Romans 11:25-27. New prophecy about the future or old prophecy about an ongoing reality?

[covenantee]

Nothing in the text about Godhood either.

Definition of godhood

: DIVINITY

You believe that there's no Divinity in Jesus?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Definition of godhood

: DIVINITY

You believe that there's no Divinity in Jesus?

I'm saying that the Divinity of Jesus is not mentioned in the passage.

 

[Truth7t7]

I think we both agree that God is no respecter of persons. I think we both agree that race and ethnicity was never and will never be the basis for salvation. I assume you and I can find common ground on that point.

Now, that having been said, I disagree with your position that God has no future, specific purpose based on bloodline. I believe he IS going to save a group of people, all direct descendants of Jacob, some time in our future. But race, per se, is not going to be the basis of their salvation; God is going to save that group of people based on a promise he made to their fathers. God is no respecter of persons, but God is a person who keeps his promises. He is going to save them, not for their sake, but for the sake of their fathers.

We can go into detail but for now, please consider the following passage from Romans 11.

Romans 11:1-6

I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.​

I want to focus on the phrase "His people", because I believe it is easy to miss the strong implications of Paul's word choice here. Some one might say, "of course, God has not rejected the Jewish people as a race. If a Jewish individual wants to be saved, then all that person needs to do is confess Jesus Christ. God is not forbidding Jewish people from being saved." This is a true statement; I have no disagreement with it. But Paul is asking a different question. He isn't asking whether God rejected the Jewish race; He is asking whether God has disunited from the Jewish race such that he no longer considers them "his people."

God deals with each individual privately, in the heart and soul of each person. At the same time, God decided to deal publicly and overtly with an entire family line, the direct descendants of Jacob, all taken as a whole and formed into a nation, which God himself calls "my people." The direct descendants of Jacob are "his people" in a way that the Assyrians, the Hittites, the Babylonians and etc. are NOT his people. Consider the following passage.

Deuteronomy 7:6

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.​

Some would argue that based on passages like Galatians 3:28, God has disassociated himself from the Hebrews, no longer considered to be "a people for his own possession." But Paul denies this view. We can see from Romans 11:1 that, indeed, God has NOT disassociated himself from the Hebrew people. His relationship with that unique people remains. God has not rejected the Hebrew people, he continues to consider them "his people."

Roman's is doing nothing more than showing God's purpose with foreknowledge and election, and yes it pertains to "Jews" in this reading

Paul states "Even At This Present Time" meaning there were "Elect Remnant Jews" as he was writing, and these "Elect Remnant Jews" are "The Church"

All Israel Will Be Saved When The Very Last Soul Is Added To "Israel The Church" children of the promised seed, it's that simple

Romans 11:1-7KJV
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

The Remnant Elect Jew Is No Different Than All "The Church" that has been "Elected" by God's "Foreknowledge" past, present, and future

Romans 8:29KJV
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God has brought forth his seed in Jesus Christ, The Church is the "Elect" of God, it has "Inherited" it will dwell in New Jerusalem, both Jew and Gentile

Isaiah 65:9KJV
9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

 

[Truth7t7]

I disagree with your conclusion that Jesus would not return to earth. Did Jesus actually teach that he was not returning to earth? I don't think so. Rather, he was teaching that his return to earth would be so obvious, that we should not expect to find him hidden in a secret location.

Matthew 24:23-28

Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
​

What is being contrasted here? Is Jesus contrasting the earth with heaven? I don't think so. Our Lord warns his disciples against being mislead. He lists various ways that false teachers might mislead us. They might say "Here is the Christ", falsely claiming that someone other than Jesus is the Christ. They might say, "There he is", falsely claiming that someone else, other than Jesus, is the Christ. They might claim that the Christ is out in the wilderness; or they might claim that the Christ is in the inner rooms. Instead of seeking to find a Christ other than Jesus, we should be awaiting the coming of the Son of Man, who will come from the sky just as the lightning flashes from the east even to the west.

 

[Truth7t7]

I disagree with your conclusion that Jesus would not return to earth. Did Jesus actually teach that he was not returning to earth? I don't think so. Rather, he was teaching that his return to earth would be so obvious, that we should not expect to find him hidden in a secret location.

Matthew 24:23-28

Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
​

What is being contrasted here? Is Jesus contrasting the earth with heaven? I don't think so. Our Lord warns his disciples against being mislead. He lists various ways that false teachers might mislead us. They might say "Here is the Christ", falsely claiming that someone other than Jesus is the Christ. They might say, "There he is", falsely claiming that someone else, other than Jesus, is the Christ. They might claim that the Christ is out in the wilderness; or they might claim that the Christ is in the inner rooms. Instead of seeking to find a Christ other than Jesus, we should be awaiting the coming of the Son of Man, who will come from the sky just as the lightning flashes from the east even to the west.

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[covenantee]

I'm saying that the Divinity of Jesus is not mentioned in the passage.

But do you believe that there is Divinity, i.e. Godhood, in Jesus?

 

[Charlie24]

Agreed, and good point about context. I consider Romans 9:6 the opening line of Paul's thesis, which concludes at about Romans 11:27. Charlie, if you agree that Paul has written an extended thesis as I suggest, can you summarize the thesis in one or two sentences?

If you go back to the beginning of chpt. 9, Paul is grieving that his own people are apart from Christ. He explains why, then explains who his countrymen are. Beginning with chpt. 10 he expresses his desire for them to be saved, their problem with self-righteousness, and the faith that saved their forefahers. Then in chpt. 11 he tells us that they will be saved, not just the remnant that God has always had with Israel, but every single one of them. He tells us that through their fall, salvation has come to the Gentile, which was His plan from the beginning.

After Rom. 11:27 is where Paul tells us that the calling of Israel is without repentance, His calling on Israel is not subject to change, they will fulfill that calling. The bottom line is that Israel will receive the promises God made to their father Abraham.

The entire purpose of the 1000 year reign of Christ is for Israel, God's chosen people, to fulfill the original calling of God. The world who hates Israel, and that hatred will grow in the future, will in the end see that God has always loved them, He has always preserved them, and they will be the premiere nation on earth for 1000 years. The entire world will have to come through His chosen people to get to Christ.

 

[CadyandZoe]

But do you believe that there is Divinity, i.e. Godhood, in Jesus?

What do the scriptures say?

 

[Truth7t7]

The entire purpose of the 1000 year reign of Christ is for Israel, God's chosen people, to fulfill the original calling of God. The world who hates Israel, and that hatred will grow in the future, will in the end see that God has always loved them, He has always preserved them, and they will be the premiere nation on earth for 1000 years. The entire world will have to come through His chosen people to get to Christ.

There isn't going to be a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you suggest, Jesus returns in fire and final judgment as post #305 above clearly shows (The End)

Israels Jews are no more chosen of God, no different than any other ethnic race upon the earth, you espouse Zionist dispensationalism in two peoples of God (Dual Covenant Theology)

There is one covenant between God and man, the shed blood upon Calvary "Period"

 

[Charlie24]

There isn't going to be a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you suggest, Jesus returns in fire and final judgment as post #305 above clearly shows (The End)

Israels Jews are no more chosen of God, no different than any other ethnic race upon the earth, you espouse Zionist dispensationalism in two peoples of God (Dual Covenant Theology)

Isaiah 60:10-16

0 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.

14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the Lord, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

15 Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

 

[Charlie24]

There isn't going to be a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you suggest, Jesus returns in fire and final judgment as post #305 above clearly shows (The End)

Israels Jews are no more chosen of God, no different than any other ethnic race upon the earth, you espouse Zionist dispensationalism in two peoples of God (Dual Covenant Theology)

There is one covenant between God and man, the shed blood upon Calvary "Period"

Isaiah 60:10-16

10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.

14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the Lord, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

15 Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

 

[covenantee]

What do the scriptures say?

The Scriptures say that there is Divinity, i.e. Godhood, in Jesus.

I believe that there is Divinity, i.e. Godhood, in Jesus.

Do you believe that there is Divinity, i.e. Godhood, in Jesus?

 

[Truth7t7]

Isaiah 60 speaks of the (Eternal Kingdom) what's your point?

Isaiah 60:11KJV
11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

Revelation 21:23-26KJV
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

 

[Timtofly]

Right. Somehow destroying the world in Noah's day was a case of grace and mercy but doing so when Christ returns is not? This is nothing new, though. He contradicts himself often. He clearly has no idea of what he's talking about. Ever.

WPM changed the subject to avoid the point. The Flood of Noah is not the Second Coming. Seems all you have to add is pointing out poster's faults, and change the topic as well.

The point is Amil have Jesus handing God a burnt offering instead of a perfect creation ruled by Jesus until all enemies are subjected. Amil don't allow Jesus to rule over those after the cleansing fire of the Second Coming. Revelation 20 is talking about a future reign, not a past reign. The condition of creation at the Second Coming is sin and death. That is what Amil claims Jesus hands back to God. Amil claim God does not need any more time to show grace and mercy.

 

[Truth7t7]

Amil don't allow Jesus to rule over those after the cleansing fire of the Second Coming. Revelation 20 is talking about a future reign, not a past reign. The condition of creation at the Second Coming is sin and death. That is what Amil claims Jesus hands back to God. Amil claim God does not need any more time to show grace and mercy.

Jesus "Dissolves" this earth by fire at his return, there won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you claim

2 Peter 3:10-12KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus "Dissolves" this earth by fire at his return, there won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you claim

I did not write Revelation 20. You have an issue with God's Word?

In your claim is "heaven" talking about the physical earth?

 

[Truth7t7]

I did not write Revelation 20. You have an issue with God's Word?

In your claim is "heaven" talking about the physical earth?

Your responses are confusion, I don't have a clue what your claim is or what you are talking about

 

[Charlie24]

Isaiah 60 speaks of the (Eternal Kingdom) what's your point?

Isaiah 60:11KJV
11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

Revelation 21:23-26KJV
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

The point is that God so loves Israel that He had to smite them for thousands of years in order to prepare them for His great love.

Those who smite Israel with the mouth will not go unjudged. Your words are being written down, and you will see them again.

Israel is a thorn in the backside of the entire world, but everyone had better be careful how they deal with that problem, down to the individual. They are His chosen for a reason, and He is very peculiar over them.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Scriptures say that there is Divinity, i.e. Godhood, in Jesus.

I believe that there is Divinity, i.e. Godhood, in Jesus.

Do you believe that there is Divinity, i.e. Godhood, in Jesus?

No, I don't. The Divinity of Jesus did not come from the Bible; it came from the Catholic Church. The Apostles taught that Jesus is the image of God, the exegesis of God, the revelation of God, the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature. But Jesus was a man, not a divinity.

 

[Truth7t7]

The point is that God so loves Israel that He had to smite them for thousands of years in order to prepare them for His great love.

Those who smite Israel with the mouth will not go unjudged. Your words are being written down, and you will see them again.

Israel is a thorn in the backside of the entire world, but everyone had better be careful how they deal with that problem, down to the individual. They are His chosen for a reason, and He is very peculiar over them.

Isaiah 60 doesn't state what you claim, keep searching for scripture that gives special treatment by God to a specific ethnic race "Jews" you ain't gonna find it in the bible