to traditions that he previously taught them (1 Cor 11:2) and then immediately goes into teaching about head coverings.

The first time a context is even mentioned is in 1 Cor 1:17 and 18 which says...

"But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you;"

A church assembling together again but is that context tied to the instructions about head coverings?

The Amplified Bible puts it this way...

"But in what I instruct [you] next I do not commend [you], because when you meet together, it is not for the better but for the worse. For in the first place, when you assemble as a congregation, I hear that there are cliques (divisions and factions) among you; and I in part believe it..."

According to the Amplified Bible the instructions that Paul attaches to the context of a church assembly are those instructions which he is about to talk about NOT those on head coverings that he just finished instructing them about!

Here is what I believe to be a correct interpretation of of how 1 Cor 11 and 1 Cor 14 fit together.

Head coverings are to be understood as general instructions to Christians in the church. Not as instructions for how they ought to be in an assembly of the church but in general as to how they ought to be overall.

Women in general are to wear a head covering when they pray or prophesy and men not.

In part because of the angels (1 Cor 11:10). Angels are never not present (which would tie into the general context).

Whereas the instructions about women being silent in an assembly of the church in 1 Cor 14:34 and not speaking out in a prophetic utterance or other gift that expresses itself through speaking are attached to the context of an assembly of the church.

This interpretation allows both sets of instructions to perfectly blend together while not discounting or negating what each set says individually about head coverings or women being silent in the church.

A professor at a college might tell his students that they can all contact their friends through their cell phones by text messaging them any time they want but that in the context of his classroom that they must turn off their cell phones.

Women are to wear a head covering any time they pray or prophecy anywhere except in an assembly of the church where they are not allowed to speak prophetically or in any other way which involves expressing a gift of the Spirit through public speaking to the whole church.

If anyone has any thoughts on what I have shared I would appreciate hearing them. Again please stick to what is written and a discussion of what is written and don't go off into left field and wade into assumption, conjecture, or other nonsense.

Carlos

ok try this and see what you make of it. the bible teaches there is a difference between man and woman(gen2:18, 22-25). according to the new testament the church are all the bride of Christ(rev 21:9). so from this view point, Christ is the man and the church is the woman. Christ provides for church as man is to provide for woman. everything that man is to do, is also what Jesus is to do for us. everything woman is to do, so is the church to do. the word teaches that Christ is our example(john 13:15-16). but we in our worldly wisdom think that there is a difference between how man is to act with woman and how Christ is to act towards the church. if God is the same yesterday, today, and forever(heb 13:8) then God would not expect us to have different standards then God does himself. this is why God created the law in the old testament and brought grace in the new testament.

God holds everyone to the same standard(rev 15:3). God is a just God(deu 32:4) and God would not hold some people to a different standard then everyone else. so that being said everything God had written in the bible is for everyone. Christ allows his bride to preach in church(acts is full of examples) or even to himself(jos 1:8). God likes having us quote his word back to him. so how can we as men think women can't do something that Christ allows? do we as men think we know what Chist is thinking better then Christ himself.

now i know what the word says about women being silent, and ect. but i think there is a misunderstanding happening. because if there is not then God is holding women to a different standard then the church and that makes God unjust which we know God is not. so what is the explanation? if men and women are created equal then why is one sex being exulted above another? the word also teaches that God does not bless sin. so why then does God bless and anoint many woman pastors? woman pastors are considered unscriptural also but it happens why? the bible is full of stuff that looks like a contradiction but when looked at carefully it can be shown that it is not a contradiction at all but fits into the bible perfectly. the word is to be harmonious and is to fit together perfectly. so if this is true how do we explain the so called contradictions that this topic brings up. what if there were another reason on why it was written this way?

is this what you were hoping to get for a discussion? i look at the bible as a puzzle and when pieces don't fit together then that piece goes somewhere else. we just need to find out where it goes. there are a lot more scriptures you support my claim but i post one only to keep things short. i hope this is not too deep to understand.

God be with us all

 

[THE Gypsy]

The original culture/intent must be kept in mind when considering whether or not this issue is applicable across the generations.

Back in Paul's day, women were mostly disruptive in the church. Corinth had a reputation for sexual immorality and depravity. Women were loud, boisterous and adorned for the purpose of attracting men instead of God. They were also uneducated and had little more to offer than the local gossip. It was more an issue of church members needing to exercise some self control.

There are many scholars that debate the authenticity of v. 34-35. One of the main reasons is the statement "also saith the law", which is cited here, however nowhere does Paul appeal to the "Law" to support Christian behavior. Another reason is that v. 34-35 are a contradiction to v. 5 that states women WILL pray and prophesy...How is that possible if they are to "keep silent"?

You'll also find quite a bit on this here...

http://www.christian...__fromsearch__1

 

[marksman]

Simply put as I understand it. In the synagogue (and maybe the church) men were seperated from women. The end result was that if a woman wanted to know something she would shout across to her husband. Paul was saying this is not acceptable.

On the other hand, it was quite acceptable for a woman to pray or prophesy so there is no conflict between the two.