Romans 11:25-27. New prophecy about the future or old prophecy about an ongoing reality?

[CadyandZoe]

You got the wrong word. Colossians 2:9 is theotés, not theós.

Yes, Colossians 2

I don't put people on ignore, but I'm done with you. Just so you know. You are a false teacher and you shamefully deny that Jesus is God which shows that you don't know Him. I don't want anything to do with you. So, don't waste any more of your time talking to me. Your lies have been exposed thoroughly already, so I'm done with this nonsense.

Again, I have NEVER denied that Jesus is God. I maintain that Jesus is not fully God as the creed says. I deny that they are of the same essence. I deny that a person can be both God and man at the same time.

 

[WPM]

I told you a long time ago, we are not talking about the quiddity of God. For some reason you wrongly believe that a denial of Jesus' deity is also a denial of his identity, i.e. God. Do you understand the difference between quiddity and identity?

The New Testament teaches us that Jesus is God incarnate. This does NOT mean that Jesus is God in a man suit. It does NOT mean that he is both fully God and fully man. This is all rubbish based on Greek philosophy.

quiddity = the "what" of a thing. When the New Testament teaches you that Jesus is God, it isn't teaching you WHAT is Jesus. It is teaching you WHO is Jesus. I deny the deity of Christ because he is a man, born to Mary in Bethlehem. He is a male human being. That is WHAT he is. The New Testament teaches you that Jesus is God. That is WHO he is. Jesus and God are not identical substance. Contrary to the creed, they are not of the same essence. Jesus and God share another kind of identity. The New Testament teaches you that Jesus is the expression of God in the medium of humanity.

To claim the deity of Jesus is to deny his humanity.

Why do you refuse to answer the question: what do you mean by "Jesus is God incarnate"?

 

[WPM]

Yes, Colossians 2

Again, I have NEVER denied that Jesus is God. I maintain that Jesus is not fully God as the creed says. I deny that they are of the same essence. I deny that a person can be both God and man at the same time.

Explain what you mean by the expression "Jesus is God"?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I appreciate you candid honesty, however I strongly disagree with your claims. I would stand with WPM and Israelite on their several post concerning their questioning and comments that I have read

In my opinion your in the realm of Jehovahs Witnesses, couple that with the many other claims made, your theology and eschatology is out of the ball park, not to be taken seriously

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

I understand. I read "Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin. I know full well that: 1) denial of the Deity of Christ marks me as a member of a cult (thought it isn't true) and 2) that the subject is like an electrified fence. Anyone who gets too close will surely die. All I can say is that I never bring it up and I never enter into discussions of the subject. The only reason why I am taking the time to discuss the subject is because I was asked a direct question about it. And when asked, I will not lie.

I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, I am not a Mormon, I am not basing my ideas on a creed or a denominational creed. I am not following a cult leader. The fact is, I was asking my own questions and doing my own study. I researched the issue and read reformed and conservative scholars. I really wanted to know the truth. In other words, I am thinking for myself, not following anyone at all. What I said in this thread is the complication of many, many hours of study and thinking this out.

Now, I understand, If you never want to listen to me again, that's fine. I hold no ill will against anyone.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why do you refuse to answer the question: what do you mean by "Jesus is God incarnate"?

I can't answer the question until we have common ground.

 

[WPM]

I can't answer the question until we have common ground.

So, why have you got a pastor's link at the bottom of your posts if you are not a pastor and do not attend a church that promotes your Unitarian beliefs?

 

[CadyandZoe]

You better sort out your HTML.

So, why have you got a pastor's link at the bottom of your posts if you are not a pastor and do not attend a church that promotes your Unitarian beliefs?

Sorry, I was answering posts so quickly I think I must have started a new answer before I was finished with the previous one.

I have my "pastor's" link in my signature line because he is a good Bible teacher. I call him my "pastor," not because he serves that role officially, but because I seek his advice and guidance when I need to talk to someone who has walked with the Lord longer than me. He was officially my pastor before Covid hit and my church could no longer afford to rent our building. Now, I meet with 6 to 8 men every week and we discuss the Bible.

 

[Truth7t7]

I understand. I read "Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin. I know full well that: 1) denial of the Deity of Christ marks me as a member of a cult (thought it isn't true) and 2) that the subject is like an electrified fence. Anyone who gets too close will surely die. All I can say is that I never bring it up and I never enter into discussions of the subject. The only reason why I am taking the time to discuss the subject is because I was asked a direct question about it. And when asked, I will not lie.

I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, I am not a Mormon, I am not basing my ideas on a creed or a denominational creed. I am not following a cult leader. The fact is, I was asking my own questions and doing my own study. I researched the issue and read reformed and conservative scholars. I really wanted to know the truth. In other words, I am thinking for myself, not following anyone at all. What I said in this thread is the complication of many, many hours of study and thinking this out.

Now, I understand, If you never want to listen to me again, that's fine. I hold no ill will against anyone.

Thanks for your reply, the holy Bible is packed full of scripture that Identifies Jesus Christ as God manifested in the flesh, couple that with many other points we have argued, your belief and teachings are way outside Christian Orthodoxy, and you don't stand alone

Jesus Is The Lord God Almighty

 

[WPM]

Sorry, I was answering posts so quickly I think I must have started a new answer before I was finished with the previous one.

I have my "pastor's" link in my signature line because he is a good Bible teacher. I call him my "pastor," not because he serves that role officially, but because I seek his advice and guidance when I need to talk to someone who has walked with the Lord longer than me. He was officially my pastor before Covid hit and my church could no longer afford to rent our building. Now, I meet with 6 to 8 men every week and we discuss the Bible.

So, you are deceiving the reader. He is not a real pastor. Why do you not tell the truth and say it is "my friend's new channel"?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Explain what you mean by the expression "Jesus is God"?

I thought about answering this in my previous post, even before you asked it, but in light of our discussion so far, I'm not convinced you would understand the answer. You don't seem to have the ability to provisionally suspend your own beliefs long enough to hear and understand what other's are attempting to communicate to you.

But, okay.

Consider the following verses.

Colossians 3:9-11

Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him— a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.​

I quoted that passage for two reasons. First, I highlighted the last phrase because I believe this with my whole heart. I confess Jesus is the Christ and he is all. Period. I am not a heretic or an unbeliever.

Second, take note of Paul's usage of the term "image" in verse 10. He asserts that God, the creator, is transforming the old self into the new self, and that "new self", Paul says, is the image of the one who created him. In what way do we image God? Don't we image God when we do as God would do, think what God would think, like what God would like, act like God would act?

Paul is not claiming that we are being transformed into God; rather, we are being transformed into the image of God. Big difference. Suppose a boy takes a picture of his father. And suppose his classmate should see the picture and ask the boy, "who is that in the picture?" The boy will say, "that is my dad." Does the boy mean to suggest that a piece of paper sired him? No, the image represents or depicts his father. The boy is not telling a fib when he says, "that is my father." Everyone knows what he means. Everyone knows, by convention and common sense, the boy is identifying the person of whom the photo represents.

When a man or a woman is being transformed into the image of God, its as if God took a picture of the man, but by a miracle, the image begins to look less like the original man and more like the one who took the picture. The old man is beginning to look like the new man, which is beginning to look like an image of God. One must always remember, though, that the image of God is only as sharp and distinctive that the medium of a human life can closely resemble the creator.

Now consider the following passage, taken from earlier in the epistle.

Colossians 2:13-18

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all [people]* have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all [people], and in Him all [people] hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place [among everyone] For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all [people] to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether [people] on earth or [people] in heaven.​

Verse 15 tells us two things about God's son: 1) he is a creature, and 2) as a creature he is the image of God. As we discussed earlier, the image of God is not God himself; the image of God represents God perfectly, like a picture. When someone looks at Jesus, it's as if they are looking at a picture of God. In fact, Jesus says this very thing to Phillip, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." John 14:9 The photo of the boy's father is the father's image, recorded in another medium. Likewise, the man Jesus is the image of God the father as expressed in the life of another medium, i.e. a human life.

Within the medium of a human life, Jesus will always image God the father, which is why we worship him, what he is the head of all people, head of the church, and first place in all things. All of this is true, not because Jesus is made of "god stuff", but because the Father assigned this role to Jesus, making him sinless and perfectly obedient.

As we discussed before "the fulness" is a term Paul coined to represent all believers everywhere and throughout time. He defined this term in the first chapter of Ephesians. Here, Paul asserts that it was the fathers good pleasure to place the entire "fullness" in Christ.



____________
*In the NASB the translator translated "ta panta" as all things, when I think it should have been translated "all people" because the context is redemption and forgiveness. Things are not forgiven; people are forgiven. Things are not reconciled, people are reconciled. Therefore I have substituted "people" instead of "things" where appropriate.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thanks for your reply, the holy Bible is packed full of scripture that Identifies Jesus Christ as God manifested in the flesh, couple that with many other points we have argued, your belief and teachings are way outside Christian Orthodoxy, and you don't stand alone

Jesus Is The Lord God Almighty

Okay, but I hope you will understand that Jesus told Phillip, "He who has seen me has seen the father." Paul, in his epistle to the Colossians explains this a bit further. Jesus is the image of the Father, meaning, when we look at Jesus we are seeing the father. If Paul were to take a picture of Jesus, I think we would be able to tell the difference between the image of Jesus (as a photograph) and Jesus himself, right? Likewise, we should be able to tell the difference between Jesus, as image of God, and God himself, yes?

 

[CadyandZoe]

So, you are deceiving the reader. He is not a real pastor. Why do you not tell the truth and say it is "my friend's new channel"?

You suspicious mind has gotten the better of you. You are interpreting events in light of your mistaken assumption. I gave you the true explanation, but you ignored the details that didn't fit your narrative.

 

[WPM]

You suspicious mind has gotten the better of you. You are interpreting events in light of your mistaken assumption. I gave you the true explanation, but you ignored the details that didn't fit your narrative.

Not so! This is false advertising. This is fake news. This reveals how you function. Why do you not tell the truth and say it is "my friend's new channel"? After all, he is not a real pastor, he is a wantobe pastor.

 

[WPM]

I thought about answering this in my previous post, even before you asked it, but in light of our discussion so far, I'm not convinced you would understand the answer. You don't seem to have the ability to provisionally suspend your own beliefs long enough to hear and understand what other's are attempting to communicate to you.

But, okay.

Consider the following verses.

Colossians 3:9-11

Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him— a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.​

I quoted that passage for two reasons. First, I highlighted the last phrase because I believe this with my whole heart. I confess Jesus is the Christ and he is all. Period. I am not a heretic or an unbeliever.

Second, take note of Paul's usage of the term "image" in verse 10. He asserts that God, the creator, is transforming the old self into the new self, and that "new self", Paul says, is the image of the one who created him. In what way do we image God? Don't we image God when we do as God would do, think what God would think, like what God would like, act like God would act?

Paul is not claiming that we are being transformed into God; rather, we are being transformed into the image of God. Big difference. Suppose a boy takes a picture of his father. And suppose his classmate should see the picture and ask the boy, "who is that in the picture?" The boy will say, "that is my dad." Does the boy mean to suggest that a piece of paper sired him? No, the image represents or depicts his father. The boy is not telling a fib when he says, "that is my father." Everyone knows what he means. Everyone knows, by convention and common sense, the boy is identifying the person of whom the photo represents.

When a man or a woman is being transformed into the image of God, its as if God took a picture of the man, but by a miracle, the image begins to look less like the original man and more like the one who took the picture. The old man is beginning to look like the new man, which is beginning to look like an image of God. One must always remember, though, that the image of God is only as sharp and distinctive that the medium of a human life can closely resemble the creator.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Upon the new birth, the believer takes on Christ. This results in the believer being changed or “renewed” into conformity to the image of God. The Greek word here interpreted “image” is eikōn meaning likeness, profile, or resemblance. The key here is the manifestation of Christ in our lives that enables the new man to be seen.

We don't reflect the image of God by doing as God does, thinking as God thinks, liking what God likes, acting like God acts. No. This is not good-works religion. We reflect the image of God when we receive Christ into our hearts and our minds are “renewed in knowledge.” He is the visible expression of the invisible God.

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Galatians 3:27 says, “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

To put on the new man is to put on Christ. To put on Christ is to put on righteousness and holiness. We need the righteousness of Christ imputed to us because we have no acceptable righteousness of our own. We need Christ’s righteousness imputed to us—meaning, we need God’s holiness credited to our account.

1 Cor 1:30

30 of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification [Gr. hagiasmos or holiness], and redemption:

Jesus becomes our holiness. It then becomes the work of the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ’s character in us and through us.

Hebrews 12:10-14: “we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.”

Again, holiness is nothing you can attain of your own efforts or your own works. We cannot earn it by merit.

Colossians 1:14-17 reveals of Jesus: "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature."

The same Greek word interpreted “image” [Gr. eikōn] is used here meaning likeness, profile, or resemblance. This shows us who Jesus is.

Hebrews 1:2 &10 says, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom (or dia hos) also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.”

Firstly, as Strong’s correctly explains: the word dia (which is rightly interpreted “by” here) is “a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act.” In the case we are looking at it tells us that it was through the channel or agency of the “Son” that God “made the worlds.” This is clear and simple for those that don’t need to reinterpret it. The word hos (rendered “whom”) is simply “the relatively (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that.” There is absolutely no ground to negate the meaning of the commonly used Greek words. They show what repeated Scripture tells us that Jesus is God/Creator.

Finally, the word for “made” here is the popular Greek word poieo which simply and consistently means ‘to make or do’. These verses show the pre-existence of Christ the Son of God the Creator.

This is the only time in the Bible that this word is found.

There is a different word used here for “image.” The phrase “express image” derives from the lone Greek word charakter which means what it says: “character.” Christ is “the brightness of” God’s “glory” and the “charakter of his person.” Christ is the physical manifestation or representation of the invisible God. He is indeed the “express image” of Almighty God. Jesus is God. God physically is expressed in the person of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, Colossians 2

Again, I have NEVER denied that Jesus is God. I maintain that Jesus is not fully God as the creed says.

I said I was done with you because of your denial of Christ's deity, but now you're saying He is God?

What do you mean that He is not fully God? Are you just saying He is God the Son and not God the Father or God the Holy Spirit? Or do you mean something else?

I deny that they are of the same essence.

What does this mean? Why are you always so vague?

I deny that a person can be both God and man at the same time.

Is anything impossible with God? No. So, if Jesus is God, as you are now saying He is, then why would it not be possible for Him to be both God and man at the same time?

Do you believe that Jesus existed as God before He was born of the virgin Mary? Do you believe that He was created?

You said before that Jesus needed to be saved. Why would God need to be saved in any way, shape or form?

Can you please start answering these questions? The way you are so vague and the way you don't seem to want to answer our questions makes me suspicious that you are hiding something or are ashamed to acknowledge what you really believe.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I said I was done with you because of your denial of Christ's deity, but now you're saying He is God?

What do you mean that He is not fully God? Are you just saying He is God the Son and not God the Father or God the Holy Spirit? Or do you mean something else?

I'm sorry, I am answering so many people I can't always remember what I said to whom. I went back and found the post where I pointed out the attributes of God. Look for that here. In that post, I highlighted in bold all those attributes of God that define "deity" according to the Bible. When I deny the deity of Jesus, I deny that Jesus is infinite, self-existing, immutable, self-sufficient, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and above all, Jesus is not transcendent (which is an attribute of God that I forgot to add to the list in the previous post.)

Jesus was born, he learned wisdom, he grew up, he got tired, he ate food, he bled, he sweated, he walked around, he was always located in a particular place. He is a human being, a man who obeyed a mother, cried for those whom he loved, suffered agony and pain, and was tempted by Satan. Paul argues that it was fitting for the Messiah to be a man, "For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted." And again he says, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin."

This is also a true statement, "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone." James 1:13. Luke records that Jesus was taken into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan, and Paul strongly argues that Jesus was tempted but without sin. James asserts that God can't be tempted. If we maintain that Jesus is God, then we are faced with a very serious and discouraging contradiction. The Bible isn't wrong that Jesus is God, but in order to sort out this apparent contradiction we need to review the principle of contradiction.

When I was debating atheists, we talked a lot about the Law of Contradiction. I borrowed the following definition from Encyclopedia.com

The principle of contradiction expresses the metaphysical and logical opposition between being and its negation. It is concisely expressed by Aristotle: "A thing cannot at the same time be and not be…" (Meta. 996b30); "the same attribute cannot at the same time belong and not belong to the same subject in the same respect…" (Meta. 1005b 19–20). Formulated in the logical order, it asserts that it is impossible to affirm and at the same time deny the same predicate of the same subject. [Encylopedia.com]​

That's the key. Jesus is God in some respect, but not in the same respect as the Transcendent Creator God. The Bible never comes right out an explicitly says "Jesus is God"; rather, the Biblical view is that Jesus images God. Jesus is the exact representation of his nature, Jesus exegetes God. Jesus is the light of the world. Jesus and the Father are one. I explained what Paul means by "Image of God" to WPM here. Image of God.

The one idea that both Christians and Jews share in common, or at least they should, is Monotheism. "Hear O'Israel! The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." Yahweh referred to himself as "I am", meaning "I am he who is." But the most important aspect of Monotheism is God's Transcendence.

The best analogy I have heard with respect to the concept of God's "transcendence" is the "author/novel" analogy. God is as to the author, as reality is to the novel. Just as the author has existence outside and apart from the novel, God has existence outside and apart from the novel. With respect to his or her novel, the author is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent; and likewise, God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent over reality.

We know that novels are fictional stories, but in some sense the stories have a type of reality. The author's thoughts are real, and the novel helps readers make contact with the author's thoughts. The author is more real than the novel he created; and conversely the story contained in his novel is less real than he is. If the author should burn the book, he would survive even though the reality he created is lost. Likewise, God is more real that we are. Before any of us existed in reality, we existed in the mind of God first. God, in his transcendence is more real than we are. If God should destroy our reality, he would survive even though the reality he created is lost.

With respect to his novel, no character can ever know anything about the author, unless the author writes himself into the novel. Likewise, no one in our reality can know anything about God unless God writes himself into our reality. The Bible records God making himself known through "theophanies". The burning bush is a theophany. Through the burning bush, God writes himself into the Exodus story. Moses comes to understand something about the transcendent creator through the medium of supernatural fire. God could have created a theophany to be King over Israel, but he didn't.

In the first two chapters of his epistle to the Hebrews, Paul argues very emphatically that Jesus is NOT a theophany (he uses the term "angel.") But instead, this time, God made himself known to reality through a son, a human male. Apparently Hebrew leaders believed that the Messiah would be a theophany of God, and on this basis, denied that Jesus was the Christ. He couldn't be the Christ because Jesus was a man and not a theophany. Paul argues that, indeed, Jesus is the exact representation of God's character, but Jesus is a man, not an angel. It was fitting that the messiah be a man and Paul found Biblical precedent for that idea.

So then. Jesus is God, but not in the same way that the Transcendent creator is God. In the words of Jesus himself, he is God in the sense that he perfectly represents God in every way possible for a human being to represent God. He says to the crowds, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner." John 5:19

What does this mean? Why are you always so vague?

I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to be vague or coy. I thought perhaps you were familiar with the ideas behind the creeds, and the arguments that Christian theologians make in favor of the Trinity doctrine. Based on philosophical concepts theologians borrowed from the Greeks, these men argued that God the Father and God the Son are of the same "essence." (ousia in Greek) The father and the son share the same "essential nature", which is where the doctrine of "pre-existence" finds its basis. So how can a man share the same "essential nature" with God?

Christian theologians innovated the doctrine of the "hupostasis", claiming that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one "ousia" in three "hupostasis". They are one essence in three substances, with a special meaning of "substance." Anyway, it would take an entire book to explain everything about this doctrine and it's implications for Christian theology. And I wish I could do that, but this post is getting long. I encourage you to do a bit of reading on the subject and familiarize yourself with the ideas behind the creeds. If you desire to believe the creeds, at least you will be familiar with the rational basis behind them.

Is anything impossible with God? No. So, if Jesus is God, as you are now saying He is, then why would it not be possible for Him to be both God and man at the same time?

Good question. While we say that nothing is impossible with God, we except the illogical. Is it impossible for God to create a square circle? We can't answer that question because by definition, circles are round. For that reason, we say that a square circle is a meaningless concept. With respect to God the son, reason dictates that God the Son is not God the Father in the same way under the same circumstances, because by definition a man and a deity are two different things. Numbers 23:19

Do you believe that Jesus existed as God before He was born of the virgin Mary? Do you believe that He was created?

Jesus, like every other thing in this reality, existed in the mind of God before he entered into reality. Did Jesus have pre-existence as a living person before he was born? No. Did God create Jesus? Yes. "He is the first born among all creation."

You said before that Jesus needed to be saved. Why would God need to be saved in any way, shape or form?

Even those who believe in the Hypostatic union must admit that unless the Father raised him from the dead, Jesus the man, would cease to exist. Jesus died and he had to be delivered (saved) from death.

Can you please start answering these questions? The way you are so vague and the way you don't seem to want to answer our questions makes me suspicious that you are hiding something or are ashamed to acknowledge what you really believe.

I'm sorry. I have a regular day job and I also know that folks like short posts. For these reasons I tend to abbreviate my answers, thinking that readers are familiar with the material. I apologize for being unclear. That is my fault and I will try to do better.

 

[CadyandZoe]

@WPM, since I messed up my previous post, I decided to create a new one here.

He is divine.

Jesus is divine in character without being a deity. In his epistle to the Romans, Paul argues that the divine nature of God is clearly seen in what he has made. Romans1:20. The Creation is not a deity. This includes Jesus who represents God's divine nature perfectly and to such a great degree, that Paul argues in Colossians that Jesus images God. Peter, on the other hand, argues that by the precious and magnificent promises of God, we become partakers of the divine nature, "having escaped the corruption that is the world by lust" 2 Peter 1:4 Thus, even as we will eventually participate in the divine nature according to God's promise, we are not a deity either. Jesus is divine, but that doesn't make him a deity.

He is the Word.

John does NOT say that Jesus is the word. He says that the word became flesh. What does it mean for a word to become flesh? A word becomes flesh in the same way that a building blueprint becomes a building. A word becomes flesh in the same way that an idea in the mind of an architect is given physical form in reality outside of his mind.

Jesus said in John 10:30, “I and my Father are one.”

They were one in nature, one in essence, well in heart, one in perfection, and one in power.

Is Jesus talking about the hupostatic union? I don't think so. He claims that he is of one mind and purpose with the Father. And later in John, he will pray the same thing about his future apostles

I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. John 17:11

He does not pray that the apostles will become one "ousia" with him and the father.

I Corinthians 8:6 says: “there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

Read the text: all things exist through and by Jesus Christ the Son of God. The inspired text refutes your claims.

Paul clearly names the father as God. He names the son as Lord. This distinction is important. He tells us that God is the source of all things saying "of whom are all things"; then he says that the Lord sustains all things saying, "by whom are all things." We understand that through the son, God was reconciling the world to himself and because of this, he has granted them eternal life. Paul isn't saying that Jesus created everything, he says that by Jesus everything will continue. That is, Jesus will defeat death.

This is a common trait performed by the cults when engaging with them. They change the original words to mean the opposite to what they are. They butcher the original language. The Greek word dia is actually a primary preposition denoting: "the channel of an act" (Strong's). Jesus was the channel whom the Father worked through. He was the Creator.

This is a common rookie mistake made by those who believe that dictionaries and lexicons are inspired scripture. The Greek word "dia" means what Paul intended it to mean, not necessarily what a dictionary says it means.

Hebrews 1:2 &10 says, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom (or dia hos) also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.”

Firstly, as Strong’s correctly explains: the word dia (which is rightly interpreted “by” here) is “a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act.” In the case we are looking at it tells us that it was through the channel or agency of the “Son” that God “made the worlds.” This is clear and simple for those that don’t need to reinterpret it. The word hos (rendered “whom”) is simply “the relatively (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that.” There is absolutely no ground to negate the meaning of the commonly used Greek words. They show what repeated Scripture tells us that Jesus is God/Creator.

What you have in your hand is a translation and a lexicon and you are comparing the translation with the lexicon. I get that. That's how I thought translation was done. I thought, as you do, that translation is nothing more than decoding a word from one language to another.

If you had studied this passage, you would have immediately rejected the dictionary defintion of the word "dia" for two main reasons. First, Paul isn't talking about the pre-existent "Word" in this context. Paul is talking about Jesus the man. It wasn't the "Word" who appeared in these last days; Jesus the man appeared in these last days; Jesus the man was lower than the angels; Jesus the man was appointed over the works of his father's hands. It was Jesus the man who suffered and died and ascended to sit at the right hand of the father. It wasn't Jesus the man who created everything. Even those who affirm the Trinity doctrine must say that it was "The Word" that created the world, not Jesus the man.

Secondly, the term "son" is not without meaning. The term refers to the male offspring of a father. If one believes that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit comprise one "ousia", then it makes no sense to suggest that God the father sired God the son. At the least, the term indicates an intimate relationship between a man and his male heir. But even here, it makes no sence for two coequal beings to have a father/son relationship.

Only Jesus the man, can have a father/son relationship with God the father. The "Word" are coequals according to Trinitarian doctrine. One is not subordinate to the other. But the man Jesus is subordinate to the father.

For these two reasons, we understand that Paul is not saying that Jesus was the creator of all things.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm sorry, I am answering so many people I can't always remember what I said to whom. I went back and found the post where I pointed out the attributes of God. Look for that here. In that post, I highlighted in bold all those attributes of God that define "deity" according to the Bible. When I deny the deity of Jesus, I deny that Jesus is infinite, self-existing, immutable, self-sufficient, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and above all, Jesus is not transcendent (which is an attribute of God that I forgot to add to the list in the previous post.)

Then you are basically denying that He is God. Your beliefs are heretical just as we have been saying.

Jesus was born, he learned wisdom, he grew up, he got tired, he ate food, he bled, he sweated, he walked around, he was always located in a particular place. He is a human being, a man who obeyed a mother, cried for those whom he loved, suffered agony and pain, and was tempted by Satan. Paul argues that it was fitting for the Messiah to be a man, "For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted." And again he says, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin."

He was born as a human being, yes, but He existed before that. Scripture says that He created all things. He has always existed as God, but around 2,000 years ago He came to the earth as a human being. That doesn't mean He gave up His deity, though. He was called Emmanuel, which means "God with us". That means God came down to us in the form of a human being. Jesus is fully God, as you shamefully deny. He is both fully God and fully man. I acknowledge that isn't easy to comprehend, but it's true because scripture teaches it.

This is also a true statement, "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone." James 1:13. Luke records that Jesus was taken into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan, and Paul strongly argues that Jesus was tempted but without sin. James asserts that God can't be tempted. If we maintain that Jesus is God, then we are faced with a very serious and discouraging contradiction. The Bible isn't wrong that Jesus is God, but in order to sort out this apparent contradiction we need to review the principle of contradiction.

When I was debating atheists, we talked a lot about the Law of Contradiction. I borrowed the following definition from Encyclopedia.com

The principle of contradiction expresses the metaphysical and logical opposition between being and its negation. It is concisely expressed by Aristotle: "A thing cannot at the same time be and not be…" (Meta. 996b30); "the same attribute cannot at the same time belong and not belong to the same subject in the same respect…" (Meta. 1005b 19–20). Formulated in the logical order, it asserts that it is impossible to affirm and at the same time deny the same predicate of the same subject. [Encylopedia.com]​

That's the key. Jesus is God in some respect

God in some respect? What a ridiculous statement. He's either fully God or not God at all. There's no being "God in some respect". I can't read any more of this nonsense. Thank you for confirming that you do indeed deny the deity of Christ and you are a heretic that is shamefully promoting false teaching. It has been exposed. You should not be posting on a Christian forum because Christians believe that Jesus is God. It's a fundamental Christian belief that you deny.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Then you are basically denying that He is God. Your beliefs are heretical just as we have been saying.


He was born as a human being, yes, but He existed before that. Scripture says that He created all things. He has always existed as God, but around 2,000 years ago He came to the earth as a human being. That doesn't mean He gave up His deity, though. He was called Emmanuel, which means "God with us". That means God came down to us in the form of a human being. Jesus is fully God, as you shamefully deny. He is both fully God and fully man. I acknowledge that isn't easy to comprehend, but it's true because scripture teaches it.


God in some respect? What a ridiculous statement. He's either fully God or not God at all. There's no being "God in some respect". I can't read any more of this nonsense. Thank you for confirming that you do indeed deny the deity of Christ and you are a heretic that is shamefully promoting false teaching. It has been exposed. You should not be posting on a Christian forum because Christians believe that Jesus is God. It's a fundamental Christian belief that you deny.

I took the time to explain things in detail. That's all I can do. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord bless your entire family and friends.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I took the time to explain things in detail. That's all I can do. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord bless your entire family and friends.

May the Lord open your eyes to the truth of who Jesus really is.