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Repentance Vs. Eternal Security

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Ernest T. Bass, Jan 16, 2014.

  1. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    Paul does not contradict himself going from one chapter to another. Rom 3 or 5 do not contradict or nullify chapter 6.

    There is no faith only to be found in Rom 3 or 5.

    Rom 5 says we are justified by faith not faith only nor does Rom 5 each inherited sin. Paul says "and so death passed upon all men" Why has death passed upon all men? "for that all have sinned" Note Paul did not say death passed upon all for all have inherited Adam's sin. men are sinners for they of their own free will choose to sin. (If you would like to continue discussion on this topic there is a thread entitled 'Are babies born without sin' I would be glad to discuss it there,


    Rom 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith APART from the deeds of the law".

    This does NOT say a man is justified apart from any and every kind of works but man is justified apart from works of the OT law. Paul was having to deal with Judiazing teachers that said one cannot be saved apart from OT circumcision, Acts 15:1,2,3 So a man is not justified by keeping works of the OT law but is justified by obeying from the heart that form of doctrine, that is obeying Christ's NT in submitting to water baptism where sins are remitted Acts 2:38 and man is then justified.

    No where have I ever said one is justified by keeping the OT law. SO the question remains, is one serving sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness?

    The Christian at Corinth had committed fornication and fallen from salvation " so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus"

    This makes no sense if salvation cannot be lost. Can a Christian commit fornication and maintain his salvation? No.

    In the context of 1 Cor 3:15 the "works" Paul speaks of in this context are converts. So if a work/convert of Paul is judged to be saved on judgment day then Paul will receive a reward for that work/convert, if Paul's work/convert is judged to be lost (burned) then Paul will suffer a sense of loss over that work/convert but Paul himself will still be saved if he has remained faithful, 1 Cor 9:27
     
  2. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    Hello Ernest T. Bass.
    I have never heard this interpretation before.
    Are you saying Paul would be punished (suffer loss) because someone he discipled fell away from the faith?
    I see you say "will suffer a sense of loss".
    Are you certain this is what you mean to say?
    God Bless,
    Poppin
     
  3. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    Hi.

    To start with, in 1 Cor 9:1 Paul does call those Corinthian Christians his "work"..."Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?"

    In the context of 1 Cor 3 Paul is making a metaphorical comparison between building a building and building the church. Paul metaphorically calls the church a building, verse 9 and a temple verse 16.

    When Paul compares building a building to building the church:

    one builds a building by laying a foundation, then one builds upon that foundation and the building will be as strong as the materials used to build it - either hay wood stubble or gold silver and precious stones.

    Likewise building the church is similar to building a building:

    To build the church a foundation must be laid. In Corinth Paul 'worked' to make the initial converts thereby laying the foundation. After Paul left Corinth, others came in behind Paul and 'worked' to build upon the foundation Paul left by making more converts. And the church there at Corinth will only be as strong as the faith of the converts made.

    Now on judgment day, the work/converts that Paul and others did in building the church in Corinth will be judge = "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

    So judgment day will tell what kind of work/converts Paul and others made at the church in Corinth.

    Verse 14 "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward."

    If a work/convert Paul made is judged to be saved, then Paul will receive a reward for that work/convert.

    But

    Verse 15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

    If a work/convert Paul made is judged to be burned/lost, then Paul will suffer some sense of loss over that convert but Paul will be saved if he remains faithful. Some versions render v15 "But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved..."

    For example, Paul was gravely concerned over his work/converts at Galatia for they had left Christ's NT returning to the OT thinking they could be justified by OT circumcision. Paul condemned them for perverting and leaving the gospel, for having quit obeying the truth, and said they had fallen from grace. And in Gal 4:11 Paul says to his work/converts at Galatia "I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." If on judgment day Paul's work/converts at Galatia 'shall be burned' then Paul would suffer loss over it, his work he did in building the church at Galatia would have been in vain.
     
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  4. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    Ernest T. Bass,
    I will look this over some more - but it sounds true! :)
    I suppose this is the same as the parable of the talents and the bearing of fruit.
    Thank you - God Bless you.
    Poppin.
     
  5. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Poppin, when you look over it, just read the whole chapter and if needed, the whole book each of the verses in question is in. Just start at 1 Cor 1:1 and read the whole thing as a letter. The whole faith + works deal sounds good until you read carefully the whole letter, the follow up letter and every other epistle Paul wrote.
     
  6. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    Really? The bible describes sin as transgression of law. You mention fornication. Sorry, but that is a law straight from the Old Covenant. So you contradict what you are saying. The law of commandments are what we have that identifies what sin is. They are as OT as you can get. They came down from Mount Sinai with Moses. This is what Paul referred to as that covenant which gives birth to bondage (Gal.4:24). As well, he told the Corinthians that there was this ministry of death and condemnation, written and engraved on stones (2Cor. 3:7&9), which he assured them we are not under

    But I marvel at those who like to use so called 'extreme' examples of sin to make their point (ie, fornication). But what about the person who lights up a cigarette every day? Can this person maintain his salvation? Is he not sinning?

    By your condemnation of a fornicating believer, you confirm what Paul said about the old covenant law, it being a minister of death and condemnation. However, John assured us that if we sin we have an advocate with the Father (Jesus) in 1John 2:1. And Jesus Himself promised that those whom He loves He rebukes and chastens. For what..if not sin? He also assured us that through faith in Him, we would not come under judgment (John5:24). Chastening yes...judgment unto condemnation..NO.

    In fact, in Rev.2:20, Jesus mentions those whom He calls .."My servants" , whom He stated were in sexual immorality. How does that compute with your idea that such a person cannot remain saved? Jesus spoke to that situation by warning them that He would chasten them with great tribulation if they continued in the practice.

    That is what Jesus does with a sinning believer.

    Your version is contrary to the grace of God, in that you insist that we must maintain our salvation by the works of whatever law identifies sin. I have news for you. The abstaining from sin is a work of law. And this law originated in the old covenant...which we are not supposed to be under. However, it seems to me that you have a version of law that we apparently are under in the new covenant; A law which by all known standard bears a remarkable resemblance to OT law, my friend.
     
  7. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    Hello FHII,
    Thank you.
    No, I do not believe we are justified by anything we do that is "good enough" to stand before God.
    We are justified by grace through faith In Christ's Finished Work alone and nothing else.
    God planned it and carried it out and reconciled us to Himself through His Son.

    But when we are brought to repentance and faith by hearing the message, we are to obey the Gospel and obey the Son :)
    I believe that we all do. Some all their lives, some are called later, some are fast and some are slow. But I know we all fail as well...this still applies: "I do not believe we are justified by anything we do that is "good enough" to stand before God."

    God is for us, not against us. We are changed and changing, and will be fully changed.

    We are not under the Law, but under Grace. We are to obey the Son and grow in knowledge and grace and abide in Him for without Him, apart from Him we can do nothing. If we do sin, we have confession as a gift and we are assured that Jesus will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. God is for us.

    By the works of the Law no one will be saved, the Law works wrath, but we are under grace. The Law was a tutor to lead us to faith in Christ alone, but we still need The Law. It testifies of Jesus and all He fulfilled, and it stands forever as a testimony against us all in that all have fallen short of God as a result of sin. It's good for rules and to know what God says is right. But it can not save us, because we failed, not God's Law.

    The Law was added to make what sin is (rebellion and offense against God known for what it is...spelled out), and the sacrificial system was to teach how serious our sin is and what death and the wages of it are. But God always provided a substitute, for He is a Loving God who desires to save, not to destroy.

    Sorry for so much talking. I apologize for any errors.

    When I get confused or discouraged I go to Galatians.

    Galatians 3
    So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.

    God Bless you.
    Poppin.
     
  8. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    Col 2:11-14 Christ took all the OT out of the way making in inactive and ineffective. Fornication is wrong for Christ's NT condemns it, Rom 1:29 1 Cor 5:1 1 Cor 6:18 1 Cor 7:2 and many other verses including Gal 5:19-21 where Paul says fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Eternal security denies this and says fornicators will inherit the kingdom of God anyway.


    What unrepented sin(s) will a Christian carry with him into heaven? What sin(s) will occupy heaven?

    Hi,

    I am curious as to how you rectify what you say above " I do not believe we are justified by anything we do that is "good enough" to stand before God" with James 2:21,22,25 or Rom 6:16,17,18 ?

    You do say "we are justified by grace through faith" We are justified by faith Rom 5:1 The bible ties faith and works so closely together that faith is a work 1 Thess 1:3 Gal 5:6 In Jn 6:27-29 Jesus calls belief a work.

    So faith/belief is a work we do that does justify. Faith/belief includes the work of repentance and repenting justifies one before God.
     
  9. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    Hello Ernest T. Bass :)
    I don't believe I need to rectify anything.
    I'll just re-post what you forgot to quote :)

    "But when we are brought to repentance and faith by hearing the message, we are to obey the Gospel and obey the Son.
    I believe that we all do. Some all their lives, some are called later, some are fast and some are slow. But I know we all fail as well...this still applies: "I do not believe we are justified by anything we do that is "good enough" to stand before God."

    God is for us, not against us. We are changed and changing, and will be fully changed.

    We are not under the Law, but under Grace. We are to obey the Son and grow in knowledge and grace and abide in Him for without Him, apart from Him we can do nothing. If we do sin, we have confession as a gift and we are assured that Jesus will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. God is for us."


    I think that might be what you are asking about.
    I could elaborate on what it means to obey the Gospel and obey the Son if you like :)

    But there is, without God's Perfect Son's work on your behalf, not one good thing in you (or me). Nothing to commend us to God, for all (all) have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Jesus did for us what we could not (and still can not) do for ourselves.

    You might disagree.

    love in Christ,
    Poppin
     
  10. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    ...
     
  11. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    What I was talking about rectifying was you said "I do not believe we are justified by anything we do.." yet faith/belief is something we do that justifies.

    You do say "we are to obey the Gospel" and "We are to obey the Son" and obeying is something man must do. So would you say man's work in obeying God's will justifies?


    To provide further clarification, there are no good works you and I can do to merit salvation, but there are obedient works we can do such as believe/have faith to receive justification from God, Rom 5:1. As Paul said "obedience unto righteousness" Rom 6:16 so our obedience to God's will can make us righteous before God.
    "but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him", Acts 10:35 Our working God's righteousness makes us acceptable with God.

    So there is a certain type of work man must do (obey God's will) to be justified, correct?
     
  12. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    A man must have saving faith.

    http://biblehub.com/thayers/4102.htm

    Faith comes by hearing the Word(s) of God

    http://biblehub.com/thayers/189.htm

    The man is made alive

    http://biblehub.com/thayers/4806.htm

    And now being alive to God, having faith (pistis) in God, he obeys God

    Romans 1:5
    Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name's sake.

    http://biblehub.com/thayers/5218.htm

    It is all a gift from God.

    The short answer is yes we obey. But i do not claim to obey perfectly, Ernest - do you?
    Justification is a freely given gift from God.
    If a man has saving faith he will obey the Gospel and learn to live the Christian life, putting aside the deeds of the flesh.
    It is a new life, Ernest T. Bass.
    Where boasting is excluded.

    grace peace and mercy to you,
    God is for us.
    Poppin.
     
  13. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    To clarify what you are saying, you are saying a man is first saved by faith only (faith void of obedient works) then after saved by faith only (no works) he then obeys (does works)?
     
  14. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    A man must have saving faith.
    http://biblehub.com/thayers/4102.htm - faith

    Faith comes by hearing the Word(s) of God
    http://biblehub.com/thayers/189.htm - hearing

    The man is made alive
    http://biblehub.com/thayers/4806.htm - quickened

    And now being alive to God, having faith (pistis) in God, he obeys God

    Romans 1:5
    Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name's sake.
    http://biblehub.com/thayers/5218.htm - obedience

    Ernest, does a man obey God until he believes (has faith) that God is real and that His word is true?
    I am wondering where you have the Holy Spirit in your soteriology. :)
    The Bible tells us what it "looks like" when men :
    1) hear
    2) believe
    3) do

    Acts 2
    37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

    So:
    "To clarify what you are saying, you are saying a man is first saved by faith only (faith void of obedient works) then after saved by faith only (no works) he then obeys (does works)?"

    Is that really a fair summary of what I have been saying? ;)
    1) hear
    2) believe
    3) do- Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    The man continues in the Apostle's teaching learning more and more what is the Will of God.
    There is lots to "do".

    the obedience that comes from faith

    God Bless you,
    in Jesus' Name
    Poppin

    ---------------

    Ernest, I believe I understand what the issue is, having taken another look at the title of your thread (a good thread it is).

    Repentance Vs. Eternal Security

    Why the Vs? :)

    Do you not believe that we can have assurance (eternal security)?
    The Bible says we can.
    Poppin.
     
  15. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    My point is that belief/faith is doing something, belief/faith is a work. Therefore since belief/faith comes BEFORE savlation, then works must come BEFORE salvation

    Likewise repentance is a work, it is something that must be done BEFORE one can be saved, Lk 13:3,5 Acts 2:38

    Confession is doing something, and it is something that one must do BEFORE he can be saved, Mt 10:32,33

    Water baptism is something one must submit himself to and this submitting must come BEFORE salvation, Mk 16;16.


    You say:

    The Bible tells us what it "looks like" when men :
    1) hear
    2) believe
    3) do


    Again, the point I am trying to make is that belieivng is doing where you are trying to separate belief from doing when belief itself is a work, Jn 6:27-29



    --------------------------


    The reason for "versus" between repentance and eternal security is because they are both mutually exclusive ideas, repentance being biblical and eternal security being non-biblcal but man made.

    Eternal security tells one that salvation is an unconditonal guarantee.

    Repentance tells one salvation is conditional upon his repenting. So if the Christian does not repent he will perish.


    Now let's take one who is not a believer, never been a Christian.

    You say for him to be saved he must hear, have belief only (no works) then he is saved by belief only then he does obedient works.

    Yet in Jn 3:16 Jesus tied believing to not perishing/saved. In Lk 13:3,5 Jesus also tied repentance to not perishing/saved. So we have:


    Jn 3:16----believe>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saved
    Lk 13:3----repent>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saved


    Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then a NT belief MUST include the work of repentance. Meaning all the belief only in the world will never, ever save an impenitent person. Therefore when Jesus said belief is a work, Jn 6:2-29, belief is a work that includes the work of repentance, confesson and submitting to water baptism. Belief only is void of works, it is void of repentance confession and baptism.

    Therefore if you argue one can be saved by "belief alone", then you are really arguing an impenitent, denier of Christ who is lost in his unremitted sins can be saved...which is not possible at all.











    .
     
  16. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    I don't wish to argue Ernest T. Bass,
    I do not believe I have said an impenitent person is saved.

    The Bible says we can have assurance.

    1 John 5:13
    I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

    Perhaps my faith in the promises is too great? :)

    God Bless you,
    Poppin.
     
  17. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    Then maybe I am misunderstanding what you are posting.

    Is a person saved by belief only

    or

    is a person saved by a obedient, working belief?



    --------------------------------

    1 Jn 5:13 is a good verse. He did not say "to you who believe only" but said 'to you who believe" with beiieving being a work that includes repentance confession and baptism.
     
  18. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    And I believe I posted this:

    Acts 2
    37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

    Though I will not (dare not) make the claim that one who has truly believed and been pierced to the heart, but not had any opportunity to be baptized due to death or other circumstances is not, or could not be saved.

    God Bless
    Poppin
     
  19. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    So you believe obedience in repenting and being baptized comes BEFORE salvation, so faith only cannot save.

    Yet you say "Though I will not (dare not) make the claim that one who has truly believed and been pierced to the heart, but not had any opportunity to be baptized due to death or other circumstances is not, or could not be saved."

    But baptism is the point where sins are remitted, So how can one be saved while still in his unremitted sins? If I could be saved in my unremitted sins, then why would Christ have needed to die and shed HIs blood for me?

    Has one "truly believed" if he has not been baptized? No, Acts 2:40-44.


    What if one has not had the opportunity to believe, would he be saved anyway?


    Does the NT teach 'death bed salvation'? I cannot find where it does.
     
  20. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    Apparently you have not considered the thief who died on the cross next to Jesus. But water baptism is merely a sign of faith. The true baptism is that of being baptized into Christ. This is the new birth, which is by faith. Saving baptism is a spiritual event, not a physical one.

    In fact, there are examples I know of personally and also seen in Acts where some people were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues after merely hearing the gospel and believing it. In their case, there was no water baptism before this event. You going to tell us that the Holy Spirit indwells the unsaved?

    Just as circumcision was a sign that the person agrees to the covenant of law, water baptism is also like the signature on a document. It is the believer's sign to the world that he has accepted the gospel of grace.

    Paul told the Romans how to be saved in Rom.10:9,10. There was no mention of water baptism. In my humble opinion, you are on a rabbit trail with this baptism doctrine. God is looking at the heart. Anyone can fake it and be baptized. It is not a foolproof exercise nor is it a guarantee. God gives grace to the humble. It is given by way of faith.
     
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