Romans 11:25-27. New prophecy about the future or old prophecy about an ongoing reality?

[CadyandZoe]

This is heresy!

Your argument is with the apostles.

 

[WPM]

Your argument is with the apostles.

Not so! Quite the opposite. You are fighting with God and God's Word. This is actually blasphemy as well. You are attacking the character of God. This is what the cults do. Are you a JW or a Mormon?

You are blaspheming!

 

[WPM]

Isaiah isn't saying what you say he is saying. He isn't saying, as you suppose, that the Child IS the almighty God. Isaiah is not telling us what he is, he is telling us what he does.

This child is "the mighty God"! What does this child do in your opinion?

 

[WPM]

Look again, it doesn't say "he shall be called"; rather it says, "his name shall be called." In the Bible, a person's "name" is his role, status, quality or characteristic. A child will be born and that child will grow up to rule. The government will rest on his shoulders. That isn't who he is, that is what he does. His name, his role will be "wonderful counselor" his name, his role will be "mighty God," his name, his role will be "Eternal Father", his name, his role will be "Prince of peace."

Isaiah is not saying, as you suppose, "the child will be the Eternal Father". Rather Isaiah is saying that the child will rule his government as one appointed and authorize to act for the Eternal Father.

You are talking gobbledygook.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isaiah isn't saying what you say he is saying. He isn't saying, as you suppose, that the Child IS the almighty God. Isaiah is not telling us what he is, he is telling us what he does.

Stop your lies. I have no reason to listen to you at all. What would it even mean for Him to do God? Is that like playing God? What nonsense. What about the other scriptures I referenced? And there are plenty more. Nothing to say about those?

 

[WPM]

Your argument is with the apostles.

Jeremiah 23:5-6: "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (or Yĕhovah tsidqenuw)."

In Zechariah 12:10, a prophecy which had already identified Jehovah as the one speaking (12:1, 4), Jehovah said: “... and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced ...”

This is a reference to the crucifixion. Who was pierced at the crucifixion? This passage calls Him Jehovah.

 

[jeffweeder]

Phil 2
5 Have this same attitude in yourselves which was in Christ Jesus [look to Him as your example in selfless humility], 6 who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it]; 7 but emptied Himself [without renouncing or diminishing His deity, but only temporarily giving up the outward expression of divine equality and His rightful dignity] by assuming the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men [He became completely human but was without sin, being fully God and fully man]. 8 After He was found in [terms of His] outward appearance as a man [for a divinely-appointed time], He humbled Himself [still further] by becoming obedient [to the Father] to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also [because He obeyed and so completely humbled Himself], God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow [in submission], of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess and openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord (sovereign God), to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Christian Gedge]

No, I don't. The Divinity of Jesus did not come from the Bible; it came from the Catholic Church. The Apostles taught that Jesus is the image of God, the exegesis of God, the revelation of God, the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature. But Jesus was a man, not a divinity.

Whaa!

 

[CadyandZoe]

I can't fathom how someone who calls himself a Christian could deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Scripture repeatedly teaches that Jesus is God.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus is God. You need to acknowledge this.

Well, this is your thread. I didn't want to derail it, but since you commented I guess you approve. We talked about Isaiah 9:6, where Isaiah says what the child will do, not what he is. Colossians 2:9 is mistranslated.

Go back to verse 6, paying attention to Paul's use of terms, and follow his argument.

Colossians 2:6-14

6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.​

In every case the phrase "in him" applies to the believer and connotes a close association with Jesus.

Vs. 6 -- walk in (association with) him.
vs. 7 -- built up in (association with) him.
vs. 9 -- in (association with) him all the fulness of deity dwells in bodily form
vs. 10 -- in (association with) him you have been made complete
vs. 11 -- in (association with) him you were circumcised

Now, since Paul has used the phase "in him" with the same meaning in four different verses, why should I think he broke his pattern in vs. 9 to talk about the deity of Christ? It doesn't make sense. Just like in all the other cases, verse 9 is saying something about the full body of believers, not the quiddity of Christ.

Paul has coined a term "the fulness" to represent all believers throughout time. Ephesians 1:23, Ephesians 3:19, Ephesians 4:13. Paul uses the word with the same sense in Colossians 1:19. "fullness" = the entire body of believers. It's not the fulness of deity as a quality of Jesus; its the fulness of his body, which comes from the deity.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The truth is right there in scripture plain as day.

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

I agree. The truth is right there in scripture. Thomas calls him "my Lord and My God." Does that make Jesus diety? I don't think so.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not so! Quite the opposite. You are fighting with God and God's Word. This is actually blasphemy as well. You are attacking the character of God. This is what the cults do. Are you a JW or a Mormon?

You are blaspheming!

See how this works? We have gone from a fruitful exchange of ideas to a heretic hunt. And isn't it convenient for you that we disagree on your view of the Millennium? What a coincidence.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This child is "the mighty God"! What does this child do in your opinion?

Isaiah doesn't say the child IS "Mighty God" Isaiah says that his name shall be called "mighty God." And I explained the meaning of "name".

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are talking gobbledygook.

To you, everything I say is gobbledygook. What else is new? You disagree with me, for what reason you can't say. So you insult me. I understand this spirit.

 

[jeffweeder]

Is 43
11
“I, [only] I, am the Lord,
And there is no Savior besides Me.

Is 59
15
Yes, truth is missing;
And he who turns away from evil makes himself a prey.
Now the Lord saw it,
And it displeased Him that there was no justice.
16
He saw that there was no man,
And was amazed that there was no one to intercede [on behalf of truth and right];
Therefore, His own arm brought salvation to Him,
And His own righteousness sustained Him.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Stop your lies. I have no reason to listen to you at all. What would it even mean for Him to do God? Is that like playing God? What nonsense. What about the other scriptures I referenced? And there are plenty more. Nothing to say about those?

I'm surprised to hear this coming from a Christian. How many times did Jesus say something similar to the verse below?

John 5:19

Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. ​

We learn from Jesus himself that he came to do and say the things the father would have him do and say. He was obeying his father.

John the Apostle says of Jesus, "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." John 1:18 The word translated "explained" is the Greek word exegesis. In other words, Jesus was the exegesis of the Father. Jesus made God understandable.

Paul calls Jesus the image of God. Colossians 1:15.
He calls the MAN Jesus, "the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature." Hebrews 1:3

In other words, Jesus the man, is the representation of God's nature, not God's nature itself.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jeremiah 23:5-6: "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (or Yĕhovah tsidqenuw)."

In Zechariah 12:10, a prophecy which had already identified Jehovah as the one speaking (12:1, 4), Jehovah said: “... and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced ...”

This is a reference to the crucifixion. Who was pierced at the crucifixion? This passage calls Him Jehovah.

Again, Jeremiah refers to the NAME whereby he shall be called.

 

[WPM]

Again, Jeremiah refers to the NAME whereby he shall be called.

What are you talking about? Name denotes character. He is God! He is Yahweh!

 

[WPM]

Isaiah doesn't say the child IS "Mighty God" Isaiah says that his name shall be called "mighty God." And I explained the meaning of "name".

Are you called "mighty God"? Is there anyone else that you know called "mighty God"? Why is He called "mighty God"? Hello! Because He is "mighty God"?

Stop playing with words to support heresy and blasphemy. You are called a human. Is that true? You are called a sinner? Is that true? Name denotes character and reality. What planet are you living on?

 

[Truth7t7]

None of that matters. Orthodoxy is doctrine with an army. Not all of the ECF's believed in the divinity of Christ. Christians were free to disagree on that point until the Catholic Church declared non-trinitarians anathema and put them to death. Do you actually believe that precedence carries any weight when it is enforced by the sword? I don't.

1 John 5:7-8KJV
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

[WPM]

See how this works? We have gone from a fruitful exchange of ideas to a heretic hunt. And isn't it convenient for you that we disagree on your view of the Millennium? What a coincidence.

Are you saying that Jesus did not exist before Bethlehem?