Repentance Vs. Eternal Security

[Arnie Manitoba]

The purpose of my op was to show that the unconditional guarantee of eternal security is not compatible with biblical repentance.

The idea a Christian can sin, be impenitent of that sin yet be saved is 100% unbiblical.

If a "eternal securest" argues a Christian can sin and not need to repent then he is giving a license to sin which is something many "eternal securests" deny they are doing.

.
Fair enough (and I agree) .... but I have a different consideration (question) .... if I was a (real) Christian I would not steal your horse .... but if I was a horse thief I would try to get out of the charge by saying I am forgiven and should be set free of the charges against me.

hope that makes sense.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

.
Fair enough (and I agree) .... but I have a different consideration (question) .... if I was a (real) Christian I would not steal your horse .... but if I was a horse thief I would try to get out of the charge by saying I am forgiven and should be set free of the charges against me.

hope that makes sense.

Christians do sin, they may not steal horses, but they do commit various sins and the issue is can they remain impenitent of sins they commit and still be saved.

If a Christian did steal a horse, repentance would require he give the horse back or make some kind of resitution. So could a Chrisian get away with stealing a horse, keep the horse and act like no theft ever happen yet still be saved? Or a more common occurance, can a Christian borrow money and not pay it back for whatever reason and still be saved?

 

[williemac]

Repentance does mean for one to put an end to sin. If I were a horse thief and I repented of that sin, repentance in no way means I can continue in that sin of stealing horses.

If I "repented" but continued the sin of stealing horses then I never repented.

Thayer defined repentance as:

--To change one's mind for the better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

--Conduct worthy of a heart change and abhorring sin


You say repentance does not mean to stop sinning. If that's the case, then what change takes place when a person repents of a sin yet continues to commit that sin?

Somehow you can't wrap your head around what I am saying. Repentance is applicable to many things. It simply means to change one's mind. It comes from two Greek words; Meta (change), and Noya (mind). The dictionary is simply using the common application of the word. But the word that is used in scripture is different than our modern use of it. This would be like the word "wicked". It is used as a figure of speech by today's youth, not reflecting its original use.

As I said, it could mean to quit sinning if sin is the context in which it is being used. But it also could mean to change from unbelief to faith.
As well, In the KJV, we can find where God Himself repented concerning the making of man.

Your logic is fine in its context. If I repented of stealing, I would no longer steal. But If I repented of unbelief concerning the gospel, I would be saved. It all depends on the use of the word in its context.

However, we can find places where the word is used with no clear contextual application. For example, God desires all men to come to repentance. Since the passage does not add "from sin", we cannot assume it. You, my friend are assuming it into the passage. Why couldn't it mean repentance from something else, like for example, unbelief, or self righteousness, or pride? In fact, we are told that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud.

When we dig deeper into the relevant issues between God and man, we can find that He is asking for our trust, assuring us that He can be trusted. He is demanding our humility, revealing that salvation cannot or will not be given in any way that will allow for boasting. There is most certainly a repentance necessary in these cases. My whole point is that we are mistaken in automatically applying it to sin.

As matter of fact, if quitting sinning was a requirement for salvation, then we definitely would have place for boasting, wouldn't we? If you don't see this, then maybe you are not looking. Blessings.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Somehow you can't wrap your head around what I am saying. Repentance is applicable to many things. It simply means to change one's mind. It comes from two Greek words; Meta (change), and Noya (mind). The dictionary is simply using the common application of the word. But the word that is used in scripture is different than our modern use of it. This would be like the word "wicked". It is used as a figure of speech by today's youth, not reflecting its original use.

As I said, it could mean to quit sinning if sin is the context in which it is being used. But it also could mean to change from unbelief to faith.
As well, In the KJV, we can find where God Himself repented concerning the making of man.

Your logic is fine in its context. If I repented of stealing, I would no longer steal. But If I repented of unbelief concerning the gospel, I would be saved. It all depends on the use of the word in its context.

However, we can find places where the word is used with no clear contextual application. For example, God desires all men to come to repentance. Since the passage does not add "from sin", we cannot assume it. You, my friend are assuming it into the passage. Why couldn't it mean repentance from something else, like for example, unbelief, or self righteousness, or pride? In fact, we are told that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud.

When we dig deeper into the relevant issues between God and man, we can find that He is asking for our trust, assuring us that He can be trusted. He is demanding our humility, revealing that salvation cannot or will not be given in any way that will allow for boasting. There is most certainly a repentance necessary in these cases. My whole point is that we are mistaken in automatically applying it to sin.

As matter of fact, if quitting sinning was a requirement for salvation, then we definitely would have place for boasting, wouldn't we? If you don't see this, then maybe you are not looking. Blessings.

Repentance is a change of mind that can require a change in one's actions.

My point is that when the Christian does sin, he cannot remain impenitent of his sins and still be saved.

One does repent from sin.

Sin is the reason one is lost, so when the bible says "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" this is repentance from sin, repentance is to keep one from perishing.

So I do not agree with you when you post " For example, God desires all men to come to repentance. Since the passage does not add "from sin", we cannot assume it"


Sin is what causes one to perish (be lost). Since God desires not any to perish (be lost) then man must repent of the sins that is causing him to perish (be lost).

 

[FHII]

You do know that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him be baptized, don't you?

 

[lukethreesix]

God can.

 

[KingJ]

Christians do sin, they may not steal horses, but they do commit various sins and the issue is can they remain impenitent of sins they commit and still be saved.

If a Christian did steal a horse, repentance would require he give the horse back or make some kind of resitution. So could a Chrisian get away with stealing a horse, keep the horse and act like no theft ever happen yet still be saved? Or a more common occurance, can a Christian borrow money and not pay it back for whatever reason and still be saved?

I believe we can shipwreck our salvation, but stealing a horse may not even budge that rudder in the wrong direction ^_^.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I believe we can shipwreck our salvation, but stealing a horse may not even budge that rudder in the wrong direction ^_^.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor 6:9,10

 

[williemac]

Repentance is a change of mind that can require a change in one's actions.

My point is that when the Christian does sin, he cannot remain impenitent of his sins and still be saved.

One does repent from sin.

Sin is the reason one is lost, so when the bible says "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" this is repentance from sin, repentance is to keep one from perishing.

So I do not agree with you when you post " For example, God desires all men to come to repentance. Since the passage does not add "from sin", we cannot assume it"


Sin is what causes one to perish (be lost). Since God desires not any to perish (be lost) then man must repent of the sins that is causing him to perish (be lost).

You are making an assumption. Sin is what causes perishing, for sure. However, Jesus did not say anything about repenting from sin ins John 3:16. This is another place where the word 'perish' can be found. And what was His solution? Faith. While we were yet sinners,Christ dies for the ungodly.

It is possible to train a dog to not bark. However, its offspring may well indeed bark. This is because barking is what dogs do. Similarly, sinning is what humans do. The solution to the sin issue is not mere behavior modification. God is doing away with our species altogether and starting over. If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation. But this is a two step event, the second of which has not yet occurred. It is called the resurrection, where this body of sin will be done away with. In the meantime we have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7).

Sin is what separated the people from God under the old covenant. But they were kept in good standing with Him, not on the basis of their behavior, but by way of the sacrifices. FYI, the sacrifice of Jesus is superior to those ones, not inferior. If His sacrifice cannot keep us in good standing, then we are under a worse covenant, not a better one.

Does God require the believer to repent from sin? Of course. No member of God's creation has ever had permission to sin. This is not negotiable, and I'm not trying to negotiate it. But what we are talking about is the qualification for life. If it is our behavior that qualifies us, then we have a cause for boasting. There's no way around that fact. God has taken both of these off of the table. He gives grace to the humble.

In fact, most people insist that it is by way of the Holy Spirit that we can successfully walk a Godly life. Therefore no one can do it until after he is saved. Therefore the original giving of everlasting life could not have come as a result of one's behavior. Repenting from sin was not part of the original process. Now you are suggesting it gets added after the fact? We begin by faith and are perfected the law? We begin in the Spirit who was given by faith, and are kept by our moral obedience? You are saying that the sacrifice was applied once, but after that we do not have an advocate if we sin? 1John2:1 says otherwise.

Jesus reserves the right to rebuke and chasten His members, which He does and will continue to do. The subject of repentance from sin is valid, but only if it is NOT connected with our salvation. We are saved by way of faith. Life is a free gift. It is given by grace, received by faith. God is the one who is solving the sin issue, not man. I would strongly advise against the attempt to do His job. Lucifer was banished for his determination to take on the status of God. One of the roles of faith is that it keeps us in our place. There is only ONE savior. It s by the obedience of this ONE man, that we are made righteous. Believe it or not.

You said.." My point is that when the Christian does sin, he cannot remain impenitent of his sins and still be saved."
I know this is your point. It is dependent upon the wrong application of repentance. Penitence from sin was not the requirement for salvation in the first place. The change of mind includes the acknowledgment and confession of sin. But in the case of the religious, it may well include changing one's mind about his ability to please God by his own righteousness. If God gives grace to the humble, then the proud need to repent of pride. The unbeliever needs repenting of unbelief. And the believer who is repenting from his sin should do it for the right reasons. The wrong one being to keep his salvation.

 

[FHII]

God can.

Sure, but that might mean that the horse doesn't have free will!

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor 6:9,10

....And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 Cor 6:11, 12

You know, when you post your favorite pet verses, sometimes it may be a good idea to check what verses are around it for context. MANY, MANY of the grace + works crowd love to quote 1 Cor 6:9 - 10... But they just can't bring themselves to continue on to the next two verses. I'd love to discuss this particular chapter, but if you believe in grace alone, you don't need an explanation. If you believe in grace + works (which is not possible: its one or the other because they mix like water and oil, thus you don't believe in grace + works, but rather you believe only in works) you won't accept it anyway.

Stealing a horse is lawful for me. But it's not expedient. I don't have any hey to feed it, it would make a big mess in my garage, they ain't the quietest creatures so someone would hear it and call the cops on me, I don't have a tub big enough to baptize it in, and besides.... My neighbor ain't even got a horse!

I think someone in my neighborhood has a Mustang GT though....

 

[KingJ]

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor 6:9,10

Thinking about it more, I agree with you. A horse is special to someone and we ''keep it'' as you said in the OP. That qualifies as continuing in a mortal sin. Which is definitely pushing the envelope / grieving the Holy Spirit.

 

[lukethreesix]

It took me a long time to get over this "free will" thing. Think of it like this: have you ever played a really good chess player? They set up their pieces in such a way that, even though you can freely move any way you want, you end up moving exactly how they wanted you to. And they always win. God is a master at the chess game of life. He will always win, mans free will is a joke compared to Gods skill at setting up the board for victory.

 

[aspen]

i am wondering......can we make this anymore complicated? Love God, feel His love and go forth to love your neighbor.........that is it, folks

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Sure, but that might mean that the horse doesn't have free will!


....And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 Cor 6:11, 12

You know, when you post your favorite pet verses, sometimes it may be a good idea to check what verses are around it for context. MANY, MANY of the grace + works crowd love to quote 1 Cor 6:9 - 10... But they just can't bring themselves to continue on to the next two verses. I'd love to discuss this particular chapter, but if you believe in grace alone, you don't need an explanation. If you believe in grace + works (which is not possible: its one or the other because they mix like water and oil, thus you don't believe in grace + works, but rather you believe only in works) you won't accept it anyway.

Stealing a horse is lawful for me. But it's not expedient. I don't have any hey to feed it, it would make a big mess in my garage, they ain't the quietest creatures so someone would hear it and call the cops on me, I don't have a tub big enough to baptize it in, and besides.... My neighbor ain't even got a horse!

I think someone in my neighborhood has a Mustang GT though....

The context says such WERE some of you. Paul warns the Corinthians that they could not return to live in those sins Paul mentioned and remain saved saved. Paul reminds them how they WERE then to now being washed, jsutified, sanctified.

Later Paul warns these Coritnhians "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall' 1 Cor 10:12.


Stealing is NEVER lawful. If not, why then does Paul give a list of sins that wll keep one out of the kingdom of heaven?

Thinking about it more, I agree with you. A horse is special to someone and we ''keep it'' as you said in the OP. That qualifies as continuing in a mortal sin. Which is definitely pushing the envelope / grieving the Holy Spirit.

Stealing horses is probably not as prominent today as it was 150 years ago, but the idea is can a Christian sin, live in that sin impenitently and remain saved. What would be prominent today is, for example, in my business I come across many people who say they are Christians yet skip off and do not pay their bill or loans. How can a Christain steal by not paying what he owes yet still be saved?

It took me a long time to get over this "free will" thing. Think of it like this: have you ever played a really good chess player? They set up their pieces in such a way that, even though you can freely move any way you want, you end up moving exactly how they wanted you to. And they always win. God is a master at the chess game of life. He will always win, mans free will is a joke compared to Gods skill at setting up the board for victory.

Man has free will as can be seen in Mt 23:37. God foreknows what "moves" you make but God does not cause/force you to make those moves.

i am wondering......can we make this anymore complicated? Love God, feel His love and go forth to love your neighbor.........that is it, folks

There is nothing complicated, either a Christian repents of his sins else he will be lost.

 

[FHII]

The context says such WERE some of you. Paul warns the Corinthians that they could not return to live in those sins Paul mentioned and remain saved saved. Paul reminds them how they WERE then to now being washed, jsutified, sanctified.

Later Paul warns these Coritnhians "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall' 1 Cor 10:12.


Stealing is NEVER lawful. If not, why then does Paul give a list of sins that wll keep one out of the kingdom of heaven?

Ahhh... The carnal mind... Not understanding the power of grace through faith. Always looking back to works.

Washed, sancitified and justified. When God does that, it's a done deal! When your sins are covered and you been imputed, you aren't guilty. A carnal mind can't understand that, I know....

 

[aspen]

king - you understand the carnel man just like the rest of us. come down out of your ivory tower and love your neigjbor

 

[FHII]

LOL.... Yea King!

 

[KingJ]

king - you understand the carnel man just like the rest of us. come down out of your ivory tower and love your neigjbor

Yes I AM. That is why I know the difference between a mortal and venial sin!!! Stick with your wife when she commits consistent adultery and then speak to me, ok?

I love my neighbour just fine!! It is you who would idly sit and watch your neighbour bring God's wrath upon Himself.

James 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Scripture could simply not be clearer.

 

[FHII]

But King.... I am in the flesh. Paul said I wasn't, but he also said I was. And like Paul, because I am in the flesh, I will continue in mortal sin. I don't condone sin. I do abhor it. But the good that I would do, I do not. But the evil that I would not do, that I do. But it is not I, but sin that dwelleth in my flesh. In my flesh, there is nothing good, according to the Law of Moses, which is good. But I have... hope in that I live by the Royal Law of the inward man: Jesus Christ, the Word of God.

No I'm not out stealing my neighbor's horses! I am not out trying to break any of God's commandments and if someone would send me a week's worth of clothing that were all cotton and not of mixed cloth, I'd wear them! If anyone would come and build a battlement on my apartment building or even send me the supplies to build it myself, I'd do it. I got back problems too. Doesn't keep me down, but if someone would fit my chiropractor bill, I'd get my crooked back straightened. After that, I promise to return all the paper clips I took home from work and I would never, ever say, "I don't have a thing to wear" when my closet is full of clothes. Then would I be holy?

No... I don't need to come off my Ivory tower! You folks need to get on it and quit looking at the flesh! I'm a sinner! I have sinned before, I am sinning right now and I'm going to do a lot more sins in the future! But I have a great lawyer! And advocate who has a heck of a lot of pull with God! He says my sins are covered and not imputed! He says I'm justified! He says he paid the price for ALL of my sins!

I don't have a lot of faith in lawyers... But this one I do.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ahhh... The carnal mind... Not understanding the power of grace through faith. Always looking back to works.

Washed, sancitified and justified. When God does that, it's a done deal! When your sins are covered and you been imputed, you aren't guilty. A carnal mind can't understand that, I know....

Why then in 1 Cor 10:1-12 does Paul warn them about falling?