Repentance Vs. Eternal Security

[KingJ]

But King.... I am in the flesh. Paul said I wasn't, but he also said I was. And like Paul, because I am in the flesh, I will continue in mortal sin. I don't condone sin. I do abhor it. But the good that I would do, I do not. But the evil that I would not do, that I do. But it is not I, but sin that dwelleth in my flesh. In my flesh, there is nothing good, according to the Law of Moses, which is good. But I have... hope :) in that I live by the Royal Law of the inward man: Jesus Christ, the Word of God.

No I'm not out stealing my neighbor's horses! I am not out trying to break any of God's commandments and if someone would send me a week's worth of clothing that were all cotton and not of mixed cloth, I'd wear them! If anyone would come and build a battlement on my apartment building or even send me the supplies to build it myself, I'd do it. I got back problems too. Doesn't keep me down, but if someone would fit my chiropractor bill, I'd get my crooked back straightened. After that, I promise to return all the paper clips I took home from work and I would never, ever say, "I don't have a thing to wear" when my closet is full of clothes. Then would I be holy?

No... I don't need to come off my Ivory tower! You folks need to get on it and quit looking at the flesh! I'm a sinner! I have sinned before, I am sinning right now and I'm going to do a lot more sins in the future! But I have a great lawyer! And advocate who has a heck of a lot of pull with God! He says my sins are covered and not imputed! He says I'm justified! He says he paid the price for ALL of my sins!

I don't have a lot of faith in lawyers... But this one I do.

My friend when we continue in mortal sins we become wolves. We do not remain sheep. We harden our hearts, we do not humble them. Many OSAS would then claim the person was never truly saved. I would say the person made shipwreck.

It is not easy to lose our salvation, but you can't tell me a guy continuing in homosexuality can stand confidently before God. Despite his faith / belief in Jesus...who is clearly not Lord of His life.

God is impartial to the maximum. Which means that if... having our hearts after God's heart (hating sin, loving righteousness and quick to repent) in the OT got us into Abraham's bosom, then we today are certainly not better off. Believing in Jesus is not free ticket to sin. If anything it is the complete opposite. Having touched and tasted of God better then anyone in the OT could, we have even less excuse for continuing in a mortal sin.

Think of marriage. God says 'what He has joined let no man put assunder'' Mark 10:9....yet we know that Jesus, when pushed on the subject conceded that if one should continue in sexual immorality / adultery it is grounds for divorce. God is not contradicting Himself. He always expects His servant / followers to stick at marriage irrespective. But He is not dumb. He knows that if one continues in adultery they have ended the marriage. They are not His servant / follower. They have made shipwreck of the marriage. Note Jesus singles that sin out amongst many others that can take place in a marriage. Hence it is wise to acknowledge the very real risk to our salvation if we continue in a extremity of inner rebellion.

But King.... I am in the flesh. Paul said I wasn't, but he also said I was. And like Paul, because I am in the flesh, I will continue in mortal sin.
I don't have a lot of faith in lawyers... But this one I do.

Paul never continued in mortal sin. That is your assumption.
Paul was certainly tempted to do mortal sins, but actually doing them and then STAYING in them are two very very very different matters. Like I said, talk to me about NOT divorcing / grace for your wife in marriage when she commits continuous adultery!

It took me a long time to get over this "free will" thing. Think of it like this: have you ever played a really good chess player? They set up their pieces in such a way that, even though you can freely move any way you want, you end up moving exactly how they wanted you to. And they always win. God is a master at the chess game of life. He will always win, mans free will is a joke compared to Gods skill at setting up the board for victory.

You are making an incorrect assumption about God. God is impartial Acts 10:34 and James 2. God lives by a moral code far beyond us. He KEEPS to it even to His death!!!. So please do not insult my God. When He tells me He is impartial I believe it to be to the maximum and beyond.

 

[horsecamp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVeXJr-YTq4

1 "As surely as I live," God said,
"I would not see the sinner dead.
I want him turned from error’s ways,
Repentant, living endless days."
2 And so our Lord gave this command:
"Go forth and preach in ev'ry land;
Bestow on all My pard'ning grace
Who will repent and mend their ways.
3 "All those whose sins you thus remit
I truly pardon and acquit,
And those whose sins you will retain
Condemned and guilty shall remain.
4 "What you will bind, that bound shall be;
What you will loose, that shall be free;
To My dear Church the keys are giv'n
To open, close the gates of heav'n."
5 The words which absolution give
Are His who died that we might live;
The minister whom Christ has sent
Is but His humble instrument.
6 When ministers lay on their hands,
Absolved by Christ the sinner stands;
He who by grace the Word believes
The purchase of His blood receives.
7 All praise to You, O Christ, shall be
For absolution full and free,
In which You show Your richest grace;
From false indulgence guard our race.
8 Praise God the Father and the Son
And Holy Spirit, Three in One,
As was, is now, and so shall be
World without end, eternally!

 

[lukethreesix]

KingJ said:
You are making an incorrect assumption about God. God is impartial Acts 10:34 and James 2. God lives by a moral code far beyond us. He KEEPS to it even to His death!!!. So please do not insult my God. When He tells me He is impartial I believe it to be to the maximum and beyond.

Please, what does God sovereign reign over our lives have anything to do with His impartiality?

 

[KingJ]

Impartiality + created hell and heaven = free will

 

[lukethreesix]

?

 

[UppsalaDragby]

?

!

?

Seriously, if God is pulling all the strings then how is he being "impartial"? That just doesn't make sense. Obviously God does certain things in order for us to learn from other peoples mistakes and thereby encourages us to make the correct choices. If we make the same wrong choices that others make then we will suffer just as they did, according to his impartiality. We have a totally free choice to make the wrong decisions. A universe where God is playing chess with himself is a meaningless universe, so why would he create it to be that way? God creating man with a will that is separate from his own is the only thing that makes sense if we take what scripture says into consideration.

 

[lukethreesix]

God making a bunch of lesser gods to battle with and even lose to, that is what makes no sense.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

God making a bunch of lesser gods to battle with and even lose to, that is what makes no sense

That's just silly. If I go and bang my head against a rock despite the fact that God doesn't want me to then how does that make him "lose"? And if he is the one that makes me bang my head against a rock then how does that make him win?

Also, if everything that happens on the earth is God's will, then why did Jesus teach us to pray "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"?

You need to re-think your theology.

 

[lukethreesix]

If people are banging their heads against rocks but God wants to stop them but can't, then yes He loses.
If God is making people bang their heads against rocks then (for most) He's probably doing them a favor.
I don't believe in a god who just tosses the life-jacket out of the boat and "hopes" that "maybe" someone "might" be "willing" to grab it.
The GOD I believe in JUMPS into the water and saves those who are drowning, He doesn't "hope" to save them, or "if" they "let" Him save them. Jesus Saves!
How would you feel about a life-gaurd who has a pool of drowning children and only throws a rope and then crosses his fingers that "whosoever" grabs the rope "might" be saved?

 

[williemac]

If people are banging their heads against rocks but God wants to stop them but can't, then yes He loses.
If God is making people bang their heads against rocks then (for most) He's probably doing them a favor.
I don't believe in a god who just tosses the life-jacket out of the boat and "hopes" that "maybe" someone "might" be "willing" to grab it.
The GOD I believe in JUMPS into the water and saves those who are drowning, He doesn't "hope" to save them, or "if" they "let" Him save them. Jesus Saves!
How would you feel about a life-gaurd who has a pool of drowning children and only throws a rope and then crosses his fingers that "whosoever" grabs the rope "might" be saved?

How do you reconcile this comment with 2Cor.5:20? Whosoever grabs the rope will be saved, for sure. But he still must grab the rope. In that passage we find Him pleading to the world to do so. This is all about relationship. Relationship cannot be forced. It happens between two willing parties. This is the only way it can be satisfying. The ability that allows us to have and give a satisfying relationship with God is also the ability that allows us to refuse it. God knew the downside in giving mankind this ability...often referred to as free will, for lack of a better term. There is a difference between being in charge and in control. Is God merely a control freak? A puppet master? A creator of robots?

 

[lukethreesix]

Let's look at the few verses before 20, starting in 17: "IF any man be IN CHRIST he is a new creation."

Do you see? IF any man (now in this life) be in Christ he is a new creation. We Christians, who have made some choices to follow Jesus and love God can be transformed/rreconcile, being a new creature RIGHT NOW! We don't have to wait for the judgment (vs 10), we can have peace and fellowship with God now before judgment, (the rest unfortunately are going to be judged before they will believe and confess Christ as Lord (Phil 2:9-11). One day "all things" (vs 18, Rev 21:4-5) will be made new, but we can start in the NOW!

Verse 18: Notice Paul uses the word "us" in this verse.."God has reconciled us BY Jesus Christ.
Verse 19: Here Paul uses the word "them"..."God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, NOT imputing THEIR trespasses unto THEM, (but has committed to US the word...) We who are being made a new creature NOW are ambassadors for Christ bringing the word to THEM (In the world) who God has (also) reconciled unto Himself.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

If people are banging their heads against rocks but God wants to stop them but can't, then yes He loses.

So you mean that all the wars, murders, rapes, thefts and other forms of evil in the world are examples of things that God doesn't want to stop?

And according to your theology, is God's will being done on earth as it is in heaven?

the rest unfortunately are going to be judged Before they will Believe and confess Christ as Lord (Phil 2:9-11).

Confession I can understand, but where does "belief" enter the picture?

Are you trying to say that Christians who are persecuted and martyred for their faith can achieve the same results just by waithing for the judgement?

 

[lukethreesix]

I have'nt said anything close to that?
Those who "endure to the end" are part of that "first resurrection" and will be the "bride" of Christ and will reign and judge the nations (even angels!). Those who put their faith in Christ (who do the will of the Father) will be the judges, those who don't will be the judged. How is that "achieving the same results"?

 

[FHII]

Why then in 1 Cor 10:1-12 does Paul warn them about falling?

It wasn't about sins of the flesh. It was about turning from God: a spiritual sin.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

I have'nt said anything close to that?
Those who "endure to the end" are part of that "first resurrection" and will be the "bride" of Christ and will reign and judge the nations (even angels!). Those who put their faith in Christ (who do the will of the Father) will be the judges, those who don't will be the judged. How is that "achieving the same results"?

I realize that wasn't what you said, but was rather an exaggeration to show how your argument doesn't really hold. On the one hand you seem to be saying that if God wants to stop people from doing things against his will but cannot then he loses, and now you are admitting that people are doing things against his will. If someone does something that goes against God's will, which you admit here, then that proves beyond any doubt that he has free will.

As I pointed out to you some days back, your arguments are the result of applying oversimplified logic to scripture, rather than something that is based on sound doctrine. For example, you speak about God not being able to stop people from going against his will, as if it was a simple matter of God using force to fix all our problems, but scripture teaches us that the use of coersion to get people to submit to him is actually against God' will:

"Do not be like the horse or the mule, which have no understanding but must be controlled by bit and bridle or they will not come to you." (Psalm 32:9)

It also teaches us that without faith it is impossible to please him, whereas the doctrine you subscribe to has God making a huge compromise by forcing people through judgement to believe and obey, but using your logic that means that God loses, because obvoiusly anything that deviates from God's will is a "loss".

The only thing that makes sense in the long run is to accept the fact that free will actually exists. If I graciously give someone a responsibility that they themsleves missuse or neglect then it is that person who is the "loser", not me. Why? Because I was not involved in the missuse of the priviliges I have given him. If on the other hand I was the one who caused him to fail, then and only then would your point be valid - I would be a "co-loser" with that person.

God is the saviour of all men in the sense that he has thrown out life-buoys to suffice for all mankind. He was victorious over death and has made his victory available to all men. The fact that men refuse to accept what he has done for them does not nullify his victory over death.

Why does God demand faith of human beings? It is because faith is what is required to regenerate us. Judging someone and putting them into the same fire that was reserved for the devil and his angels neither produces faith nor regenerates anyone, and as all-powerful as God is, there are things he absolutely cannot do without violating his own laws. Otherwise he would just snap his fingers and every form of evil would instantly disappear. We are in a messy situation and it seems to me that since God gave dominion over the earth to mankind at creation, there are matters of jurisdiction that can only be solved by human beings in cooperation with God. That is why we need to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[lukethreesix]

Ok, you said a few things here I want to bring into light.
First, free will: that big truck that pulled out in front of you this morning then went 20 miles an hour under the speed limit all the way to your turn off and made you late for work. Did you will that to happen? Or did God set that truck in front of you to protect you from slamming into a minivan full of kids? Do you have the free will to choose pepsi or coke? yup. Do you have free will to pick which station on the radio you want to listen to? yup. Do you have the free will to choose who or what God decides to do with your life? nope. Did God need your free will for you to be born? Did your free will choose what race, sex, hieght, color, when, where, who you are? nope. If people have free will to choose to be saved, then don't they have the free will to be unsaved? If people freely choose hell, can't theyfreely choose to stop the torture once they've had enough? when does free will stop? and if it stops, then its not really free is it? Yes we have SOME choices to make in this world, but they all are in accordance to Gods plan. God has you right where He wants you. You can run as Jonah did, and if you don't want anything to do with God, like Jonah, you will end up in HELL (Jonah 2:2kjv) and you will be there FOREVER (Jonah 2:6) until you have come to repentance, (like Jonah finally did), and correction has been made, and you "freely" (but sometimes pissed about it (like Jonah was) and follow what God wants you to do (like Jonah finally did). I love this story of Jonah because all of us is going to fulfill God will (like Jonah did), however, it is up to you how long your FOREVER is until you repent and do things Gods way (by your own free will) like Jonah did. But did Jonah really have a choice, after being swzllowed by a whale "forever"? Did Paul really have a choice, after being knocked off his horse and blinded? How free is your free will?

Second, you used the "God just throws us life jackets then hopes for the best" thing again.
No, God jumps in and saves those who are drowning. Period.

Thirdly, you say God can't violate His own laws. I will go along with that:
Exodus 21:33-34, If a man dig a pit and doesn't cover it up, and an ox falls in, the owner of the pit shall make good, he shall purchase the dead ox.
God is the owner and He surely dug a pit in the Garden. Not only did He not cover it, but hired a tempter to lure us into it. We all are now dead ox's and by Gods own law He must make good, which He has by sending Christ to purchase all that fall in. We all belong to God (all souls are mine... Eze 18:4) Gods own law says he must make good and purchase all us dead ox's. And He has. Will Christ not recieve all that he paid such a dear price?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It wasn't about sins of the flesh. It was about turning from God: a spiritual sin.

Sin is sin and they were told to "take heed lest ye fall."

 

[FHII]

I liked you last post, lukethreesix.... I've been in quite a few "free will vs. God's plan" type of discussions before. Those are all good and valid points that I've used as well. I tend to use Paul's story more than Jonah's but that's my preference.

What I liked in what you said is your examples of picking a radio station or drinking coke or pepsi. Those are trivial choices but your point is made. I especially liked the point you made about the slow truck. We are told -- and most people on this board know -- to give thanks in all things. It's absolutely terrible that a slow truck made someone late to work and even worse, if someone is involved in a fender bender or even more serious accident. But did it happen for evil? or do we lay claim to and understand Romans 8:28?

Garth Brooks sang a song called "Unanswered Prayers" and most understand that concept. Most also understand the concept that perhaps things like a flat tire or not getting a job you really wanted or even a guy or girl you really like might actually be a good thing. Well, if you do believe in that, I find it pretty hard to believe that God isn't pulling some strings in your life and thus... God's will isn't winning over your own "free will". Hey.... God knows more about our life than we do! There are things happening in our life that we don't know about and never will! And Praise God for it.

The big arguement that people who like the "free will" concept is that "We are not robots! God doesn't want robots!" No, we aren't robots, but we are his sheep. Jesus didn't say, "I invite and want and hope my sheep will hear my voice, and follow me, and I hope that no man will be able to pluck them out of my hand."

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Ok, you said a few things here I want to bring into light.
First, free will: that big truck that pulled out in front of you this morning then went 20 miles an hour under the speed limit all the way to your turn off and made you late for work. Did you will that to happen? Or did God set that truck in front of you to protect you from slamming into a minivan full of kids? Do you have the free will to choose pepsi or coke? yup. Do you have free will to pick which station on the radio you want to listen to? yup. Do you have the free will to choose who or what God decides to do with your life? nope. Did God need your free will for you to be born? Did your free will choose what race, sex, hieght, color, when, where, who you are? nope. If people have free will to choose to be saved, then don't they have the free will to be unsaved? If people freely choose hell, can't theyfreely choose to stop the torture once they've had enough? when does free will stop? and if it stops, then its not really free is it? Yes we have SOME choices to make in this world, but they all are in accordance to Gods plan. God has you right where He wants you. You can run as Jonah did, and if you don't want anything to do with God, like Jonah, you will end up in HELL (Jonah 2:2kjv) and you will be there FOREVER (Jonah 2:6) until you have come to repentance, (like Jonah finally did), and correction has been made, and you "freely" (but sometimes pissed about it (like Jonah was) and follow what God wants you to do (like Jonah finally did). I love this story of Jonah because all of us is going to fulfill God will (like Jonah did), however, it is up to you how long your FOREVER is until you repent and do things Gods way (by your own free will) like Jonah did. But did Jonah really have a choice, after being swzllowed by a whale "forever"? Did Paul really have a choice, after being knocked off his horse and blinded? How free is your free will?

I think you are confusing specific examples where God intervenes in the lives of certain people to make his will known to mankind, with what he does with everyone in general. You cannot simply assume that since God makes choices and uses people such as Jonah and Paul to do certain things that that is always the pattern being used. Paul said himself that he was an "abnormally born" apostle. The choice he had to make was made easier by the fact that he was made blind in order that he could see. But is that the norm? No. Paul was heavily persecuted for the rest of his life and had to endure tests of faith and perserverence that most of us don't even come close to experiencing in our lives.

You hold up these examples to support the claim that our choices are "in accordance with God's plan". But not only does this contradict scripture which clearly shows us that there are things that stand in opposition to God's will, you also ONLY use examples that clearly ARE a part of God's plan to prove your point. What about rapists and child molesters? Are they making choices in accordance with God's plan? Or what about the people who offered their own children to heathen Gods:

"They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind. (Jer 19:5)

Also God's plan?

Second, you used the "God just throws us life jackets then hopes for the best" thing again.
No, God jumps in and saves those who are drowning. Period.

God sent his son to this earth and delivered him into the hands of the bloodthirsty and ungodly. Are you saying he did too little?

"For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe." (1 Cor 1:21)

Now does this verse say that God saves those who are drowning, or those who believe?

Thirdly, you say God can't violate His own laws. I will go along with that:
Exodus 21:33-34, If a man dig a pit and doesn't cover it up, and an ox falls in, the owner of the pit shall make good, he shall purchase the dead ox.
God is the owner and He surely dug a pit in the Garden. Not only did He not cover it, but hired a tempter to lure us into it. We all are now dead ox's and by Gods own law He must make good, which He has by sending Christ to purchase all that fall in. We all belong to God (all souls are mine... Eze 18:4) Gods own law says he must make good and purchase all us dead ox's. And He has. Will Christ not reice all that paid such a dear price?

That's not a bad argument. However, since "making good" in this example is simply paying the price of the ox to the owner.. who also happens to be God, all it proves is that God owns a dead ox.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ok, you said a few things here I want to bring into light.
First, free will: that big truck that pulled out in front of you this morning then went 20 miles an hour under the speed limit all the way to your turn off and made you late for work. Did you will that to happen? Or did God set that truck in front of you to protect you from slamming into a minivan full of kids? Do you have the free will to choose pepsi or coke? yup. Do you have free will to pick which station on the radio you want to listen to? yup. Do you have the free will to choose who or what God decides to do with your life? nope. Did God need your free will for you to be born? Did your free will choose what race, sex, hieght, color, when, where, who you are? nope. If people have free will to choose to be saved, then don't they have the free will to be unsaved? If people freely choose hell, can't theyfreely choose to stop the torture once they've had enough? when does free will stop? and if it stops, then its not really free is it? Yes we have SOME choices to make in this world, but they all are in accordance to Gods plan. God has you right where He wants you. You can run as Jonah did, and if you don't want anything to do with God, like Jonah, you will end up in HELL (Jonah 2:2kjv) and you will be there FOREVER (Jonah 2:6) until you have come to repentance, (like Jonah finally did), and correction has been made, and you "freely" (but sometimes pissed about it (like Jonah was) and follow what God wants you to do (like Jonah finally did). I love this story of Jonah because all of us is going to fulfill God will (like Jonah did), however, it is up to you how long your FOREVER is until you repent and do things Gods way (by your own free will) like Jonah did. But did Jonah really have a choice, after being swzllowed by a whale "forever"? Did Paul really have a choice, after being knocked off his horse and blinded? How free is your free will?

Second, you used the "God just throws us life jackets then hopes for the best" thing again.
No, God jumps in and saves those who are drowning. Period.

Thirdly, you say God can't violate His own laws. I will go along with that:
Exodus 21:33-34, If a man dig a pit and doesn't cover it up, and an ox falls in, the owner of the pit shall make good, he shall purchase the dead ox.
God is the owner and He surely dug a pit in the Garden. Not only did He not cover it, but hired a tempter to lure us into it. We all are now dead ox's and by Gods own law He must make good, which He has by sending Christ to purchase all that fall in. We all belong to God (all souls are mine... Eze 18:4) Gods own law says he must make good and purchase all us dead ox's. And He has. Will Christ not recieve all that he paid such a dear price?

If a Christian stole a horse, did he steal of of his own free will or did God make him/force him steal it?

If man has no free will then God force him to steal it, making God a thief yet man has to repent of a sin God committed?????