Repentance Vs. Eternal Security

[Poppin]

John said sin is transgression of the law, so when one is conceived what transgression did that newly conceived person commit making him a sinner?


What I have posted from Rom 7:8,9 speaks of an age of accountability. There is no certain age for people mature at diffeent rates/time. In this context Paul said "For without the law sin was dead" BUt then Paul said "For I was alive without the law once..." These two sataements can only means there was once a time in Pauls' life when sin was dead to him, sin had no power over him for he was "without law". This would have been when Paul was aninfant/child and not accountable t God's law. Yet as Paul matured and learned right from wrong (Ias 7:15,16) then sin came alive in him. So sin was something that came later in his life not at conception.

Hello Ernest T. Bass,
So your position is roughly that, regardless of one's age, as long as he never hears The Mosaic Law, he can not be judged as a sinner?
Is this the logical conclusion of it?

Your claim is Rom 7:8,9 speaks of an age of accountability?
I will take another look.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

Poppin.

Paul said he was blameless according to the Law....do you know how he could say that while being directly involved in the murder of Christians?

Philippians 3
5circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

 

[BornAgain]

Greetings sister BornAgain, :)

How?

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Hi,

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The Gentiles and the Jews are saved by grace, the favor and mercy of God. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, saving both by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith for those accept his salvation. On the part of God salvation is by grace, on the part of man it is through faith. God gives man the ability to believe, reveals to him the things to believe, and plenty of testimony to give the faith required. (John 20:30, 31; Mark 16:15, 16; Rom. 1:16; Acts 11:14; 16:14, 15, 30-33; 18:8.)

and that not of yourselves,—The salvation is not of man, nor was it prepared or earned by man.

if is the gift of God;-It was prepared and bestowed on man by God. It is obtained by entering into Christ according to His directions.



Colossians 2
11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions

12 having been buried with him in baptism, The putting off the body of the flesh or the true spiritual circumcision was effected by being buried with him in baptism. This means that they were dead to sin through faith in Christ.

wherein ye were also raised with him, They were also raised with him in baptism. In this act of baptism the sins were removed, as by circumcision the flesh was cut off. From the coming up out of the water which is associated with the fact of Christ's resurrection, which is referred to. Christ went down into the grave, but came up again. So the believer is submerged into the waters of baptism. In baptism one is born new.. This new life we get in union with Christ. The working of God is shown in raising Christ from the dead.

through faith in the working of God, They were both buried and raised with Christ in baptism, by the working of faith in God. Baptism means nothing without faith.


Sister, I agree with you that some of our people are being taught error concerning baptism.
These two passages make it clear. The Spirit will lead us all to obey the Gospel (soon), we pray.
Amen.
Bless you
Poppin

Hi
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The Gentiles and the Jews are saved by grace, the favor and mercy of God. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, saving both by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith for those accept his salvation. On the part of God salvation is by grace, on the part of man it is through faith. God gives man the ability to believe, reveals to him the things to believe, and plenty of testimony to give the faith required. (John 20:30, 31; Mark 16:15, 16; Rom. 1:16; Acts 11:14; 16:14, 15, 30-33; 18:8.)

and that not of yourselves,—The salvation is not of man, nor was it prepared or earned by man.

if is the gift of God;-It was prepared and bestowed on man by God. It is obtained by entering into Christ according to His directions.



Colossians 2
11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions


12 having been buried with him in baptism, The putting off the body of the flesh or the true spiritual circumcision was effected by being buried with him in baptism. This means that they were dead to sin through faith in Christ.

wherein ye were also raised with him, They were also raised with him in baptism. In this act of baptism the sins were removed, as by circumcision the flesh was cut off. From the coming up out of the water which is associated with the fact of Christ's resurrection, which is referred to. Christ went down into the grave, but came up again. So the believer is submerged into the waters of baptism. In baptism one is born new.. This new life we get in union with Christ. The working of God is shown in raising Christ from the dead.

through faith in the working of God, They were both buried and raised with Christ in baptism, by the working of faith in God. Baptism means nothing without faith.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hello Ernest T. Bass,
So your position is roughly that, regardless of one's age, as long as he never hears The Mosaic Law, he can not be judged as a sinner?
Is this the logical conclusion of it?

Your claim is Rom 7:8,9 speaks of an age of accountability?
I will take another look.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

Poppin.

Paul said he was blameless according to the Law....do you know how he could say that while being directly involved in the murder of Christians?

Philippians 3
5circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

My point is that everyone is born innocent and not accountable to God's law. When I was born, I was not accountable to God's NT law, yet as I matured and learned right from wrong,then I became accountable and sin came alive in me.

Again, Paul said "For without the law sin was dead" and "For I was alive without the law once" which can only mean there was a time in Paul's life when he was "without law" therfore sin was dead to him,it had no power over him.

ROm 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Death passed upon all men for all have sinned. Paul did not say death passed upon all men for all have inherited Adma's sin.


Phillippians 3:6 Paul was not saying he was perfectly sinless but had a clean record under the OT law. He did all he was suppose to do under the law of Moses. Beofre his conversion, Paul was a Pharisee under the law of Moses and they thought salvation could be merited by keeping the OT law perfectly. Paul is againis saying he did allthat was necessary to be saved under that OT law.

 

[Poppin]

The Gentiles and the Jews are saved by grace, the favor and mercy of God. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, saving both by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith for those accept his salvation. On the part of God salvation is by grace, on the part of man it is through faith.

God gives man the ability to believe, reveals to him the things to believe, and plenty of testimony to give the faith required. (John 20:30, 31; Mark 16:15, 16; Rom. 1:16; Acts 11:14; 16:14, 15, 30-33; 18:8.)

Hi BornAgain.
A few questions:

So would you say (or could we say) the natural (unregenerate) man is unable/or able to believe without God giving him the ability?
Faith comes from hearing the word of God.
Is there any other way a man can believe (pistis)?
Does the man summon pistis on his own; or does it come through the Gospel (the power of God)?
Can any man believe without the Holy Spirit's influence?

Are natural men spiritual (enough) - can they summon faith (pistis) without The Holy Spirit influencing them?:

1 Corinthians 2
13which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Paul says the natural man does not receive (dechomai) the things of the Spirit of God

http://biblehub.com/thayers/1209.htm

because he cannot (dunamai) understand the things taught by the Spirit - he does not have the ability or power.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1410.htm

So I guess we are trying to decide when in the complex working of God in our salvation the natural man becomes able and has the power to apprehend the things of the Spirit.

Poppin.

My point is that everyone is born innocent and not accountable to God's law.

When I was born, I was not accountable to God's NT law, yet as I matured and learned right from wrong,then I became accountable and sin came alive in me.

So, a Muslim or an atheist who has never heard NT law is not accountable.....and sin has not come alive in them?
Perhaps we ought not teach anyone the New Testament Ernest T Bass. Then no one will be "accountable".

You are not clear on where people are "learning" "right from wrong".
According to what standard?
Poppin

ROm 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Death passed upon all men for all have sinned. Paul did not say death passed upon all men for all have inherited Adma's sin.

Have all men inherited a sinful nature?
Why does it say all have sinned?
Is there someone on a desert island who will live forever (no death) because they are not influenced by another sinner; therefore they will never sin?

 

[BornAgain]

Hi Poppin,

Sorry about the previous post, I am learning how to "multi-quote" and the more I tried to fix it, well you can see for yourself. <_<

I will try and answer your questions here...I have to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. If I don't than I will be separated from God for eternity. Jesus taught in John 8:24, “’Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.’” If we do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then what will happen? We will die in our sins.

John 14:6, ’I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Jesus didn't say that “I am a way, a truth, and a life.” Jesus said that He is “the way”. And if He is “the way”, that means He is the only one.

Matthew 7:13-14 teaches that the road to heaven is a very narrow road.

To answer another question, what about those who never heard? People in foreign countries who never had a chance to hear, are they going to be lost? The Bible says in Hebrews 11:6, yes, they will be lost.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 gives us two groups of people who are going to be lost for eternity: Those who do not know God and those who do not obey the Gospel.

Faith is not a blind leap. It is the evidence of things not seen. In 2 Corinthians 5:7, it's talking about walking by something,...faith.

Where does faith come from? Faith does not come from your parents, your grandparents, your preacher, they are not the one who gives you faith.

Romans 10:17: So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. This is the source of faith. We have to go to the word of God in order to walk.

When we study the Bible, we need to be praying for wisdom, but if we do not study our Bible, don't expect to get faith, because that is where faith comes from.

The doctrine of faith only, or faith alone will not save....

One receives the gift of the holy spirit through baptism.

Acts 2:38 (KJV)

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Poppin]

Hi BornAgain :) haha.
I know what you mean about the interface. But this is a very cool site. Still trying to figure it all out, but it's nice and clean.
I like your post, and, again, am a Lutheran. We do believe baptism is essential to salvation (but i still hold out that God is good, concerning those hard circumstances my friend Ernest T Bass is certain God can not deal with ;) ...*waves at Ernest T Bass :) *
Grace and peace to you,
Poppin

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So, a Muslim or an atheist who has never heard NT law is not accountable.....and sin has not come alive in them?
Perhaps we ought not teach anyone the New Testament Ernest T Bass. Then no one will be "accountable".

You are not clear on where people are "learning" "right from wrong".
According to what standard?
Poppin


Have all men inherited a sinful nature?
Why does it say all have sinned?
Is there someone on a desert island who will live forever (no death) because they are not influenced by another sinner; therefore they will never sin?

Muslims, athiests, people in general are lost not because they have not heard the NT gospel but are lost because they sin. Many have heard the gospel but will be lost anyway for they sin for thier unbelief. Infants have no sins to cause them to be lost.

There is a period in everyone's life [infant/child] when they do not know God's law and do not know right from wrong, righteousness from unrighteousness, Isa 7:15,16; Deut 1:39


There is no sinful nature, Gen 4:7

 

[Poppin]

Muslims, athiests, people in general are lost not because they have not heard the NT gospel but are lost because they sin.

There is a period in everyone's life [infant/child] when they do not know God's law and do not know right from wrong, righteousness from unrighteousness, Isa 7:15,16; Deut 1:39


There is no sinful nature, Gen 4:7

Sorry Ernest.
This doesn't line up with anything you have previously said.
If there's no sinful nature, there's a good chance good people will not sin.
I suspect you have never raised children.
Awareness of sin is not when we are accountable to God. WHEN we first sin we are accountable. Whether we KNOW it or not.
If that's not true, nothing else what you say about God can be true.

Muslims, athiests, people in general are lost not because they have not heard the NT gospel but are lost because they sin. Many have heard the gospel but will be lost anyway for they sin for thier unbelief. Infants have no sins to cause them to be lost.

Many have heard the Law & Gospel...but many have not. According to your position that until Paul heard the Law, he had not sinned:

Romans 7:7
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

Must be reconciled with this, Is here Paul speaking of Christian gentiles - or unregenerate gentiles?:

Romans 2
God's Righteous Judgment
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

So, I do not know if you have raised children Ernest T. Bass, but children very early "do wrong". Toddlers and younger will lie; they will have fits of rage and so on. They will hit their siblings or parents or pets. Is this sin (regardless of whether or not they know ANY of God's Law)?

Or is it sin, but not accounted to them due to.....what?
Because they do very early know they are doing wrong - they have taken a toy from a sibling, and hide it and deny they have it, or blame others.
Is this simple human nature manifesting in sin-like ways which are not really sin?
Or is it an inherent inclination to sin (choose to do wrong)? There is far too much unresolved about man's condition from the Pelagian position, imo.
God still required sacrifice to cover unintentional sin
Though I am not particularly interested in the usual debate. I believe when we see the Bible indicate truths from both sides, we are to rest on and accept that BOTH are true for God (in some way we might not understand).
Poppin

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Sorry Ernest.
This doesn't line up with anything you have previously said.
If there's no sinful nature, there's a good chance good people will not sin.
I suspect you have never raised children.
Awareness of sin is not when we are accountable to God. WHEN we first sin we are accountable. Whether we KNOW it or not.
If that's not true, nothing else what you say about God can be true.


Many have heard the Law & Gospel...but many have not. According to your position that until Paul heard the Law, he had not sinned:

Romans 7:7
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

Must be reconciled with this, Is here Paul speaking of Christian gentiles - or unregenerate gentiles?:

Romans 2
God's Righteous Judgment
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

So, I do not know if you have raised children Ernest T. Bass, but children very early "do wrong". Toddlers and younger will lie; they will have fits of rage and so on. They will hit their siblings or parents or pets. Is this sin (regardless of whether or not they know ANY of God's Law)?

Or is it sin, but not accounted to them due to.....what?
Because they do very early know they are doing wrong - they have taken a toy from a sibling, and hide it and deny they have it, or blame others.
Is this simple human nature manifesting in sin-like ways which are not really sin?
Or is it an inherent inclination to sin (choose to do wrong)? There is far too much unresolved about man's condition from the Pelagian position, imo.
God still required sacrifice to cover unintentional sin
Though I am not particularly interested in the usual debate. I believe when we see the Bible indicate truths from both sides, we are to rest on and accept that BOTH are true for God (in some way we might not understand).
Poppin

Men sin for they choose to sin, not because of any depaved nature. Gen 4:7 God shows thru Cain that Cain had the ablity to choose to do well, Cain was not only able to do wrong. God even tells Cain to rule over sin for Cain was not toallydepraved but choose to do well.


To be accountable to God's law one has to know the difference between right and wrong which is something infants/shildren do not know, Isa 7:15,16; Deut 1:39. Paul even said the law was dead to him once in his life meaning sin was dead to him, he was not accountable to law as an infant but it wasn't until he matured and learned right from wrong he became accountable. Once people mature and know right from wrong then they are accountable to God's law, whether they know what God's NT law says or not.


You posted "Many have heard the Law & Gospel...but many have not. According to your position that until Paul heard the Law, he had not sinned:"

But I have never said this. Paul as an infant/child said sin was dead to him for he was not accountable to God's law. As Paul matured and learned right from wrong then sin came alive in him. A person can know right from wrong and be sinners yet not know God's NT law. Law defines what sin is and if there were no law then there would be no sin..."for where no law is, there is no transgression" Rom 4:15. So when a person matures and learns right from wrong, ignorance of God's law does not keep them from becoming sinners.


Infants and chldren do not do wrong.

1) original sin tries to twist Psa 51:5 in saying infants are conceived sinners. What transgression did a newly conceived fetus commit?

2) Mt 19:14 "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

If children are sinners thenthe kingdom of heaven is made up of sinners..which it is not.

3) I posted two verses that say children do not know right from wrong,one talking about Christ. Isa 7:15,16 and Deut 1:39. Is the ibble wrong saying children do not know right from worng. If youare right then Christ must have sinned as a child. The Hebrew writer says "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren" Heb 2:17.

4) children at an early age misbehave but they does not mean they are doing wrong, for they do not understand the concept of right and wrong. It is something that must be learned. At an early age, to them everything is either good and bad (not right and wrong). At this early age children more so imitate what they see/hear. If a young child swears it is not because the child understands what he is doing he is simply imitating what he sees/hears others do. As they mature a little more they begin to learn some things are intrinsically good and others bad, that is, things are not good just because they like it or bad just because they do not like it. Here they being to learn to follow rules, that something is wrong not just because they do not like it.



Here is something I found online that goes thru the development process. It also needs to be remembered children mature a different rates, some faster or slower than others, so there is no real set age.


http://www.kidsgrowth.com/resources/articledetail.cfm?id=1801


How do children learn what is right and wrong?

• Children do what they see, more than what you say. It is important for you to provide a good model for your child to follow.
  Children pass through different stages of moral development beginning in early childhood and advancing through adulthood.
  Very young children do not really understand the concept of right and wrong. For them, what is "good" is what they like and what is "bad" is what they don't like. Therefore, it is important for adults to provide controls and limits for them. This is especially true for children who have no words to tell themselves, "No, don't pick the flowers."
  At about age 4 or 5, children begin to label or identify things that are "good" and "bad." They can talk about them, but the true understanding is still outside of their own feeling. Children of this age follow rules only because they are told to do so. That is why it is very important for adults to provide consistent and gentle guidance. As a child uses words to describe self-controlling behaviors, such as "No. No. Don't touch," they begin to internalize, or understand, what those words mean.
  By age 7 or 8, children's understanding of right and wrong seems to be based more on fear of being punished. For example, a child might feel that the reason people do not steal is that they will be caught by the police. Generally, children still have not developed true moral values. Again, it is important for adults to help children understand what is right and wrong, and why.
  By age 9, children are beginning to understand the Golden Rule: Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. This is the beginning of a true understanding of right and wrong, of guilt and values.
  Help children develop self-discipline during the pre-school years through a lot of adult help.
  Remind your pre-school child of the rules beforehand.
  If your child continues to break a rule, use a problem-solving approach in which the child helps decide what is the best way to keep from breaking the rule. A critical aspect of self-discipline is a sense of personal responsibility.
  Remember that all young children want to do the right thing and gain approval of their parents. Help them know what that is so that they feel good about themselves.

 

[Poppin]

Hello Ernest T.Bass.
You provided a secular assessment of human nature.

"Remember that all young children want to do the right thing and gain approval of their parents. Help them know what that is so that they feel good about themselves."

This is moral relativism, since there is no absolute standard of morality (according to God set forth). what is "the right thing", and according to whom? And they have it as kids supposedly wanting to do right - for a reason other than inherent absolute morality within themselves.

I noticed they claim children understand the golden rule at about age 9.

If that were true, they would be fulfilling the Law (according to Jesus) who said all the Law hangs on the two great commands - Love God and love neighbor. Do you (this is a rhetorical question, please don't answer), as a grown man love God and neighbor as you ought to? Enough to be pleasing to God without Christ's Finished work?
ttyl
Poppin

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hello Ernest T.Bass.
You provided a secular assessment of human nature.

"Remember that all young children want to do the right thing and gain approval of their parents. Help them know what that is so that they feel good about themselves."

This is moral relativism, since there is no absolute standard of morality (according to God set forth). what is "the right thing", and according to whom? And they have it as kids supposedly wanting to do right - for a reason other than inherent absolute morality within themselves.

I noticed they claim children understand the golden rule at about age 9.

If that were true, they would be fulfilling the Law (according to Jesus) who said all the Law hangs on the two great commands - Love God and love neighbor. Do you (this is a rhetorical question, please don't answer), as a grown man love God and neighbor as you ought to? Enough to be pleasing to God without Christ's Finished work?
ttyl
Poppin

Deut 1:39 and Isa 7:15,16 are not "human assessents" but true, biblcal facts from God. It is total depravity that is just a human opinion not found in the bible and all it does is put blame upon God. Total depravity is nothing more than a man-made agenda.

The article gave an accurate assessment as far as I am concerned based upon my own observation and based upon the biblical fact of Deut 1:39 and Isa 7:15,16. Infants are have no language skills nor put together cognitive thoughts in order for them to be depraved. They simply act on instinct..if I am hungry - I cry, if I have a stomach ache - I cry. Not until they can form some cognitive thought they then view everything as good or bad not as right or wrong. Learning the concept of right and wrong is a process, not what one is born knowing


I already pointed that Cain, a grown man had the ability to choose between doing well or not well as God Himself shows in Gen 4:7. Peter's Jewish listeners in Acts 2, the eunuch in Acts 8 the jailer in Acts 16 while all iin a lost, supposedly 'depraved state' according to you, were still able and wanted to know God's will in being saved and desired to obey God's will. Rom 7:14ff is suppose to be "proof text" for total depravity but that passages speaks of one that wants to do good, verse 15, 18,19. one who delights in the law of God, v22 .

 

[Poppin]

Deut 1:39 and Isa 7:15,16 are not "human assessents" but true, biblcal facts from God. It is total depravity that is just a human opinion not found in the bible and all it does is put blame upon God. Total depravity is nothing more than a man-made agenda.

The article gave an accurate assessment as far as I am concerned based upon my own observation and based upon the biblical fact of Deut 1:39 and Isa 7:15,16. Infants are have no language skills nor put together cognitive thoughts in order for them to be depraved. They simply act on instinct..if I am hungry - I cry, if I have a stomach ache - I cry. Not until they can form some cognitive thought they then view everything as good or bad not as right or wrong. Learning the concept of right and wrong is a process, not what one is born knowing


I already pointed that Cain, a grown man had the ability to choose between doing well or not well as God Himself shows in Gen 4:7. Peter's Jewish listeners in Acts 2, the eunuch in Acts 8 the jailer in Acts 16 while all iin a lost, supposedly 'depraved state' according to you, were still able and wanted to know God's will in being saved and desired to obey God's will. Rom 7:14ff is suppose to be "proof text" for total depravity but that passages speaks of one that wants to do good, verse 15, 18,19. one who delights in the law of God, v22 .

Hello Ernest,
I suppose I'll bow out of this discussion for awhile. I have not brought up Total Depravity, and have repeatedly said i am not a Calvinist.
I have never said men are not capable of doing relative "good". My point has been are you capable of doing "good enough" (God's Standards)?
My point is the universality of sin. I asked if you have ever met or heard of anyone throughout history who was without sin. Mary (a young virgin - do we know her age?) knew she needed a Redeemer. The Bible says all men do.
Again, I have not brought up nor suggested TULIP.
So i suspect you are not really engaging with me (what I am posting) but rather with Calvin.
For as many passages as you can quote concerning people who knew or know God doing righteously, there are as many which those who do not know God do not do good. And as many epistles as we have, they all exhort and warn Christians about sin.
John said if we (himself included) claim to be without sin, there is no truth (none) in us.
I am not yet glorified.

Thank you for the discussion, though.
Poppin.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hello Ernest,
I suppose I'll bow out of this discussion for awhile. I have not brought up Total Depravity, and have repeatedly said i am not a Calvinist.
I have never said men are not capable of doing relative "good". My point has been are you capable of doing "good enough" (God's Standards)?
My point is the universality of sin. I asked if you have ever met or heard of anyone throughout history who was without sin. Mary (a young virgin - do we know her age?) knew she needed a Redeemer. The Bible says all men do.
Again, I have not brought up nor suggested TULIP.
So i suspect you are not really engaging with me (what I am posting) but rather with Calvin.
For as many passages as you can quote concerning people who knew or know God doing righteously, there are as many which those who do not know God do not do good. And as many epistles as we have, they all exhort and warn Christians about sin.
John said if we (himself included) claim to be without sin, there is no truth (none) in us.
I am not yet glorified.

Thank you for the discussion, though.
Poppin.

Sin is universal in that it has affected all mankind but is not universal in that every single person sins for neither Christ nor infants sin.

John was writing to adult Christians, not infants.